Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

[Leaf473]

What issues?

Isaiah 66:22“For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

Hard to make the Sabbath end at the cross if it will be celebrated in heaven coming before the Lord from one Sabbath to another to worship Him, like we should do now on the day the Lord set aside for holy use.

Are you referring to the New Moon? There was not a calendar in biblical times, so to keep track of times and the new month they did so through the moon. A New Moon just means new month. It's possible we will have a special gathering before the Lord every New Moon, or perhaps months will be an even 28 days and every New Moon will also be the Sabbath, hard to say, but regardless of what the Lord has in mind for, the Sabbath continues, and I hope to part of God's heavenly kingdom. Those who do not want to keep the Sabbath now, I wonder if they would want to in heaven, God does not force us against our will and His will is not different in heaven as it is on this earth- which is why the Sabbath is made for man Mark 2:27 and man celebrated the first Sabbath in the presence of God Genesis 2:1-3 and Sabbath worship will be back in the presence of God when sin and sinners will be no more- just God's eternal rest where there will be no more rebellion to God.

The new moon / month is an interesting issue. Why would God be restoring things most people believe ended at the cross?

 

[ozso]

It's plurral and takes on a different meaning, plus index and commentary does not trump context. You need a thus saith the Lord to remove one of God's eternal commandments, which doesn't exist. The earthy temple was an EXACT replica of God's Heavenly Temple Hebrews 8:5 where the Ten Commandments resided unedited Deut 4:2 under His mercy seat in the Most Holy of His Temple. Rev 11:19

Every weekly Sabbath was kept decades after the Cross Acts 13:42-44, Acts 18:4 Acts 1:12, Acts 13:14 Acts 15:21 Acts 16:13, Acts 17:2 so the Sabbath commandment wasn't nailed to the cross and Jesus Himself said it would be kept long after the Cross Matthew 24:20. The sabbath(s) that ended was ordinances, handwritten and contrary. The weekly Sabbath was finger-written by God, holy and blessed and a commandment of God- the context doesn't fit.

Hebrews was written decades after the cross...

Hebrews 4:9 NIV There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

Rest here literally translates into Sabbath-keeping

sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: a sabbath rest
Usage: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

There are no contradictions in scripture, just misunderstandings and why we should never make a doctrine out of one verse especially when the context does not match up.

The word used for "Sabbath" in Colossians 2:16 is σαββάτων (sabbaton) 4521. Not σαββατισμός (sabbatismos) 4520.

In Colossians 2:16 Paul wrote "Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day"

Colossians 2:16 Lexicon: Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

You're going to have to do better than come up with a different word to show that when Paul wrote "Sabbath" σαββάτων (sabbaton) 4521 in Colossians 2:16 he did not mean "4521: the Sabbath, i.e. the seventh day (of the week)".

Context:

"13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

"16 Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Take care that no one keeps defrauding you of your prize by delighting in humility and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding firmly to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God." Colossians 2:13-19

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Post at least one instruction given after the cross to Gentiles or to Christians to keep the Sabbath day. Certainly, if important, it would be mentioned many times.

If you cant, then there is not much to talk about. Just trying to dismiss verses saying we do not have to observe days is not enough, if you do not have none saying the opposite.

Does God need to repeat Himself for one to obey and listen?

But here you go....


Hebrews 4:9 NIV There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

Rest here literally translates into Sabbath-keeping

sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: a sabbath rest
Usage: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The word used for "Sabbath" in Colossians 2:16 is σαββάτων (sabbaton) 4521 not σαββατισμός (sabbatismos) 4520.

I know that sabbaton is a form of rest and is in the plural not singular in Col 2:16 which refers to the ordiances, not the Sabbath commandment. Sabbatismos literally translates into Sabbath-keeping which remains for God's people which was written decades after the cross.

In Colossians 2:16 Paul wrote "Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath" Colossians 2:16 Lexicon: Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

You're going to have to do better than come up with a different word to show that when Paul wrote "Sabbath" σαββάτων (sabbaton) 4521 in Colossians 2:16 it did not mean "4521: the Sabbath, i.e. the seventh day (of the week).

I already proved it in context which was ignored. In Isaiah 66:23 the Sabbath there is the same as in the 4th commandment, which trumps everything- God's New Heaven and New Earth, so hard to make the Sabbath end at the cross if Jesus said it was to be kept decades after the cross Matthew 24:20 the disciples kept and will continue as it is one of God's eternal commandments Revelation 11:19 Matthew 5:19 showing the saints will be keeping in heaven Isaiah 66:22-23 because keeping God's commandments are eternal. He wrote them, He spoke them and any disagreement with them need to be taken up with Him as He is the Authority of His blessed and holy commandments.

If one wants to forget the one commandment God said to remember and is holy and blessed, its their free will. I think scripture was written exactly how it was indented to, are some things as clear as they could be, not by surface reading, but if we allow scripture to be read in context and not isolate a verse or two, it is very clear God did not delete the only commandment He started with the word Remember and the day He sanctified and set aside to spend time with man because we cannot sanctify ourselves, only God can. Eze 20:12

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The new moon / month is an interesting issue. Why would God be restoring things most people believe ended at the cross?

Who said the New Month would end? It does not say new moon festivals, which is different.

 

[trophy33]

Does God need to repeat Himself for one to obey and listen?

But here you go....


Hebrews 4:9 NIV There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

Rest here literally translates into Sabbath-keeping

sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: a sabbath rest
Usage: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

God has never given the observance of a day to Gentiles or Christians, so its not repeating. It would be a new thing done for the first time.

For if Joshua had given rest to them, He would not have spoken after this about another day. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one having entered into His rest, he also rested from his works, as God did from the own. Therefore we should be diligent to enter into that rest, so that no one should fall by the same example of disobedience.

The remaining rest to enter is Gospel prophecised by Joshua, not observing a day Hebrews have already be doing. Also, the text is not directed to Gentiles or Christians, but to Hebrews who were unsure if they should become Christians or to stay in Judaism.

 

[ozso]

I know that sabbaton is a form of rest and is in the plural not singular in Col 2:16 which refers to the ordiances, not the Sabbath commandment. Sabbatismos literally translates into Sabbath-keeping which remains for God's people which was written decades after the cross.

I already proved it in context which was ignored. In Isaiah 66:23 the Sabbath there is the same as in the 4th commandment, which trumps everything- God's New Heaven and New Earth, so hard to make the Sabbath end at the cross if Jesus said it was to be kept decades after the cross Matthew 24:20 the disciples kept and will continue as it is one of God's eternal commandments Revelation 11:19 Matthew 5:19 showing the saints will be keeping in heaven Isaiah 66:22-23 because keeping God's commandments are eternal. He wrote them, He spoke them and any disagreement with them need to be taken up with Him as He is the Authority of His blessed and holy commandments.

If one wants to forget the one commandment God said to remember and is holy and blessed, its their free will. I think scripture was written exactly how it was indented to, are some things as clear as they could be, not by surface reading, but if we allow scripture to be read in context and not isolate a verse or two, it is very clear God did not delete the only commandment He started with the word Remember and the day He sanctified and set aside to spend time with man because we cannot sanctify ourselves, only God can. Eze 20:12

None of that changes what Paul clearly wrote to new covenant Christians in Colossians 2:16 "Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath [σαββάτων (sabbaton) 4521: the Sabbath, i.e. the seventh day (of the week)] day"

You are wrong about it meaning annual sabbaths or anything else other than the Sabbath, i.e. the seventh day (of the week)

 

[SabbathBlessings]

God has never given the observance of a day to Gentiles of Christians, so its not repeating.

Until you read scripture...

Isaiah 56:6“Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant

For if Joshua had given rest to them, He would not have spoken after this about another day.

The Israelites did not enter their rest when they were supposed to due to their disobedience which is why another day was spoken for them to enter into Canaan. This is referring back to the wilderness and one would need to be familiar with the story of Joshua because that it what it is referring to. Joshua is not editing the commandments of God, that God just gave them, so this is a very bad argument.

So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

You missed a few verses- this whole passage is contrasting the Israelites during their trial in the wilderness and how they disobeyed and how we should not follow the same path of disobedience during our trial that is today.

Hebrews 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,

Hebrews 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

What did the Israelites disobey in the wilderness? Scripture tells us if we allow scripture to interpret scripture

Eze 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Which is why there is a plea TODAY- if we hear His voice do not harden your heart in rebellion

Hebrews 4:7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Which is a direct quote from David

Psalms 95:7 For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture,
And the sheep of His hand.
Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,

We are called not to rebel against God like the Israelites did and they profaned His Sabbath.

Which is why the Sabbath-rest remains for the people of God Heb 4:9 NIV which literally translates into Sabbath-keeping

For the one having entered into His rest, he also rested from his works, as God did from the own.

And when did God rest from His works. This very passage tells us. The same day God commanded us to as we are made in His image to follow Him, not do our own thing.

Hebrews 4: 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works

So how do we enter into His rest according to the very scripture you quoted?

For the one having entered into His rest, he also rested from his works, as God did from the own.

Therefore we should be diligent to enter into that rest, so that no one should fall by the same example of disobedience.

Yes, we should not follow the same path of disobedience as the Israelites who profaned God's holy Sabbath. Eze 20:21 Eze 20:13

The remaining rest to enter is Gospel prophecised by Joshua, not observing a day Hebrews have already be doing.

These are your words, not what is in the scripture.

In God's rest there is no rebellion to Him, including profaning His holy Sabbath commandment. Which is why the Holy Spirit pleas with us- Today if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts in rebellion to God.

 

[Valletta]

1. The Bible is not a "new belief of men". It is the word of God.

2. Whenever the threat of persecution to himself arose Erasmus would back away from his beliefs. That is not brave behavior.

The texts that comprise the Bible were mostly if not all written by the end of the first century. The canon of the Bible was established forever by the Catholic Church in the late 300s.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

None of that changes what Paul clearly wrote to new covenant Christians in Colossians 2:16 "Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath [σαββάτων (sabbaton) 4521: the Sabbath, i.e. the seventh day (of the week)] day"

You are wrong about it meaning annual sabbaths or anything else other than the Sabbath, i.e. the seventh day (of the week)

Suit yourself the context is there, how can the Sabbath commandment end at the cross if it shows it didn't. Because commandments are not ordinances, handwritten is not finger-written and holy and blessed is not the definition of cursed and contrary. Col 2:14 KJV But we have free will to choose any path we want. Guess we will need to leave it as agree to disagree and we will all find out soon enough, like I said I would not want to be wrong about this. If days don't matter, then no harm in keeping the Sabbath and spending holy time with God over another day that was deemed for works and labors, but if commandments of God are meant to be kept as told so in scripture, well we all will find out on Judgement Day, but by then our fates will be sealed. Rev 22:11

 

[trophy33]

Until you read scripture...

Isaiah 56:6“Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant

This is from the Jewish prophet talking to Jews about foreigners joining them. Its not for/about Christians or Gentiles as such.

The Israelites did not enter their rest when they were supposed to due to their disobedience which is why another day was spoken for them to enter into Canaan. This is referring back to the wilderness and one would need to be familiar with the story of Joshua because that it what it is referring to. Joshua is not editing the commandments of God, that God just gave them, so this is a very bad argument.

You missed a few verses- this whole passage is contrasting the Israelites during their trial in the wilderness and how they disobeyed and how we should not follow the same path of disobedience during our trial that is today.

Hebrews 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,

Hebrews 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

What did the Israelites disobey in the wilderness? Scripture tells us if we allow scripture to interpret scripture

Eze 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Which why there is a plea TODAY- if we hear His voice do not harden your heart in rebellion

Hebrews 4:7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Which is a direct quote from David

Psalms 95:7 For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture,
And the sheep of His hand.
Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,

We are called not to rebel against God like the Israelites did and they profaned His Sabbath.

Which is why the Sabbath-rest remains for the people of God Heb 4:9 NIV which literally translates into Sabbath-keeping



And when did God rest from His works. This very passage tells us.

Hebrews 4: 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works

So how do we enter into His rest according to the very scripture you quoted?



Yes, we should not follow the same path of disobedience as the Israelites who profaned God's holy Sabbath. Eze 20:21 Eze 20:13

These are your words, not what is in the scripture.

In God's rest there is no rebellion to Him, including profaning His holy Sabbath commandment. Which is why the Holy Spirit pleas with us- Today if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts in rebellion to God.

Oh mine, this is so long that I am not willing to go through it sentence by sentence and correct all your wrong ideas put into it. Keep it simple and stick to the text, without flooding it with other texts.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is from the Jewish prophet talking to Jews about foreigners joining them. Its not for Christians or Gentiles as such.


Oh mine, this is so long that I am not willing to go through it sentence by sentence. Keep it simple and stick to the text, without flooding it with other texts.

Sure, believe what you want.

Take care.

 

[trophy33]

Sure, believe what you want.

Take care.

Sure. I am a Christian, not a Jew living before Christ.

"Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law...
So the law was our guardian until Christ came...
Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."
Gal 3:23-25

 

[trophy33]

handwritten is not finger-written

?

The two greatest Mosaic law commandments are not in the Decalogue, so not finger-written and therefore lesser than the Decalogue?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

?

The two greatest Mosaic law commandments are not in the Decalogue, so not finger-written and therefore lesser than the Decalogue?

What does that have to do with finger written is not hand-written. It's different body parts. God finger wrote the Ten Commandments in stone. The law of Moses was handwritten by Moses on paper. Col 2:14 KJV is referring to what was handwritten.

 

[trophy33]

What does that have to do with finger written is not hand-written. It's different body parts. God finger wrote the Ten Commandments in stone. The law of Moses was handwritten by Moses on paper. Col 2:14 KJV is referring to what was handwritten.

I think that nobody really understands why you talk about some fingers etc like if it matters.

The two greatest commandments of the Mosaic Law are outside of the ten, i.e. not finger-written. How does that work for you? Did those ended in Col 2:14?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Sure. I am a Christian, not a Jew living before Christ.

"Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law...
So the law was our guardian until Christ came...
Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."
Gal 3:23-25

The Sabbath commandment is never referred to as the Sabbath of the Jews. It is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exodus 20:10 and His holy day Isaiah 58:13 that was made for mankind Mark 2:27 in Eden Gen 1:26 Genesis 2:1-3.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I think that nobody really understands why you talk about some fingers etc like if it matters.

God made the distinction, so it matters to God and gives context if one cares about that.

The two greatest commandments of the Mosaic Law are outside of the ten, i.e. not finger-written. How does that work for you? Did those ended in Col 2:14?

No the greatest commandments did not end, which is a summary of the Ten how to love God and love neighbor.

You're missing the context, but no point in trying to reason with you. Scripture tells us sometimes its best to shake the dust. I wish you well though in seeking Truth to His Word.

 

[trophy33]

The Sabbath commandment is never referred to as the Sabbath of the Jews. It is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exodus 20:10 and His holy day Isaiah 58:13 that was made for mankind Mark 2:27 in Eden Gen 1:26 Genesis 2:1-3.

The only NT text you used is Mk 2:27 and this one actually means the opposite you think it means. It means that Jesus is above Sabbath, not subdued to it.

 

[trophy33]

You're missing the context, but no point in trying to reason with you. Scripture tells us something its best to shake the dust. I wish you well though in seeking Truth to His Word.

The context is quite clear. You think that Col 2:14 blotted out everything except of the ten, because those were written by finger, not by hand (you like this division for some reason). Which does not work.