Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

[ozso]

So you take your theology from His avowed enemies and think He was a sinner? If that is true Peter being hung upside or Paul bring beheaded can save you from your sins. What need was there for Jesus to die on the cross if a sinner can save us?

You said If Jesus and the apostles had not kept the Sabbath the outrage from the "judaizers would have been all over the new testament. I pointed out that the Jews did believe that Jesus and the apostles had not kept the sabbath. That belief is one of the main reasons why they sought to kill Jesus

For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath... John 5:18

But as I see it God can not break His own commandment. Meaning that if God didn't keep the sabbath commandment, that would mean that He was no longer keeping that commandment in effect. God has supreme authority over the law he created for man to follow.

 

[ozso]

So, if I do not comply with the ceremonial laws which pointed forward to the Messiah I am a sinner? Now the command to wear tassels which were to keep the Israelites reminded of God and were not specifically part of the ceremonial law.

Are you aware that the entire book of Deuteronomy was kept in a pocket on the side of the ark of the covenant not under the mercy seat with the eternal law of God?

So all of Deuteronomy is abolished? The command is also in Numbers 15:38 btw. Why is it that part of Leviticus 11 must be obeyed, but all other laws are abolished?

Notice that the ark of the covenant was called that because it held the covenant God made with the Israelites.

What about the new covenant God made with the disciples of Christ, that doesn't include having the ark among us since God removed it from the face of the earth? What's the assessment of God having removed the ark from our midst?

 

[Leaf473]

So, if I do not comply with the ceremonial laws which pointed forward to the Messiah I am a sinner? Now the command to wear tassels which were to keep the Israelites reminded of God and were not specifically part of the ceremonial law.

Are you aware that the entire book of Deuteronomy was kept in a pocket on the side of the ark of the covenant not under the mercy seat with the eternal law of God?



Notice that the ark of the covenant was called that because it held the covenant God made with the Israelites.

Please excuse my jumping in here. How did you come to the conclusion that the law about tassels is not for today?

 

[Gary K]

Luther is not the "word of God." As to what Erasmus did, you were there? How in the world do you judge someone from so many centuries ago as a coward? The truth is that you don't know whether he was braver than you or I.

Where and when have I said Luther is the word of God? You know good and well I have never even hinted at that. D'Abigne says it with authority and quotes other reformers and Erasmus' own letters as his authority. The word "coward" is mine but I can see no other word that fits the case as well as it does?

You would not die for you faith like martyrs down throughout the ages have done? I would as I find no other place to go than the Bible to find what fills the needs of my heart.

 

[Valletta]

1. The Bible is not a "new belief of men".

When did I ever say the Bible is the "new belief of men?" I said no such thing.

 

[Gary K]

So all of Deuteronomy is abolished? The command is also in Numbers 15:38 btw. Why is it that part of Leviticus 11 must be obeyed, but all other laws are abolished?

What about the new covenant God made with the disciples of Christ, that doesn't include having the ark among us since God removed it from the face of the earth?

Who says the laws pointug forward to Jesus must still be obeyed? I sure don't. The temple vail between the holy and most holy compartments of the temple was torn in two at the moment of Jesus" death which is highly symbolic as the ark of the covenant was stored in the wilderness tabernacle and in Solomon's temple where the shekinah glory was displayed. It means that Gpd had withdrawn His presence from the temple. It6's why Jesus cried on His triumphal entry into Jerusalem on the weekend of His final Passover spent here on earth.

uk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

 

[Gary K]

Please excuse my jumping in here. How did you come to the conclusion that the law about tassels is not for today?

I guess I made that explanation to someone on another thread.

The ceremonial laws pointed forward to Jesus so when He died they came to an end as there was no longer a need to look forward for Him.

 

[Leaf473]

I guess I made that explanation to someone on another thread.

The ceremonial laws pointed forward to Jesus so when He died they came to an end as there was no longer a need to look forward for Him.

Okay, so far so good... How did you decide that it was a ceremonial law?

 

[Gary K]

When did I ever say the Bible is the "new belief of men?" I said no such thing.

You must have a short memory. I copied the following from a post of mine answering your assertion.

1. The Bible is not a "new belief of men". It is the word of God.

2. Whenever the threat of persecution to himself arose Erasmus would back away from his beliefs. That is not brave behavior.

Luther is not the "word of God." As to what Erasmus did, you were there? How in the world do you judge someone from so many centuries ago as a coward? The truth is that you don't know whether he was braver than you or I.

 

[Gary K]

Okay, so far so good... How did you decide that it was a ceremonial law?

Because it was not on the two tables of stone on which Jesus wrote the ten commandments.

Exo 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

 

[Leaf473]

Because it was not on the two tables of stone on which Jesus wrote the ten commandments.

That's cool. So... Everything that is not one of the Ten Commandments is a ceremonial law?

That would include laws about what is clean and unclean, I believe. Also the first and second greatest commandments.

Those things are ceremonial laws? Only the 10 commandments are not?

 

[Valletta]

What does that have to do with anything? If Luther's, Tyndale's, or Erasmus' Bible translations were fully RCC approved why did the RCC church declare it a crime worthy of death to own or read them?

I never said that all of those versions were approved by the Catholic Church. Nor did I say that it was a crime worthy of death to read them.

 

[HIM]

Sorry but the definition and usage of sabbatōn (4521) is quite clearly the weekly seventh day Sabbath. To prove that wrong you're going to have cite a different translation of sabbatōn from a concordance/lexicon source most Christian translators and scholars consider valid.

BDAG disagree

Or a different approach: how about taking this instruction and saying whether it is a commandment, statute, judgment, or ordinance? (Anyone who believes they can reasonably divide up the law of Moses is welcome to participate )

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 15:1 - New American Standard Bible

The Sabbatical Year - “At the end of every seven years you shall grant a release of debts.

www.biblegateway.com

so you recognize that Romans 10:6-8 and Deut 30:10-14 are saying the same thing as Jeremiah 31 and Heb 8 in respect to the new covenant?

 

[Gary K]

I never said that all of those versions were approved by the Catholic Church. Nor did I say that it was a crime worthy of death to read them.

Nope. I said that because I believe it

 

[Leaf473]

so you recognize that Romans 10:6-8 and Deut 30:10-14 are saying the same thing as Jeremiah 31 and Heb 8 in respect to the new covenant?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm asking you to demonstrate how your method works.

 

[Gary K]

That's cool. So... Everything that is not one of the Ten Commandments is a ceremonial law?

That would include laws about what is clean and unclean, I believe. Also the first and second greatest commandments.

Those things are ceremonial laws? Only the 10 commandments are not?

Nor what you refer too as the two greatest commandments. Jesus said that the law is the golden rule. Matthew 7:12 If you say SDAs require vegetarianism to be an SDA you're wrong. There are SDAs who eat meat and they are still members in good standing. You will live longer and be healthier if you are and that has been proven in multiple studies. One study showed an 11 year longer average lifespan because of the SDA diet that is no neat and low in sugar but that's up to the individual.

 

[HIM]

No, I'm not saying that

Waste of time if you don’t see.

I'm asking you to demonstrate how your method works

Simple Romans 10:6-8 paraphrases Deut 30:10-14. Which is saying the same thing but in different words as Jeremiah 31 and Hebrew 8. If you can’t see that you won’t see anything else. Take care.

 

[ozso]

Who says the laws pointug forward to Jesus must still be obeyed? I sure don't. The temple vail between the holy and most holy compartments of the temple was torn in two at the moment of Jesus" death which is highly symbolic as the ark of the covenant was stored in the wilderness tabernacle and in Solomon's temple where the shekinah glory was displayed. It means that Gpd had withdrawn His presence from the temple. It6's why Jesus cried on His triumphal entry into Jerusalem on the weekend of His final Passover spent here on earth.

We're on the same page regarding that. Being that the argument in this thread is Christians who don't practice the ceremonial law of the seventh day sabbath, bear the mark of the beast and aren't going to heaven. What's your view on that?

 

[trophy33]

Huh. So we demonstrate our love for God by disobeying Him? Odd way to demonstrate love. If you're married do you demonstrate your love for your wife by ignoring what she asks you to do? Secondly, you ignore the fact that Jesus was speaking to a highly educated Jew to whom the Sabbath was a really big deal. He was probably a Pharisee too as he was participating in a trap to catch Jesus advocating breaking the law of God.

As we are not disobeying God by not living according to His instructions to Adam or Noah, so also we are not disobeying God by not living according to His instructions to Moses and Israel.

We must realize that not everything in the Bible is written to us.

 

[trophy33]

Actually just the opposite is true. If Jesus and the apostles had not kept the Sabbath the outrage from the "judaizers would have been all over the new testament.

"Judaizers" writings did not get into the New Testament, because they were false teachers.

If they did write the New Testament books, I guess that Sabbath, clean foods and other shadows would be mentioned there at least as much as in the SDA books.