Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

[ozso]

This is denied by D'Aubigne in his lifelong project The History of the 15th Century Reformation. Erasmus' translation was made directly from the Hebrew and the Greek manuscripts of the old and new testaments as he was a highly accomplished scholar in Latin, Greek and Hebrew.

Yes but the Greek manuscripts were scribed by Catholic Greeks.

 

[Gary K]

And Paul says that both commandments and ordinances were set aside.

"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands (ἐντολῶν) and ordinances (δόγμασιν)".
Eph 2:15

-- the Mosaic law as a whole is set aside, no dividing needed

Context is always king. The surrounding verses invalidate your reasoning.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

 

[trophy33]

Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

There is no word "contained" in the Greek, so its irrelevant, but even though your favourite KJV added it, it does not change the point. The law is set aside, with both commandments and ordinances.

 

[trophy33]

Context is always king. The surrounding verses invalidate your reasoning.

You did not show how the surrounding verses invalidate "my" reasoning. You just quoted more of the text, without any commentary.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Apparently when Isaiah 66:23 says:

"From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord."

"Sabbath" means the 4th commandment sabbath.

But when Colossians 2:16 says:

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day"

"Sabbath" does not mean the 4th commandment Sabbath.

There’s more than one sabbath in the scripture- the Sabbath commandment that came before sin Gen 2:1-3, the annual sabbath(s) that came after. The weekly Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments that is in God’s heavenly temple which is what the earthy temple was modeled after Hebrews 8:5 Rev 11:19 so not possible the Sabbath commandment ended at the cross and context tells us that is only we would allow scripture to define scripture. Col 2:14 KJV

 

[ozso]

Col 2:14-17 KJV is not about the Sabbath commandment as context shows is about the annual sabbath(s) ordiances Col 2:14 KJV Gods Ten Commandments are in God’s heavenly Temple under His mercy seat unedited Deut 4:2 Heb 8:5 Rev 11:19 and what we will be judged by James 2:10-12 so not possible for any of the Ten to have ended at the cross, plus doesn’t reconcile with the rest of scripture. Decades after the cross Acts 13:42,44, Acts 18:4 Matt 24:20- for eternity Isa 66:22-23.

Why would Paul write sabbath day, when he meant a sabbath year?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is no word "contained" in the Greek, so it’s irrelevant, but even though your favourite KJV added it, it does not change the point. The law is set aside, with both commandments and ordinances.

The commandments does not reconcile with scripture because it is what defines sin Romans 7:7 we are not free to sin, it is what Christ came to save us from not it. Mat 1:21. Jesus said to not break the least of the commandments or to teach others quoting from the Ten Mat 5:19-30 so obviously we are not free to break. We all have to answer to a much greater authority so I will leave that tween you and God to sort out, but if we have faith in Jesus we should traits His teachings.

 

[trophy33]

we are not free to sin, it is what Christ came to save us from not it.

We are not free to sin, but we are free from the Mosaic law.

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way
of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."
R 7:6

 

[Gary K]

Yes but the Greek manuscripts were scribed by Catholic Greeks.

I can't say anything about that as it is most likely true. But, and this is a very large but, Erasmus' translation is in all respects essentially the same as Luther's and Tyndale's. And the RCC of that day considered those translations so heretical they burned people at the stake for simply having one of them and/or holding to the beliefs expressed in them.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Why would Paul write sabbath day, when he meant a sabbath year?

He didn’t its sabbath(s) plural. The Bible is not meant to be read just on the surface and will explain itself if we allow. Plus it doesn't fit the context of the Sabbath ending at the cross as it was kept decades after Christ died and Jesus indicated it would be kept well after the cross Matthew 24:20. The annual sabbath(s) ordinances all pointed to Christ who became our Sacrificial Lamb and Passover. 1 Cor 5:7 Sin is still defined as breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 which is why we needed sacrifices in the beginning for breaking God’s law.

Paul is quoting from in the old testament and look at the within scripture and chapter contexts and overall context and know what Paul is referring to from the old covenant scriptures. The Greek words used in Colossians 2:16 is in context to no judging others in regards to the **new moons,** **meat and drink offerings** and **the sabbaths** (**plural sabbaths are being referred to here as the Greek is genitive neuter plural application - GNP**) **in the annual feast days**. It is not talking about the weekly Sabbath. All of the above were shadows of things to come (Col 2:17). All the things listed in Col 2:16 were all shadows of things to come because they were all linked to the **old covenant Sanctuary laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings and the Levitical Priesthood for atonement for sin that all pointed to Jesus as the promised Messiah and Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all and Jesus as our true high priest that stands in the presence of God making intercession for us (see Hebrews** 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). Its **impossible** for God's creation seventh day Sabbath which is a **memorial** (Remember - Exodus 20:8) of creation to be a shadow law of anything because** it was made before sin **not after sin when man was in perfect harmony with the creator and **points backward as a memorial not forwards to things to come**. All shadow laws were made in the old covenant as part of God's plan of salvation **after mankind had sinned** as a promise of God's salvation from sin and of things to come in the future through Jesus. The creation Sabbath was made **before sin so cannot be a shadow law of anything **which is why it is a memorial in Exodus 20:8-11 that points backward to creation in Genesis 2:1-3.

The ceremonial sabbaths in the annual Feast days are different from God's creation weekly seventh day Sabbath that is Gods' 4th commandments and a memorial of creation pointing backwards to Genesis 2:1-3. The ceremonial sabbaths in the annual Feast days can fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle and are linked directly to the Sanctuary and Levitical Priesthood through animal sacrifices and blood atonement for sin.

This 'handwriting of ordinances' our Lord did blot out, take away, and nail to His cross. (Colossians 2: 14.) But the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away.... The moral law stands on an entirely different foundation from the ceremonial or ritual law. ...Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind and in all ages.
—JOHN WESLEY, Sermons on Several Occasions, 2-Vol. Edition, Vol. I, pages 221, 222.

 

[trophy33]

He didn’t its sabbath(s) plural.

Paul is quoting from in the old testament and look at the within scripture and chapter contexts and overall context and know what Paul is referring to from the old covenant scriptures. The Greek words used in Colossians 2:16 is in context to no judging others in regards to the **new moons,** **meat and drink offerings** and **the sabbaths** (**plural sabbaths are being referred to here as the Greek is genitive neuter plural application - GNP**) **in the annual feast days**. It is not talking about the weekly Sabbath. All of the above were shadows of things to come (Col 2:17). All the things listed in Col 2:16 were all shadows of things to come because they were all linked to the **old covenant Sanctuary laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings and the Levitical Priesthood for atonement for sin that all pointed to Jesus as the promised Messiah and Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all and Jesus as our true high priest that stands in the presence of God making intercession for us (see Hebrews** 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). Its **impossible** for God's creation seventh day Sabbath which is a **memorial** (Remember - Exodus 20:8) of creation to be a shadow law of anything because** it was made before sin **not after sin when man was in perfect harmony with the creator and **points backward as a memorial not forwards to things to come**. All shadow laws were made in the old covenant as part of God's plan of salvation **after mankind had sinned** as a promise of God's salvation from sin and of things to come in the future through Jesus. The creation Sabbath was made **before sin so cannot be a shadow law of anything **which is why it is a memorial in Exodus 20:8-11 that points backward to creation in Genesis 2:1-3.

Copy & paste conversation, again?

 

[ozso]

He didn’t its sabbath(s) plural. The Bible is not meant to be read just on the surface And will explain itself if we allow. Plus it doesn't fit the context of the Sabbath ending at the cross as it was kept decades after Christ died. The annual sabbath(s) ordinances all pointed to Christ who became our Sacrificial Lamb and Passover. Sin is still defined as breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 which is why we needed sacrifices in the beginning For breaking God’s law.

Paul is quoting from in the old testament and look at the within scripture and chapter contexts and overall context and know what Paul is referring to from the old covenant scriptures. The Greek words used in Colossians 2:16 is in context to no judging others in regards to the **new moons,** **meat and drink offerings** and **the sabbaths** (**plural sabbaths are being referred to here as the Greek is genitive neuter plural application - GNP**) **in the annual feast days**. It is not talking about the weekly Sabbath. All of the above were shadows of things to come (Col 2:17). All the things listed in Col 2:16 were all shadows of things to come because they were all linked to the **old covenant Sanctuary laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings and the Levitical Priesthood for atonement for sin that all pointed to Jesus as the promised Messiah and Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all and Jesus as our true high priest that stands in the presence of God making intercession for us (see Hebrews** 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). Its **impossible** for God's creation seventh day Sabbath which is a **memorial** (Remember - Exodus 20:8) of creation to be a shadow law of anything because** it was made before sin **not after sin when man was in perfect harmony with the creator and **points backward as a memorial not forwards to things to come**. All shadow laws were made in the old covenant as part of God's plan of salvation **after mankind had sinned** as a promise of God's salvation from sin and of things to come in the future through Jesus. The creation Sabbath was made **before sin so cannot be a shadow law of anything **which is why it is a memorial in Exodus 20:8-11 that points backward to creation in Genesis 2:1-3.

The ceremonial sabbaths in the annual Feast days are different from God's creation weekly seventh day Sabbath that is Gods' 4th commandments and a memorial of creation pointing backwards to Genesis 2:1-3. The ceremonial sabbaths in the annual Feast days can fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle and are linked directly to the Sanctuary and Levitical Priesthood through animal sacrifices and blood atonement for sin.

This 'handwriting of ordinances' our Lord did blot out, take away, and nail to His cross. (Colossians 2: 14.) But the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away.... The moral law stands on an entirely different foundation from the ceremonial or ritual law. ...Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind and in all ages.
—JOHN WESLEY, Sermons on Several Occasions, 2-Vol. Edition, Vol. I, pages 221, 222.

The word used in Colossians 2:16 is:
σαββάτων (sabbatōn)
sabbaton: the Sabbath, i.e. the seventh day (of the week)
Original Word: σάββατον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sabbaton
Phonetic Spelling: (sab'-bat-on)
Definition: the Sabbath, the seventh day (of the week)
Usage: the Sabbath, a week.

 

[trophy33]

....
—JOHN WESLEY, Sermons on Several Occasions, 2-Vol. Edition, Vol. I, pages 221, 222.

Why is J. Wesley's human opinion suddenly important, when you dismiss for example apostolic fathers' opinions as "its not Scripture"?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Copy & paste conversation, again?

Yes, I used part of a bible study from a friend that we worked on. Col 2:16-17 is one of the most misused and abused scriptures so I have spent a lot of time studying. Many surface readers don’t really want to know the Truth- despite its how we are sanctified John 17:17 and what sets us free.

 

[Gary K]

I don't recall ever hearing the claim before that Catholic Erasmus was really a Protestant. I wonder if the author realized that Erasmus finished translating the Greek New Testament the year BEFORE the year most often attributed to the start of the Protestant Reformation?

D'Abigne is the foremost historian on the Reformation to this day. His history of the Reformation was a lifelong project. It took him 55 years to publish all the books contained in it.

Erasmus was basically a forerunner of the Reformation. Unfortunately for him he was also cowardly and ended up turning against Luther with whom he was at one time friends with.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The word used in Colossians 2:16 is:
σαββάτων (sabbatōn)
sabbaton: the Sabbath, i.e. the seventh day (of the week)
Original Word: σάββατον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sabbaton
Phonetic Spelling: (sab'-bat-on)
Definition: the Sabbath, the seventh day (of the week)
Usage: the Sabbath, a week.

The plural sabbaths are being referred to here as the Greek is genitive neuter plural application - GNP

It’s the sabbath(s) contained in ordinances Col 2:14 KJV

 

[ozso]

Why is J. Wesley's human opinion suddenly important, when you dismiss for example apostolic fathers' opinions as "its not Scripture"?

Appeartly because he's not a founding church father. It's seems they're the ones who don't count.

 

[trophy33]

Yes, I used part of a bible study from a friend That we worked on. Col 2:16-17 iso be of the most misused and abused scriptures so I have spent a lot of time studying. Many surface readers don’t really want to know the Truth- despite its how we are sanctified John 17:17 and what sets us free.

An holyday (feast), or of the new moon, or of the sabbath.—Comp. Isaiah 1:13-14, “the new moons and sabbaths . . . the new moons and the appointed feasts My soul hateth;” also Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:13. The “feast” would seem to be one of the great festivals; the “new moon” the monthly, and the sabbath the weekly solemnity. With this passage it is natural to compare the similar passage in Galatians 4:10, “Ye observe days and months and times (special seasons) and years.” But there the specially Judaic character is not so expressly marked; and, in fact, the passage has a wider meaning (like Rom. 14:56), showing the different position which even Christian festivals held in Apostolic days. Here it is the Jewish festivals, and they alone, which are noted. It is obvious that St. Paul gives no hint of any succession of the Lord’s Day to be, in any strict sense, a “Christian Sabbath.” We know, indeed, that the Jewish Sabbath itself lingered in the Church, as having a kind of sacredness, kept sometimes as a fast, sometimes as a festival. But its observance was not of obligation. No man was to “judge” others in respect of it.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

2:8-17 There is a philosophy which rightly exercises our reasonable faculties; a study of the works of God, which leads us to the knowledge of God, and confirms our faith in him. But there is a philosophy which is vain and deceitful; and while it pleases men's fancies, hinders their faith: such are curious speculations about things above us, or no concern to us. Those who walk in the way of the world, are turned from following Christ. We have in Him the substance of all the shadows of the ceremonial law. All the defects of it are made up in the gospel of Christ, by his complete sacrifice for sin, and by the revelation of the will of God. To be complete, is to be furnished with all things necessary for salvation. By this one word complete, is shown that we have in Christ whatever is required. In him, not when we look to Christ, as though he were distant from us, but we are in him, when, by the power of the Spirit, we have faith wrought in our hearts by the Spirit, and we are united to our Head. The circumcision of the heart, the crucifixion of the flesh, the death and burial to sin and to the world, and the resurrection to newness of life, set forth in baptism, and by faith wrought in our hearts, prove that our sins are forgiven, and that we are fully delivered from the curse of the law. Through Christ, we, who were dead in sins, are quickened. Christ's death was the death of our sins; Christ's resurrection is the quickening of our souls. The law of ordinances, which was a yoke to the Jews, and a partition-wall to the Gentiles, the Lord Jesus took out of the way. When the substance was come, the shadows fled. Since every mortal man is, through the hand-writing of the law, guilty of death, how very dreadful is the condition of the ungodly and unholy, who trample under foot that blood of the Son of God, whereby alone this deadly hand-writing can be blotted out! Let not any be troubled about bigoted judgments which related to meats, or the Jewish solemnities. The setting apart a portion of our time for the worship and service of God, is a moral and unchangeable duty, but had no necessary dependence upon the seventh day of the week, the sabbath of the Jews. The first day of the week, or the Lord's day, is the time kept holy by Christians, in remembrance of Christ's resurrection. All the Jewish rites were shadows of gospel blessings.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

 

[trophy33]

The plural sabbaths are being referred to here as the Greek is genitive neuter plural application - GNP

It’s the sabbath(s) contained in ordinances Col 2:14 KJV

Meat - drink (βρώσει - πόσει)

Properly, eating, drinking, as 1 Corinthians 8:4; but the nouns are also used for that which is eaten or drunk, as John 4:32 (see note); John 6:27, John 6:55; Romans 14:17. For the subject-matter compare Romans 14:17; 1 Corinthians 8:8; Hebrews 9:10, and note on Mark 7:19. The Mosaic law contained very few provisions concerning drinks. See Leviticus 10:9; Leviticus 11:34, Leviticus 11:36; Numbers 6:3. Hence it is probable that the false teachers had extended the prohibitions as to the use of wine to all Christians. The Essenes abjured both wine and animal food.

Holyday (ἑορτῆς)

Festival or feast-day. The annual festivals. The word holyday is used in its earlier sense of a sacred day.

New moon (νουμηνίας)

Only here in the New Testament. The monthly festivals. The festival of the new moon is placed beside the Sabbath, Isaiah 1:13; Ezekiel 46:1. The day was celebrated by blowing of trumpets, special sacrifices, feasting, and religious instruction. Labor was suspended, and no national or private fasts were permitted to take place. The authorities were at great pains to fix accurately the commencement of the month denoted by the appearance of the new moon. Messengers were placed on commanding heights to watch the sky, and as soon as the new moon appeared, they hastened to communicate it to the synod, being allowed even to travel on the Sabbath for this purpose. The witnesses were assembled and examined, and when the judges were satisfied the president pronounced the words it is sanctified, and the day was declared new moon.

Sabbath days (σαββάτων)

The weekly festivals. Rev., correctly, day, the plural being used for the singular. See on Luke 4:31; see on Acts 20:7. The plural is only once used in the New Testament of more than a single day (Acts 17:2). The same enumeration of sacred seasons occurs 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 2 Chronicles 31:3; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11.
Vincent's Word Studies

 

[ozso]

The plural sabbaths are being referred to here as the Greek is genitive neuter plural application - GNP

It’s the sabbath(s) contained in ordinances Col 2:14 KJV

Sorry but the definition and usage of sabbatōn (4521) is quite clearly the weekly seventh day Sabbath. To prove that wrong you're going to have cite a different translation of sabbatōn from a concordance/lexicon source most Christian translators and scholars consider valid.