throwing away-experimenting with fertilized eggs

[mnbvcxz87]

Absolutely. Have you seen what they have done to disfigured people? It's amazing. I'm really thankful for that particular field of medicine.

Well that verges, to me on a whole other issue, which is the values of society. If appearance was held in no regard then those disfigured would have no reason to want to change their appearance. But that's an ideal which is only a potential, so I'd probably agree with you for now, but only for that field of cosmetics.

The majority of it, lipgloss those sort of things is what I meant.

 

[Adriac]

What's the point of any field of medicine? It's all about improving quality of life. You can argue why a coronary artery bypass is more important than a hip replacement is more important than a collagen lip injection if you like, and in fact you will find that such priorities exist in the medical world. But saying that a certain procedure simply shouldn't exist? Whatever happened to making everyone happier, all the time?

 

[fillerbunny]

[/font]

Well that verges, to me on a whole other issue, which is the values of society. If appearance was held in no regard then those disfigured would have no reason to want to change their appearance.

But the reality is, things are what they are.

Not to mention, it's not necessarily just a matter of appearances. Often times, when one is born with (or acquires) a disfigurement, there are medical reasons for surgical intervention.

But that's an ideal which is only a potential, so I'd probably agree with you for now, but only for that field of cosmetics.

The majority of it, lipgloss those sort of things is what I meant.

A perfect world isn't a potential, it's an impossibility.

If surgical reconstruction of disfigured parts- even if it's not medically necessary- makes someone happy, who are we to begrudge them that choice?

If a couple having difficulties conceiving chooses to undergo IVF, what harm is done?

Who are we to decide what is right for another, to tell him how he ought to live his life? He isn't hurting anyone. Who are we to judge?

 

[TricksterWolf]

& stem cell research is wrong. you don't experiment on innocent little babies who can't speak up for themselves. i don't recall anyone getting their permission first to experiment on them and i don't recall them getting their permission to make their whole purpose in life to be part of a lab experiment.

Not all stem cell research involves "experimenting on little babies", and this is why even conservative groups allow some types of stem cell research.

I agree this is an ethically pronounced issue, though.

Trickster

 

[TricksterWolf]

Absolutely. Have you seen what they have done to disfigured people? It's amazing. I'm really thankful for that particular field of medicine.

Maybe it would be better if people learned to accept that some of us look different, though... I don't know. People seem very intolerant of deviance of form.

Trickster

 

[flicka]

Well that verges, to me on a whole other issue, which is the values of society. If appearance was held in no regard then those disfigured would have no reason to want to change their appearance. But that's an ideal which is only a potential, so I'd probably agree with you for now, but only for that field of cosmetics.

Maybe it would be better if people learned to accept that some of us look different, though... I don't know. People seem very intolerant of deviance of form.

Maybe....but I'm thinking it's pretty important to the person with the 12 inch growth coming out of their face.

Seriously, it's not just about looking good. Sometimes it's about looking 'normal' and being able to function in society.

We could go on forever about 'what should be' but that isn't going to help anyone is it? Cosmetic surgery does help so I personally think it's a great thing. And certainly more attainable then the entire human race suddenly 'accepting' things, especially if those things are on YOUR face.

 

[TricksterWolf]

Maybe....but I'm thinking it's pretty important to the person with the 12 inch growth coming out of their face.

Seriously, it's not just about looking good. Sometimes it's about looking 'normal' and being able to function in society.

We could go on forever about 'what should be' but that isn't going to help anyone is it? Cosmetic surgery does help so I personally think it's a great thing. And certainly more attainable then the entire human race suddenly 'accepting' things, especially if those things are on YOUR face.

I agree cosmetic surgery is good.

I still wish "looking normal" didn't matter.

Trickster

 

[kopilo]

God forbid someone should want to fulfill a dream to raise a child of their own. (I do think adoption is an option to, but some people want a child of their own dna...)

If science offers these people with hope and a way to do it, then let them do it. Its not a waste of time or money for them.

They could adopt, yes at this point in time I don't think we have a lack of children in this world more then a lack of parents.

I don't get why people get so hung up on "a child of their own", it's not an object, it's not a pet, in essance they are never yours, we do not belong to anyone. We can only join with other people and keep ourselves joined by our own moral and ethic codes. So when raising a child, someone is not raising something that is theirs, it never was and never will be, they are raising another person.

 

[TheMissus]

They could adopt, yes at this point in time I don't think we have a lack of children in this world more then a lack of parents.

I don't get why people get so hung up on "a child of their own", it's not an object, it's not a pet, in essance they are never yours, we do not belong to anyone. We can only join with other people and keep ourselves joined by our own moral and ethic codes. So when raising a child, someone is not raising something that is theirs, it never was and never will be, they are raising another person.

People are selfish.

 

[sparklecat]

No I don't want life to be unfair artificially. My point is that there are more important things for the scientists and money, equipment, time to be put into.

It's their money and time. Not yours.

 

[sparklecat]

They could adopt, yes at this point in time I don't think we have a lack of children in this world more then a lack of parents.

I don't get why people get so hung up on "a child of their own", it's not an object, it's not a pet, in essance they are never yours, we do not belong to anyone. We can only join with other people and keep ourselves joined by our own moral and ethic codes. So when raising a child, someone is not raising something that is theirs, it never was and never will be, they are raising another person.

Well, to speak for myself and my partner, we want biological children of our own because we want them to have our genes. We are both highly intelligent, think more intelligent people will improve the world in many of the ways that matter to us, and feel that our having children together is likely to result in more geniuses.


Of course, we're likely to end up with a couple of autistic children as well. We'll see.

 

[fillerbunny]

My question is, in terms of the adoption issue.. how is it any more selfish to choose to conceive via IVF than it would be to conceive through any other means?

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

It's their money and time. Not yours.

Unless it's paid for by the NHS, which I dont agree with. IVF should be paid for by the couple, if you can't afford the treatment you can't afford to bring up a child.

 

[sparklecat]

Unless it's paid for by the NHS, which I dont agree with. IVF should be paid for by the couple, if you can't afford the treatment you can't afford to bring up a child.

It's covered by the NHS? Didn't know that. But yes, in that case I would agree. I don't want to be paying for someone else's unnecessary procedure.

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

It's covered by the NHS? Didn't know that. But yes, in that case I would agree. I don't want to be paying for someone else's unnecessary procedure.

I believe the first 2 or 3 attempts (cycles) are.

 

[mnbvcxz87]

I don't get why people get so hung up on "a child of their own", it's not an object, it's not a pet, in essance they are never yours, we do not belong to anyone. We can only join with other people and keep ourselves joined by our own moral and ethic codes. So when raising a child, someone is not raising something that is theirs, it never was and never will be, they are raising another person.

Ah I love that reply. That's what I was alluding to earlier, raising a child is just an adult raising a young, as another ideal which is only a potential, I'd wish that we could see eachother in this light. As all being a family, rather than our current idea of families. From that perspective there would be no difference in how you see any child, wehter you produced them or not.

Also sparkle I'm not trying to undermine anyone's desire to have a child or anything, but I don't think it's a good use of those resources what with the many viruses that should be worked on. And also, there's so many children who need good foster homes that the IVF thing really should be on the back burner...

 

[TheMissus]

Hey Ace, did you ever consider that the ridiculous amount of money that people pay for IVF might be funding research for "worthier" causes?

 

[Adriac]

[/FONT]

Ah I love that reply. That's what I was alluding to earlier, raising a child is just an adult raising a young, as another ideal which is only a potential, I'd wish that we could see eachother in this light. As all being a family, rather than our current idea of families. From that perspective there would be no difference in how you see any child, wehter you produced them or not.

Also sparkle I'm not trying to undermine anyone's desire to have a child or anything, but I don't think it's a good use of those resources what with the many viruses that should be worked on. And also, there's so many children who need good foster homes that the IVF thing really should be on the back burner...

There are many, many people in the world who really should not reproduce. If you think it's going to make the world a better place to restrict the one group that tries the hardest simply to conceive, you need to take another good long look at who's having kids.

 

[TricksterWolf]

There are many, many people in the world who really should not reproduce. If you think it's going to make the world a better place to restrict the one group that tries the hardest simply to conceive, you need to take another good long look at who's having kids.

I don't agree that people trying over and over to get IVF are somehow "virtuous" for being that eager. Perhaps they will be good parents, perhaps not. There are a lot of children out there that need parents already. Granted, most of them don't have "white skin", but they are still children in need.

Trickster

 

[Adriac]

I'm not really sure why you put "virtuous" in quotes like that, since I'm reasonably certain I said nothing even resembling that... I'm just saying, spending that kind of time and money indicates a baseline of care for the child which is well above (sad though it is to say) many "natural" parents.