Three powerful challenges to theistic evolutionists

[Martyrs44]

Three questions which have not been answered yet...only deflected.

1. Can you give a scripture from God's Word that teaches evolution?

2. Can you name 1st century Christians who believed in evolution? If so, quote them.

3. Why did God Almighty wait until 1859 (date of Origin of the Species by Darwin) to inform all of us about the true origins of our world?

Please cover all three and do not change the subject.

 

[Assyrian]

...and do not change the subject.

Why not change the subject if shows your premise is wrong? If you have to protect the faulty basis of your argument with a restriction like that, the three arguments can't be all that powerful can they?

 

[Martyrs44]

He is on ignore as are a few others. Anyone else besides those who cannot be reasoned with?

 

[Assyrian]

He is on ignore as are a few others. Anyone else besides those who cannot be reasoned with?

Of course I can be reasoned with. Have you considered the possibility that creationism is just plain wrong and that is why you cannot come up with any decent arguments for it? Or you can just put everybody on ignore when they point out the holes in your arguments.

 

[Keachian]

Three questions which have not been answered yet...only deflected.

1. Can you give a scripture from God's Word that teaches evolution?

Not explicitly, the closest I can give you is God telling the earth to bring forth plants/animals and God uses part of the world to create life.

2. Can you name 1st century Christians who believed in evolution? If so, quote them.

3. Why did God Almighty wait until 1859 (date of Origin of the Species by Darwin) to inform all of us about the true origins of our world?

Well in my mind the answer to the both of these is the same: it is not theologically relevant and quite easily fits into the difference of opinion that is found in Romans 14 that I have quoted in my signature.

 

[elopez]

1. Can you give a scripture from God's Word that teaches evolution?

No, but Scripture is not needed in this case. We adhere to many other things that are not found in the Bible, and that wouldn't make them false. For example the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, but we use the word to refer to the triune nature of God.

2. Can you name 1st century Christians who believed in evolution? If so, quote them.

What is the relevance to this question? I would hope you know the answer is no, but I'm wondering why you wouldn't just skip the rhetorical and get to the point by asking what you really want.

3. Why did God Almighty wait until 1859 (date of Origin of the Species by Darwin) to inform all of us about the true origins of our world?

There were pre-Darwin theories of evolution, so it wasn't at all new in 1859. And again, what relevance to dates have with validity?

 

[Martyrs44]

No, but Scripture is not needed in this case. We adhere to many other things that are not found in the Bible, and that wouldn't make them false. For example the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, but we use the word to refer to the triune nature of God.

First, thanks for your response. Nonetheless, your answer is skirting the issue. the origin of our world IS found in scripture in no uncertain terms...but evolution is not found even as a possible explanation.

What is the relevance to this question? I would hope you know the answer is no, but I'm wondering why you wouldn't just skip the rhetorical and get to the point by asking what you really want.]

It should be obvious without asking: All the Christians taught by the apostles believed in the six day creation just as Moses revealed it in Genesis and Jesus confirmed all that Moses said. AND, those church fathers who followed in their footsteps believed what they learned from John, Peter, Paul, etc. with but rare exceptions:

Early Church Fathers Believed in Young Earth Recent Creation

There were pre-Darwin theories of evolution, so it wasn't at all new in 1859. And again, what relevance to dates have with validity?

You skirted the question again. The question is 'why would God wait until Darwin' to educate His people of the 'whole truth about origins'?

Were the people of Bible times too stupid or ignorant to grasp what the 'mighty intellects' of neo-Darwinians think they now understand?

Yes, I am being a bit sarcastic. I am distressed with those who tossed out six-day creation teaching of the Bible even though God has made it abundantly clear that He meant what He said with dozens of references in both the O.T. and the N.T. that Moses account was historical and not a myth nor a storybook tale.

 

[Martyrs44]

Not explicitly, the closest I can give you is God telling the earth to bring forth plants/animals and God uses part of the world to create life.

Even that isn't close. God told you explicitly in over a dozen passages that every living creature reproduces 'after it's kind'. So why don't you believe Him?

Well in my mind the answer to the both of these is the same: it is not theologically relevant and quite easily fits into the difference of opinion that is found in Romans 14 that I have quoted in my signature.

No, it doesn't. There is no other option than to believe what God says as historical and literal just as the other authors verified those events with many infallible proofs. The creation of the world by God in six days and the flood of Noah is just as certain and historical as was the resurrection and as the Second coming of Christ will be.

Nonetheless, thank you for your response.

 

[gluadys]

Three questions which have not been answered yet...only deflected.

1. Can you give a scripture from God's Word that teaches evolution?

2. Can you name 1st century Christians who believed in evolution? If so, quote them.

3. Why did God Almighty wait until 1859 (date of Origin of the Species by Darwin) to inform all of us about the true origins of our world?

Please cover all three and do not change the subject.

Actually they have been answered before. Perhaps you missed them. I don't see why any of them pose a challenge to theistic evolution.

Anyway here are the answers:

1. No. There is no reference to any modern (or even medieval) science in scripture.

2. No, of course not. Just as one can find no 1st century Christian who believed the earth orbited the sun or doubted spontaneous generation.

3. Who can fathom the mind of God? Here are some other things God chose not to reveal until many centuries after the scriptures were written:

-the movement of the earth around the sun (1543)
-that all life is made up of microscopic living cells (1665)
-that all life comes from life and no species, not even microbes are spontaneously generated (1859)
-the existence of bacteria (1870) and it was still later that the role of pathogenic bacteria in causing disease was known.
-the existence of chromosomes (1882) and it was still later that their role in heredity was known
-the structure of the DNA molecule (1953)
-the DNA code for generating proteins (1961)

In 1912, Wegener suggested continental drift, but his theory didn't gain wide acceptance until the 1950's
Hubble formulated his constant in 1927, but the theory of the Big Bang was not fully formulated until 1968-70.

It seems that God is quite content to let us discover major aspects of the true origins of our world through human ingenuity.

And that suggests to me that perhaps the timing and mechanics of how the world originated has little theological importance. What is spiritually important is that the world is God's creation, we are God's creation, made to love and be loved by God.

 

[Martyrs44]

This thread is for those who have not had their intellect and critical thinking skills eradicated by neo-Darwinian newspeak.

Thank you.

 

[sfs]

This thread is for those who have not had their intellect and critical thinking skills eradicated by neo-Darwinian newspeak.

Thank you.

[Martyrs44 inserts fingers in ears and starts humming.]
Why do you ask questions if you don't want to read the answers? Why do you issue "challenges" to people who disagree with you, and then announce that you're not interested in hearing responses from people who disagree with you?

 

[Keachian]

Even that isn't close. God told you explicitly in over a dozen passages that every living creature reproduces 'after it's kind'. So why don't you believe Him?

I'm a tetrapodal animal, aren't you? I will give birth to other tetrapods and my ancestors have all been tetrapods since the first tetrapod that God created, this is reproducing after my own kind it it not?

No, it doesn't. There is no other option than to believe what God says as historical and literal just as the other authors verified those events with many infallible proofs. The creation of the world by God in six days and the flood of Noah is just as certain and historical as was the resurrection and as the Second coming of Christ will be.

We've talked about my understanding of the sweep of biblical narrative before but let's just recap, Gen 1 is a temple inauguration account where God finishes his creation of the universe, whether creation took an instant or 14 billion years before that is not covered by the Bible, all we need to know is as Genesis 1:1 puts it; "God created the heavens and the earth."

Nonetheless, thank you for your response.

Thank you for your civility

 

[Martyrs44]

I'm a tetrapodal animal, aren't you? I will give birth to other tetrapods and my ancestors have all been tetrapods since the first tetrapod that God created, this is reproducing after my own kind it it not?

No. I am a man created in the image of God...just like Adam was. We did not descend from lower forms of life. Believe God's Word, not evolution.

We've talked about my understanding of the sweep of biblical narrative before but let's just recap, Gen 1 is a temple inauguration account where God finishes his creation of the universe, whether creation took an instant or 14 billion years before that is not covered by the Bible, all we need to know is as Genesis 1:1 puts it; "God created the heavens and the earth."

Closer to 6,000 yrs. Grab your pocket calculator and start with Genesis chapter five. Moses didn't lie and he didn't miss a beat.

Thank you for your civility

O.k.

 

[Martyrs44]

[Martyrs44 inserts fingers in ears and starts humming.]

Why do you ask questions if you don't want to read the answers? Why do you issue "challenges" to people who disagree with you, and then announce that you're not interested in hearing responses from people who disagree with you?

You got that idea while looking in the mirror, right?

I am hearing the responses and they are not able to answer, at least not directly. Like you they are merely declaring the legitimate questions as illegitimate...arbitrarily.

P.S. You didn't do any better than they did because you gave no answers either. You just wish to take a pot shot at Martyrs44.

 

[Keachian]

No. I am a man created in the image of God...just like Adam was.

Oh I'm one of those as well, however I prefer to think of myself as not being like Adam, I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer the man of Adam that lives in me, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. The old man that I was in Adam has been put to death, I am now a new creation in Christ! Hallelujah!

We did not descend from lower forms of life. Believe God's Word, not evolution.

I do believe God's word, physically we have the same origin as the animals that of the dust, our mortality if you will, it is only because God condescended to us and raised us up that we could first become the Image of God in Adam, he failed at this and so as we imitated him we also failed, but God sent us a new Adam, the Christ so that we might be ransomed and have a better and complete example of what it means to be in the Image of God and so because we have been given grace we respond.

<snip>
I don't really want to continue arguing this as it is mainly an irrelevance to me, again from my perspective God could have spent an instant creating the universe or 14 billion years in both cases he finishes it up with a temple inauguration week recorded in Genesis 1. I do not believe that a cultural contextual reading of Genesis 1-3 gives us any indication one way or the other and merely says that God created.

 

[Martyrs44]

Quote: "I don't really want to continue arguing this as it is mainly an irrelevance to me."

O.k. But if that is true why did you just spend so much time arguing your point?

No need to answer that. You have your reasons.

 

[Keachian]

Quote: "I don't really want to continue arguing this as it is mainly an irrelevance to me."

O.k. But if that is true why did you just spend so much time arguing your point?

No need to answer that. You have your reasons.

That was in response to where you said:

Closer to 6,000 yrs. Grab your pocket calculator and start with Genesis chapter five. Moses didn't lie and he didn't miss a beat.

I had originally written something I think wasn't that conducive to the discussion, especially as you didn't address my beliefs and instead threw a red herring at me, here is a better response to your above quote: creation was finished 6,000 years ago, we both agree on this point, we differ on what the point of Gen 1 is and I will freely admit that, you choose to read it for what it is without any outside considerations, I read it for what it is with consideration to the cultural (both its own and those around its own) views. Just as Christianity isn't played out in a vacuum (we need other Christians around us) I don't think we can treat the Bible as if it has no cultural ties (or to a lesser extent treat our culture as if it is the culture to which the Bible was written to).

 

[sfs]

You got that idea while looking in the mirror, right?

No, I got that reading your post. Why didn't you answer my questions?

I am hearing the responses and they are not able to answer, at least not directly. Like you they are merely declaring the legitimate questions as illegitimate...arbitrarily.

P.S. You didn't do any better than they did because you gave no answers either. You just wish to take a pot shot at Martyrs44.

Oh, the answers are trivial. They are, "no", "no", and "what kind of blasphemous nitwit would think he could guess why God chooses to do things?" Why you think these are powerful challenges I have no idea.

 

[rturner76]

then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
(Genesis 2:7 ESV)

Boo-Yah We were made out of the earth itself. It doesn't say how long God took to do this. It doesn't say "in an instant" only that God formed man from the dust of the ground. From the Earth itself. Sounds a bit like evolution

I know I know. It's creepy and I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you but why doubt God's ability to do this?

 

[Keachian]

No, I got that reading your post. Why didn't you answer my questions?

Oh, the answers are trivial. They are, "no", "no", and "what kind of blasphemous nitwit would think he could guess why God chooses to do things?" Why you think these are powerful challenges I have no idea.

I would have thought the third would be partly to do with God speaking in lisps with us as nurses are wont to do with little children? Such modes of expression, therefore, do not so much express what kind of a being God is, as accommodate the knowledge of him to our feebleness. In doing so, he must, of course, stoop far below his proper height.

But then as you say it's not really my place to say one way or the other, that's just the understanding I currently have I do not put any stock into it.