Three apostolic sees

[Always in His Presence]

Last time it was the door of a cathedral church in a German town and not the Vatican.

But seeing the way the topic of discussion has shifted from the Three Apostolic sees may I conclude that you've all be persuaded by the overwhelming evidence in support of the claims of the Holy See?

No, you may not. At least not accurately:thumbsup

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No, you may not. At least not accurately:thumbsup

I am disappointed

 

[chevyontheriver]

I don’t know to what extent corruption in the curia remains a problem, but to the extent it is a problem, it pales in comparison to the disaster represented by Fiducia Supplicans.

I think the Lavender Mafia, probably the biggest part of the corruption problem presently, makes goofy policy like that of Fiducia Supplicans easy to be written. Not all corruption is homosexual. Some is prelates who like their fancy things more than they like Jesus. Some of it is prelates who attend to women and girls more than their vows. And some infiltration by Masons and Satanists. They mostly know each other's secrets so coming clean gets really hard. So they keep each other happy at the expense of the true and the good and the beautiful.

We had a good and able jurist in cardinal Burke, a good and able liturgist in cardinal Sarah, and a good and able financial watchdog in cardinal Pell. They all got demoted out.

Additionally, Rorate Caeli has raised concerns about how the trials by Vatican courts of certain officials accused of corruption have been conducted, for example, the defense were unable to subpoena important witnesses including Pope Francis. I believe a reform of the judiciary of the Vatican City in order to ensure a fair and independent court system that operates according to the same standards of fairness and impartiality as one would experience in any European country is a prerequisite to further criminal probes concerning corruption, since right now there exists a risk that the wrong people might be imprisoned as a result of the lack of a fully independent judiciary in which defendants have the ability to call as witnesses anyone who can provide relevant testimony, even the Pope.

I actually wish the Papal States still existed - as I see it, their abolition was the result of an illegal coup d’etat orchestrated by the Italian Nationalists under Giuseppe Garibaldi, and the Vatican City, as much as possible, should be governed as the continuation of the Papal States. I think it was a mistake of Pope Paul VI to abolish the Vatican Nobility and to reduce the number of citizens of the Vatican.

That ship sailed a long time ago. If Italy collapses as one of the first in a general collapse of European governments I could see various Muslim states more likely than Papal states.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It seems to me that a priest who wishes to bless the union of a same sex couple without implying the Church's blessing and approval, may be less of a problem than a priest or other religious or a teacher or some other Church employee who is molesting children.

I'd say there are chances they are the same folks.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'd say there are chances they are the same folks.

there are chances that they are the same folk in some cases.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'd say there are chances they are the same folks.

Absolutely.

 

[prodromos]

The third on the left.

That is the public restroom.

 

[The Liturgist]

That ship sailed a long time ago. If Italy collapses as one of the first in a general collapse of European governments I could see various Muslim states more likely than Papal states.

Indeed. We need a conservative Pope who will require Catholic couples to have as many children as they are able to safely bear, and who will also advocate for an immigration policy for Europe that would preferentially accommodate Christians, and also, launch aggressive evangelization efforts in Bosnia, Albania, Central Asia and certain other places, such as Ghana in West Africa, where the Muslims are not particularly devout and where radicalization is uncommon. Also, I believe the Kurdish people, particularly the Yarsanis and Alevis, and the Bektasi Sufis, are ripe for conversion.

The Yazidis are a bit more of a challenge due to their strict endogamy although if one could get to Baba Sheikh, their spiritual leader, and follow a planned conversion process that would begin by stressing the numerous Christian and crypto-Christian aspects of their religion, it could be done; it helps that Yazidis like Christians and dislike Muslims and are clearly descended from a heretical Christian sect, and also that they lack any widely distributed scriptures, the two religious texts attributed to them being regarded as forgeries.

At any rate, a conservative Pope needs to exert maximum pressure on his flock to increase the birth rate in areas where the ratio of Christians to Muslims is declining.

Fortunately, among Copts, Maronites, Syriacs, Assyrians and Chaldeans, and also among the Mar Thoma Christians who have been present in India since the 1st century, and other more recent Indian Christian populations, both in their homeland and the diaspora, the birthrate is high; ironically these are also some of the populations most at risk for genocide, but they will not go quietly into the night. What is needed is for Western European Christians to increase their birthrate in response to the recent influx of immigrants.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Indeed. We need a conservative Pope who will require Catholic couples to have as many children as they are able to safely bear, and who will also advocate for an immigration policy for Europe that would preferentially accommodate Christians, and also, launch aggressive evangelization efforts in Bosnia, Albania, Central Asia and certain other places, such as Ghana in West Africa, where the Muslims are not particularly devout and where radicalization is uncommon. Also, I believe the Kurdish people, particularly the Yarsanis and Alevis, and the Bektasi Sufis, are ripe for conversion.

The Yazidis are a bit more of a challenge due to their strict endogamy although if one could get to Baba Sheikh, their spiritual leader, and follow a planned conversion process that would begin by stressing the numerous Christian and crypto-Christian aspects of their religion, it could be done; it helps that Yazidis like Christians and dislike Muslims and are clearly descended from a heretical Christian sect, and also that they lack any widely distributed scriptures, the two religious texts attributed to them being regarded as forgeries.

At any rate, a conservative Pope needs to exert maximum pressure on his flock to increase the birth rate in areas where the ratio of Christians to Muslims is declining.

Fortunately, among Copts, Maronites, Syriacs, Assyrians and Chaldeans, and also among the Mar Thoma Christians who have been present in India since the 1st century, and other more recent Indian Christian populations, both in their homeland and the diaspora, the birthrate is high; ironically these are also some of the populations most at risk for genocide, but they will not go quietly into the night. What is needed is for Western European Christians to increase their birthrate in response to the recent influx of immigrants.

Or they will go the way of North African Christianity, which is essentially nonexistent now after flourishing 1500 years ago. There is no guarantee that Christianity will survive in any particular region even if there is a guarantee it will survive overall.

 

[dzheremi]

Or they will go the way of North African Christianity

Egypt is in North Africa. The largest single church in the MENA region (and its oldest/most well-established) is in North Africa.

You're right if you mean the previously-existing Latin churches in what is now Algeria, Tunisia, etc., sadly. Hopefully that resistance to the faith will continue to change, as it is currently doing in some of the distinctly non-Arab parts of the region (like in the Kabylia region, where in Tizi Ouzou -- the second largest city in the region -- the percentage of Christians is said to be between 1 and 5%), though they are generally founding Protestant house churches, rather than converting to Catholicism.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Egypt is in North Africa. The largest single church in the MENA region (and its oldest/most well-established) is in North Africa.

Are the Copts a majority of Egyptians? True, they hang on. But it isn't what it was. You can nit-pick as you wish.

 

[dzheremi]

Are the Copts a majority of Egyptians? True, they hang on. But it isn't what it was. You can nit-pick as you wish.

In the context of the post I was replying to, I think hanging on is worth a lot more than you seem to be implying here, since you were commenting on what could happen if the people of your particular church can't do so.

And it's not nitpicking. If I said "Christianity is basically dead in Europe since no one goes to church anymore", would it be nitpicking to point out that church attendance is much better in certain Roman Catholic countries like Malta and Poland than in, say, England or the Czech Republic? I don't think so, because those RC places don't become not-Europe just because they buck a more general trend observed elsewhere among other people on the continent. Europe's a big place, after all. So's the MENA region, which is after all the cradle of Christianity on the entire African continent, so I would hope people on this website more generally would care to look into how it is before dismissing it as dead to make a point about an entirely different church that comes from a different cultural, social, and historical context.

 

[The Liturgist]

Or they will go the way of North African Christianity, which is essentially nonexistent now after flourishing 1500 years ago. There is no guarantee that Christianity will survive in any particular region even if there is a guarantee it will survive overall.

The Northwest Africans were exterminated by ex-Arian Visigoth converts to Islam, as opposed to dying out due to contraceptive use.

The Copts on the other hand are thriving, representing a growing portion of the population of Egypt, as opposed to merely hanging on, and that includes the Coptic Catholics as well as the Coptic Orthodox, although the Coptic Orthodox Church is massive. I suspect the average Sunday attendance of Coptic Orthodox Christians is higher than the average Sunday attendance of all non-Orthodox Christians in Germany, Scandinavia and the Netherlands combined.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You don't seem very calm accusing me of hostility. You couldn't even get your syntax right. Face it, we had an opportunity when John Paul was pope, and the opportunity continued when Benedict was pope. It didn't go anywhere not for their lack of trying. It didn't go anywhere because the bulk of the Orthodox wanted it to go nowhere. So don't complain about pope Francis when the Orthodox could have had a bunch of cardinals in the election where instead the "Galen Mafia' prevailed. So instead we got the dictator pope. You could have prevented new cardinals like Tobin and Ferrel and Cupich and McElroy. You could have avoided a future Francis II as these particular cardinals vote their way. You could have had an Orthodox as head of the DDF instead of Tucho Fernandez. You guys played your cards and you perpetuated the schism. You collectively got what you wanted.You can thumb your noses at us, only hoping to pick up a few shell shocked Catholics now. We would have been stronger together. But you wanted apart. So you got apart. And you call us hostile. Not laughing.

I am quite calm. You just can't handle the truth. You started off saying the Orthodox were hostile then you wonder why we don't agree. LOL, you blame the Orthodox for your choice of pope!??!?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The "Church" isn't heading in the wrong direction. But the Captain is acting odd.

He is your captain, not ours...and he is sailing your ship in the wrong direction. Your ship has been sailing in the wrong direction ever since it left the other ships in 1054 AD to sail on its own.

 

[The Liturgist]

He is your captain, not ours...

I have seen an interesting argument from some traditional Catholics to the extent tnat a Pope loses legitimacy if they contradict the traditional Roman Catholic faith, and allowing the blessing of homosexual relations is clearly that. So we have to pray that traditional Catholics are able to successfully take action to remove him, which is unprecedented; in the early church, of the autocephalous bishops, no Roman (or, interestingly, as far as I can recall, Hagiopolitan or Cypriot) bishop was ever deposed, but Antiochene, Alexandrian and Constantinopolitan bishops were, and since Canons 6 and 7 of the Council of Nicaea, clearly indicate that the Bishops of Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem are equals of the bishop of Rome, it would be possible according to the canons of the ecumenical councils to depose a Roman bishop.

What would be really interesting would be if an Orthodox prelate could be persuaded to depose the Pope. It would obviously not be sufficient to force Pope Francis to resign, but it would embarrass him. Better yet would be to convene a synod to depose Pope Francis and invite Catholic bishops.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I have seen an interesting argument from some traditional Catholics to the extent tnat a Pope loses legitimacy if they contradict the traditional Roman Catholic faith, and allowing the blessing of homosexual relations is clearly that. So we have to pray that traditional Catholics are able to successfully take action to remove him, which is unprecedented; in the early church, of the autocephalous bishops, no Roman (or, interestingly, as far as I can recall, Hagiopolitan or Cypriot) bishop was ever deposed, but Antiochene, Alexandrian and Constantinopolitan bishops were, and since Canons 6 and 7 of the Council of Nicaea, clearly indicate that the Bishops of Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem are equals of the bishop of Rome, it would be possible according to the canons of the ecumenical councils to depose a Roman bishop.

What would be really interesting would be if an Orthodox prelate could be persuaded to depose the Pope. It would obviously not be sufficient to force Pope Francis to resign, but it would embarrass him. Better yet would be to convene a synod to depose Pope Francis and invite Catholic bishops.

Interesting take, however I do not think it is our responsibility to clean their house since we are not even in communion with the RCC, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

 

[The Liturgist]

Interesting take, however I do not think it is our responsibility to clean their house since we are not even in communion with the RCC, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

I think we have a responsibility to help our traditional Roman Catholic brethren especially when doing so could facilitate the restoration of communion.

Consider that the main reason we are not in communion with Rome is because a Papal legate excommunicated the Patriarch of Constantinople in 1054 in an act that we believe was both by itself a clear violation of the Apostolic Canons and the Canons of the Ecumenical Councils, and the motivation for which was our refusal to accept a Papal ecclesiological doctrine that itself contradicted those same canons as well as the clearly expressed doctrine of prior Roman prelates such as Pope St. Gregory I the Great, St. Celestine, St. Sixtus, St. Clement of Rome and St. Peter the Holy Apostle, also the first Patriarch of Antioch, all of whom are exceedingly important to the Orthodox. Additionally in recent years the Roman church and various Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Churches have repeatedly invited us along with our Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian brethren to re-enter full communion (in the case of the Melkites, no strings were even attached to that invitation made to the Antiochian Orthodox; likewise the Assyrians declined an invitation made by the Chaldean Catholics because of the assumption this would result in a loss of autocephalous status as opposed to an actual explicit declaration.

So it seems to me that the three Eastern Apostolic communities (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian) have both the right to intervene in Roman Catholic affairs where these pose a threat to the prospect of ecumenical reconciliation and also the maintenance of church tradition and the preservation of our doctrine (because Rome and the mainline Protestants capitulating on homosexuality makes it harder for us to avoid being persecuted by increasingly left-wing governments, as there are many who feel churches should be forced to perform homosexual marriages, and forbidden to excommunicate homosexuals), and also we have a responsibility to assist our Roman Catholic brethren on the basis of the Golden Rule.

If the situation were reversed, and the Orthodox Church had been taken over by heretical bishops who sought to ignore Holy Tradition as defined by the Sacred Scriptures on homosexuality, I would want the Roman church to do everything it could to help restore doctrinal orthodoxy in our church.

I would lastly argue we have a more compelling case for being able to intervene in Roman Catholic affairs than we would have in the case of most Protestant churches, since they mostly excommunicated Rome (rather than vice versa) after Rome excommunicated us (rather than vice versa).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

If the situation were reversed, and the Orthodox Church had been taken over by heretical bishops who sought to ignore Holy Tradition as defined by the Sacred Scriptures on homosexuality, I would want the Roman church to do everything it could to help restore doctrinal orthodoxy in our church.

Well the pope himself is the problem. Does the RCC not have a way to depose a heretical pope? If it were reversed, we would not need Rome to fix things, we would do it ourselves. That is one main difference in our respective Churches. Also, the RCC in many ways has not had doctrinal Orthodoxy for a very long time now. As you well know, in respect to restoring communion, there are MANY things the RCC must do first.

 

[concretecamper]

He is your captain, not ours

If you want to deny the Captain of His Ship, the Church, that is your choice. There was only One Ark and likewise One Church. One would not jump off the Ark because Noah sinned.