Three apostolic sees

[prodromos]

Theology - evidently to everyone other than Roman Catholics it the Study of the nature of God.

Not according to the Orthodox Church. Theology is true knowledge of God, and only comes through deep, personal communion with God. The Orthodox Church has only recognised 3 people in the history of the Church as theologians.

 

[dzheremi]

Actually the RCC does have synods, but what they lack is a continual Holy Synod that has authority over the Pope, like the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, of which the Coptic Orthodox Pope of Alexandria (and his Greek Orthodox counterpart, for that matter) is merely the President. Primus inter pares, rather than an infallible primus sine paribus with universal jurisdiction.

Yes. That's why I clarified what I meant in my subsequent reply, as I realized by our friend's reply that it was not clear which meaning of "synod" I had intended. I of course meant the Holy Synod, which the RCC does not have an equivalent of.

Indeed the recent unpleasant experience the Coptic Orthodox Church had with the Extra Diocesan Areas which were directly under the Pope, but which were too vast and too dispersed for him to manage, and the attempt by some evangelical groups to take these over, by promoting books like The Purpose Driven Life and the use of praise and worship music, in places like Washington, DC, and Muqattam, near Cairo, and the dramatic improvement brought about by converting these into regular dioceses with strong bishops, demonstrates the problems with universal jurisdiction.

Ain't that the truth. I haven't even been around for all that long, and yet I heard many, many times before HH's actions in reining in the problem spots in DC and Canada (and the assignment of HG Bishop Abanoub to oversee Moqattam) the call from diocesan bishops, parish priests, and deacons that we need to get some of these "general bishops" attached to dioceses ASAP! Thanks be to God, that seems to be what is happening, though of course we must stay vigilant against the forces that seek to corrupt the faith from within. (Insert that one video of HH Pope Shenouda III talking about the danger of "Protestants in black turbans" here.)

This is one of several reasons I was happy in 2018 to see auxiliary bishops elevated to work alongside HG Bishop Youssef (as he still was then, since he wouldn't be elevated to Metropolitan status until 2022), HG Bishop Basil and HG Bishop Gregory. This showed me that a good lesson was being learned through the painful experience of turmoil in DC and Canada -- namely, that it is not appropriate that one man (no matter who he is) be put in charge of such a vast territory that maintaining effective oversight of it becomes unrealistic. I'm not even aware of anything analogous to the situations in DC and Canada occurring in the SUS Diocese (though to be fair, I was only ever in St. Bishoy's in Albuquerque, and St. Mark's in Scottsdale for the reception of baptism, so there is obviously a lot I could have missed), but of course the point is that with the increase in oversight, the chances of that sort of thing happening becomes more and more remote, so that hopefully we won't ever have it get to that point.

If it weren't for the fact that I know that the modern RCC's ecclesiology denies them this, I would venture to say that there's something that the believers within that institution could learn from examples like this, just as the very sad and disturbing problems that have occasionally befallen those of other communions can serve as a warning and a lesson to anyone from outside of them who wishes to look (whether that's with regard to the horrendous abuse scandals in the RCC, the problems with ethnophylitism that once plagued the EO in certain places, the tragedy of the conflict between the MOSC and the "Jacobites" in India, or anything else). Oh well, I guess.

It is possible, as a silver lining to the very problematic papacy of Pope Francis, that our Roman Catholic friends will now begin to understand the danger of granting too much power to one single bishop, given the numerous problems Pope Francis has caused traditional Catholics to experience

From your fingertips to God's ears, my friend.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Actually the RCC does have synods, but what they lack is a continual Holy Synod that has authority over the Pope, like the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, of which the Coptic Orthodox Pope of Alexandria (and his Greek Orthodox counterpart, for that matter) is merely the President. Primus inter pares, rather than an infallible primus sine paribus with universal jurisdiction.

The Catholic Church has the curia, it is advisory so it does not oversee the pope as much as it handles him.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Theology - evidently to everyone other than Roman Catholics it the Study of the nature of God

I have a book called Christian Theology by Protestant chap. All the systematic theology books in the local religious bookstore (run by the Free Reformed Church) are Calvinist works. So, I reckon a lot of Protestants use "theology" as I have. <grin>

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Unfortunately many of the issues remain.

I think they remain mainly because some people want them to remain.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It can be difficult, to know how to react or reach out - the reaction ratings are not perfect by any stretch. May I ask what part you disagree with? My assumption would be that one can change people's minds in online discussion. My experience is that it is very, very rare to do so. The only people that tend to change their minds in such discussions are usually the ones that initiate the conversation as they were already questioning whatever the subject is, not the ones coming out to defend a different point of view, as most threads are here.

I know that you do I used to as well, but I have come to a different conclusion.

You got a prayer this time, if written it would say (and it does say) May the Lord bless and keep you. May he shine his face upon you and give you rest. And may all your endeavours be blessed by Jesus. Amen.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Catholic Church has the curia, it is advisory so it does not oversee the pope as much as it handles him.

Unfortunately the Curia has failed to protect the Traditional Latin Mass communities or to prevent Pope Francis from reverting the most important decisions of his illustrious predecessor. It is my hope that Pope Benedict XVI, memory eternal, will swiftly be recognized a saint.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Unfortunately the Curia has failed to protect the Traditional Latin Mass communities or to prevent Pope Francis from reverting the most important decisions of his illustrious predecessor. It is my hope that Pope Benedict XVI, memory eternal, will swiftly be recognized a saint.

I kind of liked Benedict XVI, and Francis is interesting for the general public I think of him as okay, he is quite elderly now.

 

[The Liturgist]

I kind of liked Benedict XVI, and Francis is interesting for the general public I think of him as okay, he is quite elderly now.

I am as of now strongly opposed to Pope Francis, to the fullest possible degree, given his capitulation to homosexuality in Fiducia Supplicans. No matter how some try to spin it, permitting even the non-liturgical blessing of homosexual couples is absolutely unacceptable.

Indeed, Fiducia Supplicans is worse than everything else Pope Francis has done up until this point, which includes, but its not limited to, mistreatment of traditional religious orders with an attachment to the traditional Latin mass, which included a visitation with the Franciscans of the Immaculate shortly after becoming Pope that prevented family members of that order from visiting their relatives who were nuns or friars for nearly a year, the extremely problematic Amoris Laetitia, the gross embarassment of the Amazonian Synod, the unwarranted suppression of diocesan Traditional Latin Masses, the mistreamtent of Gerhard Cardinal Muller and Raymond Cardinal Burke, and replacing the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith with the new “Dicastery for the Doctrine of Faith”, and also excessive capitulation to the contumacy of the German bishops.

But all of that is surpassed in terms of its fundamental wrongness and incompatibility with traditional Roman Catholicism by Fiducia Supplicans, which is infinitely worse than Traditiones Custodes, as bad as that was. Prior to Pope Francis doing that, I still had some respect for him as he appeared to at least be standing up for traditional marriage against the pressures being exerted by the German bishops and the “Synodal Way” but this is no longer the case. By the way, were you aware of Fiducia Supplicans? I am guessing you were not, as I only found out about it today. At any rate, his actions have already prompted calls for reforming the Papacy to check the power of future Popes so that there will not be a repeat of what has happened with Pope Francis. Rorate Caeli, which is a Traditional Catholic blog I much admire, is covering this initiative here:

"Pope Francis' greatest contribution: having made it clear that there is an urgent need to reform the papacy"

It has just been announced that the Italian news source "Il Sismographo" has decided to shut down. Its editor, Luis Badilla, was a great sou...

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com

Now, to be clear, I absolutely love the Roman Catholic Church, and I regard as close friends several Catholic membeers of this forum, including but not limited to @Michie @chevyontheriver @concretecamper and @Valletta . I greatly admire a large number of Roman Catholic bishops, such as Athanasius Scneider, Archbishop Cordileone of San Francisco, Raymond Cardinal Burke, Gerhard Cardinal Muller, Cardinal Sarah (I cannot recall his first name, embarassingly), and clergy, such as Fr. Zuhlsdorf, Fr. Hunwicke, and many others, and I credit the Roman Catholic Church as having made massive and indispensable contributions to the lifting of the iron curtain in Eastern Europe, especially in Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary, which in turn contributed to the end of the Cold War, and also I think the Roman Catholic Church, in following the course set by Pope St. John Paul II, who absolutely is a saint worthy of veneration, made an enormous contribution to the pro-life cause, and deserves at least half of the credit for organizing the repeal of Roe v. Wade. My specific problems are with Pope Francis and the liberal bishops and Vatican administrators who he is in an alliance with.

 

[The Liturgist]

From your fingertips to God's ears, my friend.

Thank you, that is very kind of you to say!

Let us pray for the success of this initiative: "Pope Francis' greatest contribution: having made it clear that there is an urgent need to reform the papacy"

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I am as of now strongly opposed to Pope Francis, to the fullest possible degree, given his capitulation to homosexuality in Fiducia Supplicans. No matter how some try to spin it, permitting even the non-liturgical blessing of homosexual couples is absolutely unacceptable.

I do not share that sentiment.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I have a book called Christian Theology by Protestant chap. All the systematic theology books in the local religious bookstore (run by the Free Reformed Church) are Calvinist works. So, I reckon a lot of Protestants use "theology" as I have. <grin>

(Grin). Who is “Protestant Chap”?

What does “all the theology books” in a local Free Reformed Church bookstore have to do with my post?

Scratches head….

 

[Always in His Presence]

I am as of now strongly opposed to Pope Francis, to the fullest possible degree, given his capitulation to homosexuality in Fiducia Supplicans. No matter how some try to spin it, permitting even the non-liturgical blessing of homosexual couples is absolutely unacceptable.

Stands and applauded.

For the leader of a religious organization to support what is abhorrent to God is a precarious place to be in for their adherents.

 

[The Liturgist]

I do not share that sentiment.

Every traditional Catholic friend of mine, such as Dr. Peter Kwaniewski , Fr. Zuhlsdorf, Dr. Gregory diPippo, and many others, do share the sentiment that blessing homosexual couples is incompatible with the Roman Catholic faith, and I believe my Roman Catholic friends on CF.com including @concretecamper @chevyontheriver @Valletta @Michie and several other members are likely opposed to it as well (I have not spoken to all of them, so I don’t want to put words in their mouth).

As bad as “Amoris Laetitia” and the Amazonian synod were, and as mean-spirited and counter-productive as Traditiones Custodes was, “Fiducia Supplicans” represents the first time Pope Francis has allowed something entirely unacceptable. What is ironic is that the Church of England recently made almost exactly the same concession to homosexuality by permitting the blessing of homosexual relationships.

I expect this will result in a suspension of all ecumenical dialogue between the Eastern churches and Rome, and I would not be surprised if some of the Sui Juris Eastern Catholic churches break communion over this, for example, the Hungarian, Melkite and Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches and the Coptic Catholic Church and the Syriac Catholic Church.

This will also likely have a devastating impact on the Anglican Ordinariates since many Anglo Catholics joined the Ordinariates in reaction to the capitulation of various Anglican churches on this issue. Now, there are some Anglicans who genuinely desired union with Rome and will likely remain no matter what, but it is quite possible this act will encourage others to join the Continuing Anglican churches or the Western Rite Orthodox.

Another tragic aspect of this scenario is the impact it will have on ecumenical relations with the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East, the Polish National Catholic Church and other traditional denominations.

 

[The Liturgist]

Stands and applauded.

For the leader of a religious organization to support what is abhorrent to God is a precarious place to be in for their adherents.

Fortunately the majority of Roman Catholics I know are very upset by this and a large number of bishops, including nearly all of the African bishops, and also all of the Ukrainian bishops, have acted to prohibit homosexual blessings in their diocese.

Additionally, some conservative bishops Pope Francis is attempting to depose such as Bishop Strickland are being encouraged by Dr. Peter Kwasniewsky and others to ignore such depositions. And this is a viable course of action given that the majority of real estate assets of the Roman Catholic Church belong to the dioceses, and thanks to the brave Anglican bishop of Fort Worth who successfully took his diocese out of the Episcopal Church USA, and won in the Supreme Court against a massive legal campaign to dislodge them (the Episcopal Church has wasted more than $50 million in legal costs suing dioceses that want to leave, and as a result is, if I recall, trying to sell their headquarters on Second Ave. in Manhattan). Consequently, it would likely be illegal for the Roman Catholic Church in the US to dislodge a bishop who was determined to remain.

This is a bit of a double edged sword, however, since it will also make removing the unacceptably liberal bishops if and when a conservative Pope is elected. The best approach there would probably be to offer liberal bishops who are obstacles to reform promotions to senior positions in the Vatican, and then fire them en masse.

My hope at present is that one of the senior prelates from the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is elected Pope at the next conclave, which I think is possible given the political situation, and such a Pope would be very traditional and would be in a position to reverse the errors of Pope Francis, and would also be able to effectively repair ecumenical relations with the Orthodox churches and other traditional denominations which are outraged by Fiducia Supplicans.

The majority of Catholics will not stand for this, and I expect even now that many of the best canon lawyers in the Roman church are working on figuring out how to respond to this, and we need to pray that they are successful.

 

[The Liturgist]

I have a book called Christian Theology by Protestant chap. All the systematic theology books in the local religious bookstore (run by the Free Reformed Church) are Calvinist works. So, I reckon a lot of Protestants use "theology" as I have. <grin>

That is hardly surprising considering that two of the three most well known works of systematic theology, Calvin’s Institutes and the ponderous Church Dogmatics of Karl Barth were written by Reformed theologians, and obviously one is more likely to find books relating to them in a Calvinist bookstore than works relating to the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas.

Now of these three works, I find all three interesting; I personally prefer the Summa, but as far as that goes I prefer dogmatic theology to systematic theology. The Fount of Knowledge of St. John Damascene (who Roman Catholics regard as the last pre-Scholastic Patristic theologian) and other related works, including more recent works such as The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, Mere Christianity by CS Lewis, Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, as well as topic-specific works such as the superb writings of Pope Benedict XVI, memory eternal, as well as Patristic works such as On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius and Mystical Theology by St. Dionysius, strike me as being more compact and more enjoyable.

I am not convinced that systematic theology is that important a field of endeavor, or even possible while maintaining complete consistency with the writings of the Early Church Fathers, since it was never really attempted in the Orthodox Church nor, to my knowledge, have any Lutherans or Anglicans attempted it, despite the prodigious intellectual abilities we see in those works.

That said, the Summa Theologica is an impressive accomplishment, which, while not entirely in alignment with the Patristic corpus due to the somewhat different approach of the Schoolmen, for example, their embrace of the satisfaction soteriology developed by Anselm of Canterbury, and their preferential use of Aristotle instead of Plato (Plato and to a lesser extent Aristotle were used, with caution, by some of the Early Church Fathers, and I have heard, but am not clever enough to be able to verify, that Aristotle was also used by St. Gregory Palamas, but he was certainly was not enthusiastically embraced by any of the early church Fathers to the extent that Aquinas embraced him; Aquinas referred to him as “the Philosopher” and to Averroes as “The Commentator”, and Averroes was very recent relative to the Summa Theologica.

Ironically all of this was made possible by Assyrian and Syriac Orthodox monks, such as those at St. Matthew’s Monastery in the hills above Mosul (which miraculously survives to the present, having been undamaged during the dreadful ISIS occupation of Mosul) and the Syrian Monastery in Egypt, who translated the works of Aristotle into Arabic from surviving Greek and Syriac manuscripts (which had been lost in the West) from which they were then acquired by Westerners and translated into Latin .

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

...

The earliest mention of the papacy is attributed to Pope Clement I, who is identified with Clement of Philippians 4:3. His letter to the Corinthians is the "first known example of the exercise and acceptance" of the ecclesiastical authority of the papacy. Another early mention of the papacy is in Matthew 16:19, where Jesus says to Peter, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven". In 756 AD, Pepin the Short, King of the Franks, invaded Italy, freeing Rome from the Lombards and giving large regions of Italy to the Pope, which gave the papacy a power it had not yet had.

...

 

[The Liturgist]

...

The earliest mention of the papacy is attributed to Pope Clement I, who is identified with Clement of Philippians 4:3. His letter to the Corinthians is the "first known example of the exercise and acceptance" of the ecclesiastical authority of the papacy. Another early mention of the papacy is in Matthew 16:19, where Jesus says to Peter, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven". In 756 AD, Pepin the Short, King of the Franks, invaded Italy, freeing Rome from the Lombards and giving large regions of Italy to the Pope, which gave the papacy a power it had not yet had.

...

Forgive me, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything we were discussing.

 

[concretecamper]

As bad as “Amoris Laetitia” and the Amazonian synod were, and as mean-spirited and counter-productive as Traditiones Custodes was, “Fiducia Supplicans” represents the first time Pope Francis has allowed something entirely unacceptable. What is ironic is that the Church of England recently made almost exactly the same concession to homosexuality by permitting the blessing of homosexual relationships

Luckily, Fiducia Supplicans is a pastoral letter not binding on individual Dioceses. It sure represents views of the liberal camp of The Church, but carry no teeth. Many Dioceses are already rejecting it. Unfortunately, many souls may be lost due to this ridiculous document.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Every traditional Catholic friend of mine, such as Dr. Peter Kwaniewski , Fr. Zuhlsdorf, Dr. Gregory diPippo, and many others, do share the sentiment that blessing homosexual couples is incompatible with the Roman Catholic faith, and I believe my Roman Catholic friends on CF.com including @concretecamper @chevyontheriver @Valletta @Michie and several other members are likely opposed to it as well (I have not spoken to all of them, so I don’t want to put words in their mouth).

I think we could put a bunch of cardinals and bishops on that list. Cardinal Muller is one for sure. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but the list will grow. I expect cardinal Muller will lose his Rome apartment subsidized by the Vatican soon enough. And any other cardinal that doesn't say 'yes sir' fast enough.

As bad as “Amoris Laetitia” and the Amazonian synod were, and as mean-spirited and counter-productive as Traditiones Custodes was, “Fiducia Supplicans” represents the first time Pope Francis has allowed something entirely unacceptable. What is ironic is that the Church of England recently made almost exactly the same concession to homosexuality by permitting the blessing of homosexual relationships.

Birds of a feather. But we could see this coming with the longstanding refusal to answer the dubia following Amoris Latitia. Then with the inadequate answers to fresh dubia on the subject the writing was on the wall. This confused and inconsistent document is the logical metastatic outgrowth of Amoris Latatia.

I expect this will result in a suspension of all ecumenical dialogue between the Eastern churches and Rome, and I would not be surprised if some of the Sui Juris Eastern Catholic churches break communion over this, for example, the Hungarian, Melkite and Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches and the Coptic Catholic Church and the Syriac Catholic Church.

I understand a Russian heirarch reacted with shock. And the UGCC has said it will NOT be implemented in the Ukraine

This will also likely have a devastating impact on the Anglican Ordinariates since many Anglo Catholics joined the Ordinariates in reaction to the capitulation of various Anglican churches on this issue. Now, there are some Anglicans who genuinely desired union with Rome and will likely remain no matter what, but it is quite possible this act will encourage others to join the Continuing Anglican churches or the Western Rite Orthodox.

I could see that. But I don't think pope Francis has a lot of love for the Ordinariates, so it might be considered a bonus to drive them out. I hope I'm wrong there.

I think it will have a devastation effect on ordinary Catholics when it finally sinks in that this really is an 'innovation' and not the 'no change at all' that so many Catholic talking heads committed to the hermeneutic of continuity are trying to make it out to be. This IS a discontinuity. Maybe not an infallibility failure just yet, but I'm not even sure I could explain how it isn't an infallibility failure.

Another tragic aspect of this scenario is the impact it will have on ecumenical relations with the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East, the Polish National Catholic Church and other traditional denominations.

This is an ecumenical setback for all but the Anglicans and like minded groups. We can now be Anglican/Episcopalian without reservation. Ugh. This will have to be undone. Undone fairly quickly. The pope was supposed to protect this from happening.