Thoughts...

[clareos86]

Why hello!


First of all I'd like to say that in no way am I gay-bashing or anything here!

OK, I have been thinking a lot recently about the way I talk to my homosexual friends about the Gospel.


I have several friends who are homosexual/bi-sexual. In my opinion, the greatest, and most important message of the Bible is that God loves you, no matter what. Jesus died on a cross to cleanse us of our sins - including the sin of homosexual acts. (note: please don't debate here if gay sex is a sin or not.)


Yeah.. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, I'd just like some opinions, particularly from gay Christians.


To gay Christians:


Going on the statement that sex outside of marriage is wrong (1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.) If you are a Christian, how can you continue to engage in homosexual activity and not say that it is wrong? The same would apply to a murderer.. the Bible states that murder is wrong. A man believes in God, claims to be a Christian and then murders someone. He refuses to repent of his sin, saying that God still loves him. In fact, he enjoyed it so much that he kills someone else. Doesn't matter. God still loves him.


Sorry, that was a rather harsh example.. it's like.. I know that I, Clare, sin. I fight with my brothers all the time. The Bible says that I should honour my father. I fight with my dad, I dis-honour him. God still loves me, but He tells me that what I have done is wrong and calls me to repent of my sin. In the same way, the Bible says that homosexual acts are wrong. God still loves you if you engage in them, but He calls you to repent.


How can you justify continually, willingly, flippantly sinning when it is clearly stated in the Bible that it is wrong?


I hope I don't sound too condemning - I don't mean that at all, this is a bit of a steam of conciousness! It's just that I want to be able to bring the light of God to my non-Christian friends. Some of them are gay, and I know how homosexuality is such a topical issue with Christianity. I don't want to say to them 'What you are doing is wrong. It is a sin and if you don't stop you'll go to hell.' I don't say that to other non-Christians about their sins so why should I do it about homosexuality?!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA I feel like I'm making no sense so I'm just going to post this now! Any thoughts?


Clare


Edit: Lol, I've just seen a topic saying that they are sick of discussing homosexuality...sorry!!!

 

[AdonaiShalom]

Just one thing - there is more to being gay than having sex. The bible writers sometimes make out as though that is all there is to it but we know now that it is a whole way of being and thinking and relating - just like being heterosexual.

 

[clareos86]

Just one thing - there is more to being gay than having sex. The bible writers sometimes make out as though that is all there is to it but we know now that it is a whole way of being and thinking and relating - just like being heterosexual.

Oh I know I know I know!! Sorry if I didn't specify, I thought I did! I'm talking about the act of homosexual act being wrong (coming from the school of thought that also teaches that heterosexual sex outside of marriage is wrong)

(I think) my main point is..

if you believe in God

if you believe that the Bible is God's word

if you want to follow God by acting according to His will as written in the Bible

How can you justify a homosexual relationship?

I hope I am making sense now... it's 6.35am here, I haven't been to bed yet!

 

[GAPCanadianChristian]

How can you justify continually, willingly, flippantly sinning when it is clearly stated in the Bible that it is wrong?

I am a gay Christian. What it comes down to is that not everyone interprets the Bible in the same way, and not everyone agrees with how every Bible is tranlated, so we get differences of opinions.

 

[clareos86]

I am a gay Christian. What it comes down to is that not everyone interprets the Bible in the same way, and not everyone agrees with how every Bible is tranlated, so we get differences of opinions.

Coolio, thanks for you info Could you please tell me your interpretation of verses such as:

Genesis19 (here's the link, it's too long to type: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen019.html)

Leviticus 18:22 "Do no lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

1 Corinthians6:9-10 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.


I am genuinely interested in hearing your interpretation

I definitly don't think that the act of homosexuality is an unforgiveable sin, not is it worse nor better than any other sin, but if the Bible says that gay sex is a sin, then I believe it is a sin. That doesn't make someone who does it any better nor worse than me.. we are all sinners and I believe that Jesus died for all of ours sins.

Thanks in advance!

Clare

 

[SH89]

Leviticus 18:22 "Do no lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Do you eat shellfish?

There ! I have said it before anybody else did-lol. Anyway, a note on these verses-the food laws in leviticus were temporary; however, God's standards and views on what is right and wrong still apply today(and forever).
In leviticus 18:22/ leviticus 20:13, God made his judgement of homosexuailty practice clear-God sees it as a sin. Some have argued that the food laws in leviticus are so bizarre to modern diets(and they are), that leviticus 18:22/leviticus 20:13 somehow don't apply anymore. However, questions arise such as the following: So God changed his view? God now calls something "right" that he once called "wrong"?

 

[clareos86]

Do you eat shellfish?

There ! I have said it before anybody else did-lol. Anyway, a note on these verses-the food laws in leviticus were temporary; however, God's standards and views on what is right and wrong still apply today(and forever).
In leviticus 18:22/ leviticus 20:13, God made his judgement of homosexuailty practice clear-God sees it as a sin. Some have argued that the food laws in leviticus are so bizarre to modern diets(and they are), that leviticus 18:22/leviticus 20:13 somehow don't apply anymore. However, questions arise such as the following: So God changed his view? God now calls something "right" that he once called "wrong"?

Lol, I don't actually, I don't like shellfish!!

Somehow I don't think that was your point though!!

Well, I am quite a new Christian and not as familiar with the Bible as I'd like to be!! I'm currently reading 15mins per day in the hope to be finished in a year. I hadn't got to Leviticus yet, the particular verses I posted were ones I'd heard mentioned before so I looked them up online. On your reply, I got out my Bible and had a glance at that area of Leviticus...

Lev19:19 "...Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material..."

Also all sorts of rules.. like a woman not entering a holy place until 33 days after she gives birth (Lev12)

OK... I take your point!

I'm sure though, if it wasn't 8.19am, if I had been to bed at all, and if I was awake enough to think about it and do sojme research on it, then I could find out why God says these things! However... I can't!! But, in my tired and weary state sigh: ) there does seem to be a difference in emphasis between

"Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed" - Lev19:19

and

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable...this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.... Everyone who does any of these detestable things - such persons must be cut off from their people" (Lev18:22-29)

Thoughts?

 

[Clarphimous]

Parts of the Bible do state that homosexuality is icky and immoral. But not all Christians see the Bible as infallible. Those who do not usually just follow the teachings of Jesus and other parts that do not seem to contradict the principles he taught. In the case of homosexuality, it is understood that the Jews were a sort of counter-culture to the pagans of the day. Since the pagans often practiced homosexual sexual rites, the Jews associated homosexuality with sin.

I personally do not see the moral problem with homosexuality. It may seem strange to those not accustomed to it, but that does not mean it is evil.

 

[clareos86]

Welcome to CF Clarphimous! I have to go get ready for Church now, it's almost 9am here, I've been up all night! I'll come back later and discuss more

 

[Clarphimous]

Thanks for the welcome. It's going on 3:00am where I live. I should probably be asleep... I'm going to be going to church today, too.

 

[Helo]

Coolio, thanks for you info Could you please tell me your interpretation of verses such as:

Genesis19 (here's the link, it's too long to type: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen019.html)

Leviticus 18:22 "Do no lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

1 Corinthians6:9-10 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.


I am genuinely interested in hearing your interpretation

I definitly don't think that the act of homosexuality is an unforgiveable sin, not is it worse nor better than any other sin, but if the Bible says that gay sex is a sin, then I believe it is a sin. That doesn't make someone who does it any better nor worse than me.. we are all sinners and I believe that Jesus died for all of ours sins.

Thanks in advance!

Clare

First off, Leviticus is the OLD testament, Christians are not required to follow it.

The Corinthians verse speaks nothing about homosexuality so is irrelevant. Sodomite refers to people from the city of Sodom, not gays.

The Genesis verse is....sketchy to say the least, theres no real concrete condemnation of homosexuality in it

As someone else pointed out earlier, there is much more to being gay than sex. A man can love annother man just as passionately as you can love a man, a woman can love annother woman as passionately as you could love a man.

Homosexual love is not condemned in the bible, only gay male sex is

 

[clareos86]

First off, Leviticus is the OLD testament, Christians are not required to follow it.

The Corinthians verse speaks nothing about homosexuality so is irrelevant. Sodomite refers to people from the city of Sodom, not gays.

The Genesis verse is....sketchy to say the least, theres no real concrete condemnation of homosexuality in it

As someone else pointed out earlier, there is much more to being gay than sex. A man can love annother man just as passionately as you can love a man, a woman can love annother woman as passionately as you could love a man.

Homosexual love is not condemned in the bible, only gay male sex is

I didn't know that Christians weren't supposed to follow the OT.. sorry for my ignorance.. I'm still very new to this malarky! Could you explain to me how Christians are not supposed to follow the OT, as I thought it was God's word and direction to His people.

I was under the impression that the word 'sodomy' encompassed homosexual sex.

I'm sure that the love between a gay couple is just as pasionate as the love between a straight couple.. that is not my point. I never said that homosexual love was condemned in the Bible. I would like to hear how a gay Christian continues to sin and not repent.

Thanks for your thoughts

 

[loriersea]

Not all Christian believe that biblical inspiration means that every single word in the Bible comes straight from God. Many Christians believe that the biblical writers, while inspired, were human, and so their very human prejudices and biases so up in the text. One place that occurs is around homosexuality.

This is really a question of hermeneutics and of theology, rather than of morality. You believe that gay Christians should change their behavior not because it's what the Bible says, but because you interpret the biblical text in a particular way.

I believe that the Bible is inspired in that God can speak to us through it. As we read the faith history of our tradition, God uses the experiences we are reading about to speak to us here, now. But, that doesn't mean that every word of the Bible is God's word to us. God can use the words to speak to us, but the words themselves aren't his. In that view, we can understand that, when the biblical authors condemn homosexuality, or when they require that women remain silent and veiled, that they are writing from their cultural perspectives, NOT from an inerrant understanding of God.

Now, you are obviously free to disagree with that. But it is important to understand that there are many, many different ways of viewing the Bible, and the kind of literal-inerrant reading you are proposing is not the only one, or even the prevalent one, especially outside of conservative Christian circles.

 

[clareos86]

Not all Christian believe that biblical inspiration means that every single word in the Bible comes straight from God. Many Christians believe that the biblical writers, while inspired, were human, and so their very human prejudices and biases so up in the text. One place that occurs is around homosexuality.

This is really a question of hermeneutics and of theology, rather than of morality. You believe that gay Christians should change their behavior not because it's what the Bible says, but because you interpret the biblical text in a particular way.

I believe that the Bible is inspired in that God can speak to us through it. As we read the faith history of our tradition, God uses the experiences we are reading about to speak to us here, now. But, that doesn't mean that every word of the Bible is God's word to us. God can use the words to speak to us, but the words themselves aren't his. In that view, we can understand that, when the biblical authors condemn homosexuality, or when they require that women remain silent and veiled, that they are writing from their cultural perspectives, NOT from an inerrant understanding of God.

Now, you are obviously free to disagree with that. But it is important to understand that there are many, many different ways of viewing the Bible, and the kind of literal-inerrant reading you are proposing is not the only one, or even the prevalent one, especially outside of conservative Christian circles.

Quite the reverse, I completely agree with you. I am not one to take every verse completely literally! The reason I am proposing this view is becuase I really want to understand the viewpoint of homosexual Christians. I've always been interested in ethics and morality, even before I was a Christian.

Thanks for your thought

 

[Helo]

I didn't know that Christians weren't supposed to follow the OT.. sorry for my ignorance.. I'm still very new to this malarky! Could you explain to me how Christians are not supposed to follow the OT, as I thought it was God's word and direction to His people.

The Old Testament is the Jewish bible, it applies to Jews. The New Testament is the Christian bible, it applies to Christians. Besides, if you follow Leviticus, you need to do ALL the things that Leviticus says you should do and as someone pointed out earlier, it asks for some pretty outlandish things

I was under the impression that the word 'sodomy' encompassed homosexual sex.

Not always. Sodomy is anal sex. There are homosexuals out there who are women. And a FAR greater number of heterosexuals practice sodomy than homosexuals.

I'm sure that the love between a gay couple is just as pasionate as the love between a straight couple.. that is not my point. I never said that homosexual love was condemned in the Bible. I would like to hear how a gay Christian continues to sin and not repent.

Because they do not see it as a sin and the claims that it is a sin arent supported by the bible in any really meaningful way

 

[SimplyMe]

Coolio, thanks for you info Could you please tell me your interpretation of verses such as:

Genesis19 (here's the link, it's too long to type: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen019.html)

Leviticus 18:22 "Do no lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

1 Corinthians6:9-10 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.


I am genuinely interested in hearing your interpretation

I definitly don't think that the act of homosexuality is an unforgiveable sin, not is it worse nor better than any other sin, but if the Bible says that gay sex is a sin, then I believe it is a sin. That doesn't make someone who does it any better nor worse than me.. we are all sinners and I believe that Jesus died for all of ours sins.

Thanks in advance!

Clare

While not a gay Christian, but as someone that here would likely be painted as a "liberal Christian", there is a Religious Tolerance website that explains the Bible verses and why some Biblical scholars believe they aren't aimed at homosexuals.

 

[Jacob4Jesus]

If you want to read about it from the perspective of homosexual Christians, I would recommend reading this site:

http://www.truthsetsfree.net/

 

[clareos86]

Thanks Jacob4Jesus and SimplyMe for those websites, I'll have a read when I've got some time!!

Thanks everyone for the positive responses, I really am just trying to learn more and hear the opinion of others!

 

[Athene]

What makes homosexuality the one sin that stops someone from being a christian? I've been a christian for around 13 years now and during that time I have met christians who lied, were extrememly judgemental, lots of overweight christians, christians who were living with a partner (I was one of them) and countless other things yet nobody ever pointed the finger at me or anyone else and said 'you are living with sin, you are commiting sin wilfully, daily without repentance, you are not a christian'. Now why is that, why is it more acceptable to live with someone without being married to them then it is to be a homosexual? Both are sin (according to the bible) but one stops you from being a christian, the other doesn't (according to man, not God).

Don't make the mistake of distinguisihing between sins, and don't be pointing out the splinter in other peoples eyes, when you've got a big plank of wood in your own.

 

[clareos86]

Athene, did you actually read any of my posts? I have said the whole way through this thread that I do not want to condemn anyone. I am a sinner just the same, as I believe all sins are equal to God. We are all redeemed through the cross.