Thoughts on who will be the new pope.

[timothyu]

Well whoever it is there is a lot of political infighting first. Guess they don't cast lots and leave it up to God like in the Apostles days

 

[timothyu]

White smoke at 6:11 Rome time.

 

[Michie]

Super excited!!

 

[timothyu]

Already the press digs in. The Vatican is 3/4 of a billion in debt.. one third of that pensions. Guess Trump can buy that one too.

 

[Michie]

Pope Leo XIV. An American with dual citizenship.

 

[timothyu]

Triple now, considering he is head of his own country now.

Robert Francis Prevost was born in Chicago on 14 September 1955, the son of Louis Marius Prevost and Mildred Martínez.[4] His father, who was a United States Navy veteran of World War II and school administrator,[5] was of French and Italian descent, and his mother of Spanish descent.

 

[Bob Crowley]

That one came from left field. I thought Parolin might get the top job but I was wrong.

Obviously I'm not privy to the Conclave's deliberations, but Pope Leo XIV will have a few issues to face, not least being an egoistical US President on home soil. Plus China, left wing trendies, the fact the US is predominantly Protesant, Indian Hindu nationalism, the Moslem resurgence and so on.

Sooner him than me.

 

[Michie]

That one came from left field. I thought Parolin might get the top job but I was wrong.

Obviously I'm not privy to the Conclave's deliberations, but Pope Leo XIV will have a few issues to face, not least being an egoistical US President on home soil. Plus China, left wing trendies, the fact the US is predominantly Protesant, Indian Hindu nationalism, the Moslem resurgence and so on.

Sooner him than me.

I guessed Parolin earlier too.

 

[fhansen]

If politics has entered the supposed realm of the Kingdom then it no longer represents the will of God.

If God’s will gets done on this crazy planet, it necessarily gets done despite the inevitable human politics, rivalries, weaknesses, ignorance, limitations, sin, etc- that we were already seeing in the book of Acts.

 

[timothyu]

that we were already seeing in the book of Acts.

Continuation of the blind leading the blind principle and the branches grew. But that is kind the point of showing how even the chosen were fallible like the rest of us so that not even they should be blindly followed.

 

[The Liturgist]

Firstly, let me say I am praying for the new Pope out of solidarity with my dearly beloved Roman Catholic friends on this forum.

I am extremely hopeful that the new Pope Leo XIV, will, like his namesake Leo XIII, be remembered as a good leader. Leo XIII is of particular interest to those who love the traditional Latin mass such as myself, since he is responsible for the inclusion of the prayers said at the end of every Low Mass,c called the Leonine Prayers in his honor.

I hope his chosing the name of a Pope associated with the Latin Mass in this way will indicate he intends to push for unity, although his background is not extremely conservative (he is a friend of the liberal Cardinal Cupich of Chicago, who is unpopular with Catholics attached to the Traditional Latin Mass, however, it is also the case that Pope Leo XIV is from Chicago. I am pleased that he is an American; I was personally hoping the Major Archbishop of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (this is an unusual title; bishops of the same rank in other Eastern Catholic churches have the title “Patriarch”, and there are also multiple Latin Rite Patriarchs, for example, the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, might win on the basis of sympathy, as he is known for being extremely conservative; recently, another bishop of the UGCC recently became the leader of the entire Roman Catholic Church in Australia, and it is good to see Eastern Catholic bishops in positions of authority across the entire Roman Catholic Church, and it could help facilitate union with the Orthodox, depending on the bishop in question.

Indeed, the Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch proposed a merger with the Antiochian Orthodox Church, and the Chaldean Catholic Patriarch proposed a merger with the Assyrian Church of the East, but these did not go through because the former proposal had ambiguities that both other Catholics and the Orthodox had regarding the role of the Pope in such a combined church, and the latter did not address it, causing the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East to draft an eloquent reply to the extent that they could take no action which would deprive them of their ancient autocephaly (ecclesiastical independence), which dates back to at least the fifth century; the Church of the East was initially part of the Church of Antioch but eventually became the autocephalous church of the Persian Empire and other areas outside of the Eastern borders of the Roman Empire (likewise, the Armenian and Georgian churches were also initially a part of the Church of Antioch); this is reflected in the primates of all these churches being traditionally referred to as “Catholicos.”

However, since the Conclave elected Pope Leo XIV, and since early indications are that Pope Leo XIV is prepared to extend an olive branch to traditional Catholics while continuing the very solid relationship Pope Francis developed with the Orthodox, I will be praying for him.

 

[The Liturgist]

Who are the running contenders and will the church be returned to it's traditionally conservative approach or continue to go down the road of liberalism?

Fortunately both His Beatitude Pope Theodore II and His Holiness Pope Tawadros II, of the Greek and Coptic Orthodox Churches of Alexandria* are both traditional conservatives as are the other bishops of their Holy Synods with whom they share equal power and authority, being primus inter pares as the Roman pope historically was until the period immediately prior to the great schism of 1054.

* Both churches of Alexandria have close ecumencal relations with each other, so that Coptic Orthodox and Alexandrian Greek Orthodox Christians can intermarry and receive the sacrament in either church (at least in Egypt, but presumably elsewhere in Africa; the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria and All Africa being the only substantial Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction on that continent, which does not suffer the same problems of overlapping jurisdiction that exist on the other continents, which could easily have arisen; historically before the Islamic genocides of North African Christians, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco were part of the Western Church but with a liturgy different from that of Rome, of which we know very little, although we have been able to reconstruct its lectionary using the homilies of St. Augustine of Hippo and other bishops from North Africa. Libya was in the Byzantine sphere of influence but I can’t recall if it was part of the Church of Alexandria before the Great Schism or not.

Interestingly the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria was probably the last to commemorate the Pope of Rome in the Diptychs under Pope Mark III of Alexandria, who despite in 1190 having asked for an opinion from the Eastern Orthodox canonist Balsamon of Antioch**, and having received a negative answer, continued to provide the Eucharist to what the historical texts refer to as “Latin Christians”, which basically means Roman Catholics in an Eastern Orthodox context.

** I personally find some instructions of Balsalmon disagreeable, for his objection to the use of the ancient DIvine Liturgies of St. James and St. Mark, which were the historic liturgies of Jerusalem and Alexandria respectively, which doubtless contributed to the decline in the frequency of their use among the Eastern Orthodox, which is extremely unfortunate as these two liturgies are among the oldest in continual use, along with the ancient liturgy of Antioch on which the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is based, along with the related Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great, the Divine Liturgy of Addai and Mari used in the Church of the East and other East Syriac churches, and the Roman Canon, which is the ancient Eucharistic prayer of the traditional Latin mass and also is used in the Ambrosian Rite, and a Byzantine rite recension of it, the Divine Liturgy of St. Peter, is extant.

 

[The Liturgist]

I doubt it will be Peter, but that would freak some people out, indeed.

Indeed - no canonical Bishop of Rome has used the name Peter, although the name has been used by several primates of the other petrine sees, with several Popes of Alexandria such as the martyr St. Peter of Alexandria, whose successor was the confessor St. Alexander of Alexandria, who famously deposed Arius, and several Patriarchs of Antioch, notably the Syriac Orthodox St. Peter the Fuller, who wrote the Theopaschite verse for the Trisagion, which some Chalcedonians erroneously regard as heretical (the confusion is because the Trisagion is a Trinitarian hymn in the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, but is a Christological hymn in the Oriental Orthodox churches; in this respect the controversy is reminscent of that between the Russian Old Rite Orthodox and Old Believers and those who embraced the Nikonian Reforms, and the Eastern Orthodox bishops from the Ottoman Empire who objected to the Russian Old Rite version of the Sign of the Cross; in most Eastern Orthodox liturgies the finger placement is intended to symbolize the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but in the Russian Old Rite, the fingers are positioned differently to symbolize the deity and humanity of Christ our True God*). Likewise there have been several Popes of Alexandria named Mark, including one who predated the schism between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox**.

* This in turn is reminiscent of the cross of the Assyrian Church of the East which features a mixture of three points on some of the wings with two at the base, the three pointed wings symbolizing the three persons of the trinity, and the two points at the base symbolizing the humanity and divinity of Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. Perhaps because at one time the Church of the East was under Nestorian influence, the Byzantine bishops made a connection between it and the way that the Russians made the sign of the cross, or perhaps they were associating it with the Theopaschite Clause, or perhaps both. In any case, the incident underscores the danger of assuming a liturgical element refers to the Holy Trinity and not specifically to the person of the Only Begotten Son and Word of God in an ecumenical context.

** I am praying that the increasing irrelevance of the EO-OO schism hopefully presages a similar reconciliation between the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox, and I am praying that the election of Pope Leo XIV will be beneficial in this regard.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Fortunately both His Beatitude Pope Theodore II and His Holiness Pope Tawadros II, of the Greek and Coptic Orthodox Churches of Alexandria* are both traditional conservatives as are the other bishops of their Holy Synods with whom they share equal power and authority, being primus inter pares as the Roman pope historically was until the period immediately prior to the great schism of 1054.

* Both churches of Alexandria have close ecumencal relations with each other, so that Coptic Orthodox and Alexandrian Greek Orthodox Christians can intermarry and receive the sacrament in either church (at least in Egypt, but presumably elsewhere in Africa; the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria and All Africa being the only substantial Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction on that continent, which does not suffer the same problems of overlapping jurisdiction that exist on the other continents, which could easily have arisen; historically before the Islamic genocides of North African Christians, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco were part of the Western Church but with a liturgy different from that of Rome, of which we know very little, although we have been able to reconstruct its lectionary using the homilies of St. Augustine of Hippo and other bishops from North Africa. Libya was in the Byzantine sphere of influence but I can’t recall if it was part of the Church of Alexandria before the Great Schism or not.

Interestingly the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria was probably the last to commemorate the Pope of Rome in the Diptychs under Pope Mark III of Alexandria, who despite in 1190 having asked for an opinion from the Eastern Orthodox canonist Balsamon of Antioch**, and having received a negative answer, continued to provide the Eucharist to what the historical texts refer to as “Latin Christians”, which basically means Roman Catholics in an Eastern Orthodox context.

** I personally find some instructions of Balsalmon disagreeable, for his objection to the use of the ancient DIvine Liturgies of St. James and St. Mark, which were the historic liturgies of Jerusalem and Alexandria respectively, which doubtless contributed to the decline in the frequency of their use among the Eastern Orthodox, which is extremely unfortunate as these two liturgies are among the oldest in continual use, along with the ancient liturgy of Antioch on which the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is based, along with the related Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great, the Divine Liturgy of Addai and Mari used in the Church of the East and other East Syriac churches, and the Roman Canon, which is the ancient Eucharistic prayer of the traditional Latin mass and also is used in the Ambrosian Rite, and a Byzantine rite recension of it, the Divine Liturgy of St. Peter, is extant.

I am confused - what does any of that post have to do with the Pope of the Roman Catholic church being conservative or liberal?

 

[RileyG]

Indeed - no canonical Bishop of Rome has used the name Peter, although the name has been used by several primates of the other petrine sees, with several Popes of Alexandria such as the martyr St. Peter of Alexandria, whose successor was the confessor St. Alexander of Alexandria, who famously deposed Arius, and several Patriarchs of Antioch, notably the Syriac Orthodox St. Peter the Fuller, who wrote the Theopaschite verse for the Trisagion, which some Chalcedonians erroneously regard as heretical (the confusion is because the Trisagion is a Trinitarian hymn in the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, but is a Christological hymn in the Oriental Orthodox churches; in this respect the controversy is reminscent of that between the Russian Old Rite Orthodox and Old Believers and those who embraced the Nikonian Reforms, and the Eastern Orthodox bishops from the Ottoman Empire who objected to the Russian Old Rite version of the Sign of the Cross; in most Eastern Orthodox liturgies the finger placement is intended to symbolize the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but in the Russian Old Rite, the fingers are positioned differently to symbolize the deity and humanity of Christ our True God*). Likewise there have been several Popes of Alexandria named Mark, including one who predated the schism between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox**.

* This in turn is reminiscent of the cross of the Assyrian Church of the East which features a mixture of three points on some of the wings with two at the base, the three pointed wings symbolizing the three persons of the trinity, and the two points at the base symbolizing the humanity and divinity of Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. Perhaps because at one time the Church of the East was under Nestorian influence, the Byzantine bishops made a connection between it and the way that the Russians made the sign of the cross, or perhaps they were associating it with the Theopaschite Clause, or perhaps both. In any case, the incident underscores the danger of assuming a liturgical element refers to the Holy Trinity and not specifically to the person of the Only Begotten Son and Word of God in an ecumenical context.

** I am praying that the increasing irrelevance of the EO-OO schism hopefully presages a similar reconciliation between the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox, and I am praying that the election of Pope Leo XIV will be beneficial in this regard.

Ever heard of the Palamarian Catholic Church in Spain? It's very small, and it believes the Blessed Mother is also present in the Eucharist. They had a Pope Peter II.

 

[mourningdove~]

Some (including myself) believe the next pope will be Cardinal Peter Turkson based on the cardinal's involvement in the World Economic Forum (WEF) and a few other factors that are in his favor.

Cardinal Turkson has been actively involved in the World Economic Forum (WEF) meetings in Davos, representing the Vatican’s interests and perspectives on global economic issues. His participation has focused on promoting a vision of economic development that aligns with the principles of social justice and the common good.

Cardinal Peter Kodwo Appia Turkson

Speaking of the spiritual state of the Catholic Church in Africa, Turkson explained that “most of us came to the Church after the Second Vatican Council, so we do not look back at a well-established…

collegeofcardinalsreport.com

(So, I was wrong. That's what I get for listening to a 'Vatican insider'! )

 

[The Liturgist]

Ever heard of the Palamarian Catholic Church in Spain? It's very small, and it believes the Blessed Mother is also present in the Eucharist. They had a Pope Peter II.

Yes, they are a dangerous cult that obtained their wealth by preying on dissffdcted traditional Catholics in Ireland and elsewhere in the years before Pope St. John Paul II issued Ecclesia Dei and began to work to better accommodate those who prefer the Tridentine Mass. When the Palmarians began their activities in the 1970s , the traditional Latin mass was being canonically celebrated only under indults such as that granted to elderly priests and the “Agatha Christie indult” which provided for its continued celebration in the UK (which takes its name from the fact it was requested by Dame Agatha Christie).

Insofar as they rewrote the Bible, and leaked copies of their Bible are available online; the Palmarian Bible is kind of a strange paraphrase of the original, altered to underscore their doctrines) and since they engage in the heresy of the Collyridians, as described by the Catholic and Orthodox Saints John of Damascus and St. Epiphanios of Salamis, I don’t think they could be considered Nicene Christians or in compliance with the CF.com statement of faith, particularly since they, like the J/Ws who famously tampered with John 1:1, literally preach another Gospel.

However, in recent decades they, having secured lots of money, have become extremely insular, and are not actively proselytising at present as far as I am aware. Following exposes in the European media, for example, on Irish TV 20 years ago, I would assume they are wary of attracting attention to themselves. But perhaps they are active on YouTube and elsewhere and I simply am unaware of their current activities. Eventually, their aging membership will require them to engage in more recruitment.

In my opinion, the existence of this cult underscores the importance of the RCC continuing to provide the traditional Latin mass.

 

[The Liturgist]

I am confused - what does any of that post have to do with the Pope of the Roman Catholic church being conservative or liberal?

Even if the new Roman Pope should prove extremely liberal, the fast-growing Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox community, which outnumbers the RCC in much of Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East, can act as a counterweight.

Also, the Eastern Catholic churches, while only a small percentage of the total RCC population, are important parts of the population of Lebanon, and the Maronites will not likely remain in communion with the RCC in the unlikely event the new Pope capitulates to the German bishops on a church-wide level, since to do so would endanger them; even moreso, it would endanger the already persecuted Latin Rite Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Melkite Greek Catholics, Coptic Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Syro-Malbar Catholics and others in the Middle East, Africa, India and Asia who live in Muslim-majority countries, so such an act would likely be denounced by the sui juris Eastern Catholic churches and the Latin Rite Christians of those lands, who are also themselves socially conservative. Indeed I hope that Bishop Athanasius Schneider is elevated to the college of cardinals.

 

[The Liturgist]

I also pray that the new Pope will vouchsafe to ensure that in 2032 (approximately) Archbishop Cordileone of San Francisco, who has done so much good for that archdiocese in terms of his traditional morality, being one of the most conservative archbishops in North America, who should be a cardinal in my opinion (indeed he would have made a fine Pope), when he reaches the mandatory retirement age* is replaced by a like minded Archbishop.

This would definitely help with relations with the Orthodox in San Francisco - there remains in San Francisco a large Russian American community isolated in the neighborhood surrounding the Holy Virgin Cathedral, which is the largest Russian Orthodox cathedral in the Western Hemisphere (part of ROCOR, not the Moscow Patriarchate), and also the much smaller Holy Trinity Cathedral, which is part of the OCA and uses the English language exclusively, whereas HVC services are mostly in Church slavonic but with increasing amounts of English - I am listening to Vigils right now where much of the liturgy is being read in English. This community, located in the Richmond district (not to be confused with the City of Richmond across the bay) also home to many conservative Catholics and the parish of St. Mary Star of the Sea, and a small number of traditional Protestant churches (across the bay is St. Joseph of Armithea, the seminary and headquarters for the Continuing Anglican Province of Christ the King, which is quite large in the Western US) , are islands of holiness in San Francisco.

These churches stand in blessed contrast to some of the mainline churches in San Francisco, which include herchurch, formerly Ebenezer Lutheran Church, which is still part of the ELCA, but I can’t imagine why since it is not Lutheran nor Evangelical, but instead sells “Mother Goddess Rosaries” and has various goddess-worshipping rites such as a Croning Ceremony for women who have turned past the age of child-bearing, which is literally a Pagan rite. Then there is an Episcopal parish, ironically dedicated to St. Gregory of Nyssa, who is one of the Early Church Fathers who expressly and unambiguously forbade all forms of homosexual activity in his writings (they probably selected him as their “patron” based on the widely circulated falsehood that St. Gregory was a universalist), which incorporates into their worship elements from heretical cults like the Shakers, who did not believe in marriage or reproduction and grew their community by adopting children, and engaged in all-night dancing the belief that this would remove them of the reproductive urge - the last members of this cult died in the past decade if I recall), and also elements from heathen religions such as the Shinto religion of Japan. I have written about both of these churches in Denomination Specific Theology.

In contrast, the Roman Catholic Churches of San Francisco like St. Mary Star of the Sea are majestic spaces of orthodox worship, thanks to Archbishop Cordileone, and indeed I am making another pilgrimage to that city to visit the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Indeed, the fact that San Francisco attracts pilgrims suggests to me it has a future despite the very unpleasant secular conditions in much of the city, but that future is one that starts in the Richmond and not the Castro or Tenderloin districts (sadly even the Mission district has suffered, with many of the socially conservative Latinos leaving; the Latino population of the Mission district has declined from 60% in 2000 to less than 48% today).

* Unless this is removed, which would improve compatibility with the Orthodox Church, where one wlll find bishops and parish priests in their 90s such as Catholicos Ilia of Georgia, or even centenarians, such as Metropolitan Irineos Galanakis of Germany, memory eternal. I have heard of some traditional Catholics who support its retention for the time being because it will age out of the Conclave and positions of real diocesan authority bishops appointed by Pope Francis, but it seems to me a double-edged sword, since it will also age out the remaining appointments of Pope Benedict XVI, who could prove more conservative than those appointed by Pope Leo XIV.