Thoughts on unity

[crawfish]

This place is too quiet...I guess I'm going to have to stir up some more controversy.

What is everybody's thoughts on unity either within or without the Restoration movement churches? I know some hardline Church of Christ's will never profess unity with instrumental churches; however, there is a growing movement to reunite all three Restoration groups, and even to start sharing resources and working on projects with groups outside the movement.

My own feelings is that there is a primary theology which we cannot and should not budge on, but there are many secondary theologies which are a matter of personal faith, and thus, should be overlooked for the sake of unity. The Nicene Creed is an excellent guide; however, I'll sum up what I believe here:

1) Belief in the existence of God, his place as creator, and his sovereignty over all of creation.
2) Belief in the dual nature of Jesus as God and Man.
3) Belief in the Trinity of God.
4) Belief in the virgin birth, the ministry and miracles of Jesus, and his death and resurrection.
5) Belief in the bible, as it is today, as the word of God.

Those are just off the top of my mind. Feel free to add what you feel, and we'll discuss that, too.

I've long had problems with the exclusivity of the CofC. I think we tend to try and separate ourselves too much to try and remain "holy", and end up hurting our cause.

Case in point: in a town in Arkansas years ago, a tornado cut through some areas of town and left quite a few people homeless. Every church in town joined in and helped those affected EXCEPT the local CofC, who bowed out because of theological reasons. Although they aided their members who had been harmed, they ended up being viewed with distrust and distaste by the rest of the town; they eventually died out when most of the members died.

 

[SoulFly51]

What town in Arkansas was that?

I was almost hit by the tornadoes that went through Little Rock and killed a bunch of people. It missed my old house by a few hundred yards.

Anyway, I don't believe most of the leaders involved with the CoC will ever make unifying with other segments of the RM a very high priority. I think there are various reasons for this - the main one being it's simply not very important to them.

I personally believe all Christians are unified whether they know it or not. Those IN Christ are IN Christ together.

 

[crawfish]

What town in Arkansas was that?

I was almost hit by the tornadoes that went through Little Rock and killed a bunch of people. It missed my old house by a few hundred yards.

Anyway, I don't believe most of the leaders involved with the CoC will ever make unifying with other segments of the RM a very high priority. I think there are various reasons for this - the main one being it's simply not very important to them.

I personally believe all Christians are unified whether they know it or not. Those IN Christ are IN Christ together.

It was in a town near Rogers. I can't recall the name. The story is from a close friend of mine from his childhood. This would've been about 30 years ago. My family is from a small town called Saratoga, about 30 miles out of Texarkana, btw. So I do have Arkie roots.

I agree with your point; however, that short, terse post is hardly going to get the board jumping again. I don't want to start up another thread on evolution or instrumental music, but I will if you all make me.

 

[crawfish]

Also, I feel that it SHOULD be important. We are facing a huge challenge today - Islam is growing by leaps and bounds in the U.S. Secularism is on the rise. Fewer Christians are attending a church than ever before. The media is in our face supporting lifestyles and choices that are blatantly against what Christians stand for.

We are still powerful as a united front. Dividing ourselves only gives our enemies more ammo.

 

[crawfish]

I don't want to start up another thread on evolution or instrumental music, but I will if you all make me.

I'M NOT KIDDING, PEOPLE!!!

 

[JDIBe]

A thread on unity in the Church that begins...."....I'm going to have to stir up some more controversy.".

Nice......

 

[crawfish]

Grrrr....

 

[JDIBe]

 

[crawfish]

Hello? Is this thing on?

 

[DerSchweik]

Unity is something on my heart, particularly over the past ten years or so. Staunch cofC'er myself, and likely to remain so - if only because my beliefs on the importance of the Word, the focus on getting back to the basics, and the general conservative nature of the cofC most matches my beliefs and personality.

I've been through my phase of "only cofC'ers are Christians" - and done the attendant damage that comes with such a stance.

My beliefs are "firm" w/r to what I believe the bible teaches about God's will regarding our response to the gospel and, owing to the fact that when I teach the bible to someone, that's one of the things I will most assuredly teach - so the church I attend needs to be in alignment with that lest those I attempt to study with encounter conflicting beliefs on such matters, or that I "run afoul" of other church members/leadership whose beliefs run counter to mine.

Is that "disunity?" I don't believe it is, despite my earnest desire everyone believed the same doctrines, teachings, practices, etc.

I don't think "unity" is necessarily a function therefore of doctrine, teachings, practices - per se - though it is true, certain doctrines and teachings are absolute, and disagreements in the absolutes definitely qualify as reasons for two people not being unified.

For me, unity is more a function of what Christ has done for us - NOT how we have individually (or corporately, as a church) responded to Him. I say this on the basis of how Paul admonished the Corinthians (I Cor 1:10ff) for their lack of unity, "I am of Paul, I of Apollos," etc. The Corinthian problem with unity rested not on what Christ had done for these Christians, but on how they aligned themselves in their response to Christ.

As I said above, this topic has been on my heart for some time. I am working on a theory that disunity is primarily a function of our fear of being "wrong." And in reverse, our confidence "in Christ" is primarily a function of how we have aligned ourselves with members of His body.

This "fear of being wrong" is synonymous with the need to "be right" which I think manifests itself in our need to "contend earnestly for the faith" - most often contending with other Christians who disagree with us, which has the most unfortunate tendency to produce rifts in His body (disunity). Consider, for example, your gut response the next time you encounter someone who believes firmly baptism is not a necessary part of the salvation process; how quickly and earnestly do your rise in defense of your beliefs?

This "fear of being wrong" I think is more a manifestation of our unbelief (or weakness of faith) in the efficacy of His work on our behalf on the cross. Our response to this is, I believe, the same response the Corinthians demonstrated - alignment with others who are "like us." And honestly, I think such alignments are made more on the basis of the flesh than on Christ's work on the cross. And that was Paul's response to the Corinthians.

The Corinthians were proud of who physically baptized them, missing the point of Christ's work, which is the basis of baptism (Rom 6:1ff) in the first place.

I think unity is more a function of our willingness to trust in Christ's work on the cross as efficacious to resolving all our fleshly differences (one day), whether they be in doctrine, teaching, or practice - rather than in how (or with whom) we align ourselves on this earth as Christians.

Peter asked, "...then who can be saved?" to which Jesus responded, "with God, all things are possible."

 

[crawfish]

My beliefs are "firm" w/r to what I believe the bible teaches about God's will regarding our response to the gospel and, owing to the fact that when I teach the bible to someone, that's one of the things I will most assuredly teach - so the church I attend needs to be in alignment with that lest those I attempt to study with encounter conflicting beliefs on such matters, or that I "run afoul" of other church members/leadership whose beliefs run counter to mine.

Is that "disunity?" I don't believe it is, despite my earnest desire everyone believed the same doctrines, teachings, practices, etc.

I don't believe that is disunity either. I feel very strongly that we should be allowed to hold to our personal faiths, even to the point that we believe we have the "right" way of viewing a doctrine, as long as we understand that God is the final arbiter of truth.

I don't think "unity" is necessarily a function therefore of doctrine, teachings, practices - per se - though it is true, certain doctrines and teachings are absolute, and disagreements in the absolutes definitely qualify as reasons for two people not being unified.

Well put.

As I said above, this topic has been on my heart for some time. I am working on a theory that disunity is primarily a function of our fear of being "wrong." And in reverse, our confidence "in Christ" is primarily a function of how we have aligned ourselves with members of His body.

This "fear of being wrong" is synonymous with the need to "be right" which I think manifests itself in our need to "contend earnestly for the faith" - most often contending with other Christians who disagree with us, which has the most unfortunate tendency to produce rifts in His body (disunity). Consider, for example, your gut response the next time you encounter someone who believes firmly baptism is not a necessary part of the salvation process; how quickly and earnestly do your rise in defense of your beliefs?

This "fear of being wrong" I think is more a manifestation of our unbelief (or weakness of faith) in the efficacy of His work on our behalf on the cross. Our response to this is, I believe, the same response the Corinthians demonstrated - alignment with others who are "like us." And honestly, I think such alignments are made more on the basis of the flesh than on Christ's work on the cross. And that was Paul's response to the Corinthians.

I really like this statement. When I finally had to deal with my father after our church went instrumental, he was unable to argue with me from the scriptures; but his plea was, "what if you're wrong?" The old traditions, the things he (and I) had been taught since childhood, were so ingrained that to look at scriptures any other way - even if he could not dispute them - caused him great stress.

However, in the years since, I think he's learned that even though he may not be happy about my choices and will never be comfortable enough to attend my church, he can still be sure of my salvation through God's grace.

I think unity is more a function of our willingness to trust in Christ's work on the cross as efficacious to resolving all our fleshly differences (one day), whether they be in doctrine, teaching, or practice - rather than in how (or with whom) we align ourselves on this earth as Christians.

Again, you hit the nail on the head. Christ unifies us through our shared faith in His death and resurrection. It is not our place to judge how others manifest their faith; we can argue our beliefs, but in the end it is God who will decide, and we must simply love those Christians who we have differences with. Setting up a strong border by refusing to deal with anyone who doesn't do church the "right way" only reduces our ability to affect those with whom we differ.

On a side note: my wife grew up Methodist. We met when she started attending my congregation with a friend. Her father had some very bad experiences with some pretty outspoken CofC people, who essentially told him he was going to hell; after I proposed, he was none too happy. His first words? "That church of Christ boy? Why don't you find yourself a good Methodist?" Thankfully, he grew to love me and has a slightly different view of us today.

 

[bling]

I have lived many places and found there is always much more division when there are more choices. If the number of different conservative “churches” are few among unbelievers or liberal believers, then the few conservative churches seem willing to support each other’s efforts. If there is war or sever Christian persecution then the Churches seem to almost unite in their efforts.

Do you think sever persecution might help unit conservative Christians?
If a person out of obvious Godly type Love suffers and dies because of teaching/serving/showing others Christ, do you feel that person should have your support? Can you stand by that person and call him brother if : both surrounded by people ready to stone you for your believes, both in Iran prison for teaching Christianity, both only “Christians” in small African town, or both living in your home town?

 

[crawfish]

I have lived many places and found there is always much more division when there are more choices. If the number of different conservative “churches” are few among unbelievers or liberal believers, then the few conservative churches seem willing to support each other’s efforts. If there is war or sever Christian persecution then the Churches seem to almost unite in their efforts.

Do you think sever persecution might help unit conservative Christians?
If a person out of obvious Godly type Love suffers and dies because of teaching/serving/showing others Christ, do you feel that person should have your support? Can you stand by that person and call him brother if : both surrounded by people ready to stone you for your believes, both in Iran prison for teaching Christianity, both only “Christians” in small African town, or both living in your home town?

Persecution definitely helps provide unity; I hope we don't have to go that route. I've heard from missionaries that differing sects of Christianity tend to help each other out a lot overseas; a friend of mine from an ICC church runs a ranch/orphanage in Honduras, and has had all kinds of missionary groups come by to fill needs when they have them - even Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses. And he has been quick to help those of other faiths who need it.

Of course, when you're in lands where the majority are not Christians, it's important to not fight each other, as it presents the wrong idea to those you want to convert. I would argue that that is becoming more and more true in the U.S as well as we are becoming more secular.

Unity doesn't mean agreeing; it means working with each other and supporting each other in good works in Jesus' name.

 

[DerSchweik]

I have lived many places and found there is always much more division when there are more choices. If the number of different conservative “churches” are few among unbelievers or liberal believers, then the few conservative churches seem willing to support each other’s efforts. If there is war or sever Christian persecution then the Churches seem to almost unite in their efforts.

A plethora of choices does exacerbate the problem of unity - true; although I don't think choice is the root of our unity issues. If choices were the root of the problem of unity, then the solution to unity is no choices at all, right?

Yours is an excellent observation and can be applied to a lot of other areas in our society (Western) where an (over?) abundance of choice has led to increased sin. I think the real problem is our sinful, fleshly nature - for which abundant choice gives abundant opportunity. Take pornography as an example; it has exploded. A few decades ago, one needed to go out of their way to find porn; today one can do it from the privacy of their home and the Internet. But removing choices (opportunities) to view porn does not eliminate the sin any more than asceticism curbs our fleshly urges (Paul, Galatians).

Do you think sever persecution might help unit conservative Christians?

If a person out of obvious Godly type Love suffers and dies because of teaching/serving/showing others Christ, do you feel that person should have your support? Can you stand by that person and call him brother if : both surrounded by people ready to stone you for your believes, both in Iran prison for teaching Christianity, both only “Christians” in small African town, or both living in your home town?

I do think persecution helps unite Christians - of any sect. And sadly, I also think that persecution is one of God's means (if not His primary method) of getting His people to repent and return to Him. We see the story repeated throughout the bible of God bringing some calamity on His people when they stray from Him.

Here I believe is the crux of the issue - our straying, whether corporately as a congregation or individually, from the Lord - in whom we have true unity. When we, individually or corporately, begin looking to Him again - then and only then will we experience unity as a church.

 

[DerSchweik]

I personally believe all Christians are unified whether they know it or not. Those IN Christ are IN Christ together.

True, Wes. Now if we can just get all Christians to behave in accord to what Christ has done for us... ...then others might actually see the love we have for one another (a love He has given us) and know we are His disciples.

 

[DerSchweik]

A thread on unity in the Church that begins...."....I'm going to have to stir up some more controversy.".

Nice......

Apparently it worked

 

[kasprinkle]

I smiled as I read this thread, sadly remembering an old friend of mine. He became a minister (CofC) in a small church close to my home town. I stopped by to see him on my way home to see my parents. He was talking with me about the local United Methodist pastor who had recently asked him to lunch. "I wouldn't THINK of it!", he told me. "How could I ever have fellowship with a denominational pastor?!?"

I later learned that during that time he was having an affair with his secretary, which I guess was ok since she was CofC, too, but at least he wasn't fellowshipping with a Methodist!!!

 

[bling]

DerSchweik and Crawfish

If you moved to the 7 cities in Rev. 1-4 which would you place membership with?
Do we know of any city in the NT that had more then one congregation?

 

[crawfish]

DerSchweik and Crawfish

If you moved to the 7 cities in Rev. 1-4 which would you place membership with?
Do we know of any city in the NT that had more then one congregation?

No, we don't - there seemed to be only one central "congregation", although obviously there were divisions among them (like at Corinth). History tells us that they eventually did split off into different sects (such as the various forms of Gnosticism).

Which would I place membership with? Well, the only church that nothing is spoken negatively about is the church in Smyrna; but, of course, they were warned of the suffering they were about to endure. Would I have the strength to volunteer for that? I don't know.

On the other hand, based on what kind of Christian I am which church would I belong to? Sadly, I'd have to say the Laodicean church. When I read Revelation 3:16 - So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. - I feel as if it is a message directly to me. My struggle is never about knowledge, but about involvement and making a difference in people's lives. I continue to pray that I'll let God guide me to the place He wants me to be, to use me as He wills.

 

[cremi]

I smiled as I read this thread, sadly remembering an old friend of mine. He became a minister (CofC) in a small church close to my home town. I stopped by to see him on my way home to see my parents. He was talking with me about the local United Methodist pastor who had recently asked him to lunch. "I wouldn't THINK of it!", he told me. "How could I ever have fellowship with a denominational pastor?!?"

I later learned that during that time he was having an affair with his secretary, which I guess was ok since she was CofC, too, but at least he wasn't fellowshipping with a Methodist!!!

Oh the irony!

Sounds something like the idea that Christian music is a big no- no to listen to, but Black Sabbath, Metallica and Def Lepperd are fine.