Thoughts on unity

[RefrusRevlis]

Unity must be based on the scriptures. Where there are differences they should be studied to see whether a common understanding can be arrived at. As for me, I guess you could say I would be from about one of the most conservative churches you could find.

Having "fellowship" with others is a term with different meanings to different people. When it comes to those with fundamentally different beliefs: I would talk with the people, eat with the people, study with people but are they brethren....? No. I don't really think this is fellowship.

In regards to the church chipping in with denominations to help a community... is that the role of the church? Is the church permitted to use the Lord's money for anything not mentioned in the NT? Individually as Christians we are bound to help others, but the church's money should only be used for what the NT permits.

refrus

 

[AnthonyB]

refrus,

Paul collected money from some churches to take to other churches. 2 Cor 8 This was for famine relief from churches in Asia Minor to Judean churches. From one group of churches to a church in another region.

As for doctrinal differences, surely some must fit into the unessential category. Romans 14-15:13 clearly describes several areas that are matters of individual consience, we are not commanded in those examples to study the scripture and come to a common understanding but to be sure in our own minds what we believe and accept each other as we are.

The bible clearly warns us not to be schismatic but make every effort to stay in unity. I think it is essential that each of us examine ourselves to ensure that the things that seperate us from another Christian are truly matters of essential doctrine and not personal convictions (as in Rom 14) Our Lord spent some time in his last few hours praying for the unity of his followers, it would be remiss of us to walk away from any who maybe His people without a real hard look at what may be seperating us from each other and ensuring that reason for the seperation is genuinely a crucial issue.

Fundamental differences do exist and regretably seperate people, but my plea is simply to really make sure it is a fundamental, for the church's history is full of the heartache and evil of many seperations that occurred for what appeared as crucial items at the time but in the light of time have turned out to be often petty grievances. We are Christ's body, not to be in unity is to dismember His body.

 

[crawfish]

In regards to the church chipping in with denominations to help a community... is that the role of the church? Is the church permitted to use the Lord's money for anything not mentioned in the NT? Individually as Christians we are bound to help others, but the church's money should only be used for what the NT permits.

Helping out in the community...I think this is one of the CORE roles of the church! We are to be a blessing to the people around us...visiting widows, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor as we are able.

My congregation "adoped" a school in the area where most of the kids are from poor families. We provided school supplies to all who needed them. We even set up a prefab outside the school where doctors and nurses donate their time to provide free medical care to the schoolkids and their families, most of whom have no insurance. Through this good work we have gotten free publicity and the goodwill of a community, and many are coming to Christ. NOTHING demonstrates the love of God more than His people doing good works.

 

[RefrusRevlis]

Helping out in the community...I think this is one of the CORE roles of the church! We are to be a blessing to the people around us...visiting widows, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor as we are able.

I think that is the role of the individual, not the church. There is a difference.
Refrus

 

[crawfish]

I think that is the role of the individual, not the church. There is a difference.
Refrus

In Acts 6, it was part of the reason deacons were installed in the first place...

 

[AnthonyB]

How about 2 Cor 8:1-4
"Macedonian churches" surely refers to the concerted actions of a group of churches from a region. It doesn't say the individuals in Macedonian churches or even individual churches. Macedonia is not a city but a region.

 

[wmssid]

1) Jesus named, "Wonderful" (Isa 9.6). This word is also defined, "Separate" many times. "The government on His shouders" means "separatism."

2) "Come unto me" is a "separatist" message."

3) The labels "dogs" and "the dead", for the lost, indicate separatism for the saved.

4) Paul applied OT verse to his followers, "Come out from amomg them and be you separate."

5) Their was no "Unity Movement" in the NT. The Roman Catholic Church was founded on "Ecumenical Councils."
The council at Jerusalem (for apostles only), was about DIVISION.
The Jews said they would teach the law to the Jews. At the same time they recognized the authority of Paul to teach against the law to the Gentiles.

6) Verses about "unity" (such as Eph 4.4-6) were limited to "unity" of one congregation.

7) Paul taught that teachers were to be raised in the local congregation.

"And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" - 2Tim 2.2.

This meant, "No foreigners in the congregation." Do not go to another congregation for teaching when you have it at home.

3) John wrote against teachers.

"But the anointing which you have received from Him remains in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will remain in Him" - First John 2.27.

This meaning, "No foreigners in the congregation!"

NOTE: This referred to, "The Gift of the Holy Spirit"; which is gone today (1Cor 13.8-10). But we are not in the OT today, as the apostles were (1Cor 9.20-21). We are in the New Covenant kingdom of God, New Jerusalem, with the 7 Spirits of God (Rev 5.12, 7.12).

The Pope teaches OT, that kingdom of God was Pentecost.
Paul taught "inherit the kingdom of God."
Jesus taught, "the age to come" (Mt 12.31-32). This was in "10 Days" (Rev 2.10); AD 67-77.
This was dated from murder of "Antipas" (Rev 2.13); which was recorded by Josephus.

"He (Little Horn = Papacy) thinks to change ties and law" - Dan 7.25.

"You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons" - 1Cor 10.21.

Separatism is from the Lord Jesus.
Ecumenical Councils are from the Papacy.

wmssid

 

[- DRA -]

1) Jesus named, "Wonderful" (Isa 9.6). This word is also defined, "Separate" many times. "The government on His shouders" means "separatism."

What are your sources for these proposed meanings?

2) "Come unto me" is a "separatist" message."

3) The labels "dogs" and "the dead", for the lost, indicate separatism for the saved.

4) Paul applied OT verse to his followers, "Come out from amomg them and be you separate."

The word "sanctified" carries the idea of being separate or dedicated to God. God's people need to be separate from the world and it's sinful ways.

5) Their was no "Unity Movement" in the NT. The Roman Catholic Church was founded on "Ecumenical Councils."
The council at Jerusalem (for apostles only), was about DIVISION.
The Jews said they would teach the law to the Jews. At the same time they recognized the authority of Paul to teach against the law to the Gentiles.

6) Verses about "unity" (such as Eph 4.4-6) were limited to "unity" of one congregation.

Ephesians 2:1 - 4:16 discusses the "unity" of God's people. Chapter 2 gets to the heart of the matter ... with the removal of the wall of partition between the Jews and Gentiles (i.e., the law of Moses), they were united into one people (i.e., fellow citizens in 2:19).

The council in Acts 15 included more than the apostles. Note verse 6.

7) Paul taught that teachers were to be raised in the local congregation.

"And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" - 2Tim 2.2.

This meant, "No foreigners in the congregation." Do not go to another congregation for teaching when you have it at home.

I beg to differ with your conclusion. Paul was an apostle, who received His teachings straight from the Lord per Galatians 1:11-12. Paul referred to His apostleship in the opening of his second epistle to Timothy (1:1). The idea is the Lord gave instruction to Paul, Paul then taught Timothy, and Timothy would teach others, who would teach others. Thus, they all would be teaching the same things.

Following the events in Acts 2, the gospel spread per the "apostles' doctrine" in 2:42, and spread as the disciples carried the same teaching into Samaria and Judea (8:1), and then to the rest of the world beginning in 13:2. If what you say is true, the church would never have spread beyond Jerusalem.

3) John wrote against teachers.

"But the anointing which you have received from Him remains in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will remain in Him" - First John 2.27.

This meaning, "No foreigners in the congregation!"

Verse 26 sets the context for the next verse: "... Concerning those who try to deceive you." In essence, the thought is not to stray from what they know to be the truth. Note Acts 20:30. False teachers can arise from "within" a church - even from among the elders. Therefore, the issue isn't whether the teacher came from within or outside of a certain church, but whether or not the message they brought harmonized with the apostles' teachings.

NOTE: This referred to, "The Gift of the Holy Spirit"; which is gone today (1Cor 13.8-10). But we are not in the OT today, as the apostles were (1Cor 9.20-21). We are in the New Covenant kingdom of God, New Jerusalem, with the 7 Spirits of God (Rev 5.12, 7.12).

Following Jesus' death per Hebrews 9:16-17, Jesus' will or testament (the New Testament) was established. In light of the imagery used in Hebrews 9, I think of the sermon in Acts 2 as the reading of Jesus' will. Paul was a Jew. Therefore, he could relate to the Jews. However, he also could relate to the Gentiles. That's his point in 1 Cor. 9:20-21. It wasn't that he was still under the old law.

The Pope teaches OT, that kingdom of God was Pentecost.
Paul taught "inherit the kingdom of God."
Jesus taught, "the age to come" (Mt 12.31-32). This was in "10 Days" (Rev 2.10); AD 67-77.
This was dated from murder of "Antipas" (Rev 2.13); which was recorded by Josephus.

I disagree with your logic. True, the kingdom was promised during O.T. times (i.e., 2 Samuel 7), but the kingdom or church Jesus promised to build was that same kingdom. It's why Jesus is introduced as the "son of David" in Matthew 1:1. That's a reference to the promise God made to David in 2 Samuel 7 (see also Romans 1:1-4). Note Colossians 1:13 (approximately A.D. 62). Sinners were being translated out of darkness (i.e., sin) into the kingdom - which is the only kingdom God promised to build.

"He (Little Horn = Papacy) thinks to change ties and law" - Dan 7.25.

"You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons" - 1 Cor 10.21.

Separatism is from the Lord Jesus.
Ecumenical Councils are from the Papacy.

wmssid

No doubt, the Lord instructs His people to be holy and special (NKJV - 1 Peter 2:9), which means they will be separate from the world if they are faithful.

Granted, councils such as those observed under Catholicism and Protestantism are divisive. "Unity" is obtained by appealing to God's word and applying it to our lives, not by the decrees of men.

 

[wmssid]

Consider the chronology of the entire Bible;

1) 1656 years to the Flood; Gen 5 to 7.

2) 430 years from bith of Isaac to Exodux; Gal 2.17; Gen 15.13, Ex 12.41.

3) 502.5 years nation of Israel and Judah; ending in 588 BC.

4) 70 years captivity to 518 BC.

5) 7 Shepherds and 8 Loswer Princes from 539 BC to AD 32.

6) 70 Weeks from 455 BC to AD 32.

7) 5 Months (150 years); Rev 9a.

8) The Day and Hour and Month and year = 391 years and 15 days; Rev 9.16.

9) 42 Months (AD 600-1860); Rev 11.1-2.

10) thousand years; Rev 20.2.

But you sound like your believe the "entire" Bible message is limited to 4 BC - AD 70.

wmssid

 

[- DRA -]

Consider the chronology of the entire Bible;

Okay.

1) 1656 years to the Flood; Gen 5 to 7.

Okay, I'm with you.

2) 430 years from bith of Isaac to Exodux; Gal 2.17; Gen 15.13, Ex 12.41.

Uh ... Gal. 3:17 says there was 430 years from the confirmation of God's "seed" promise to Abraham and the giving of the law (the law of Moses). Let's see ... the law was given about 1445 B.C., so 1445 + 430 = 1875 B.C., right? This puts Genesis 15 and Exodus 12 at about the same time period.

3) 502.5 years nation of Israel and Judah; ending in 588 BC.

Let's see, Jerusalem was destroyed in about 587 B.C. (my favored date), but I'm not sure where the 502.5 comes from. 587 + 502.5 = 1089.5. That's close to the date Saul began to reign in Israel (1050 B.C.). However, the nation of Israel entered the land of Israel in about 1405 B.C. Agreed?

4) 70 years captivity to 518 BC.

Actually, I favor the 70 yrs. captivity starting about 606 B.C., and ending at 536.

5) 7 Shepherds and 8 Loswer Princes from 539 BC to AD 32.

Micah 5:5 is foretelling the Assyrian captivity, which I date about 721 B.C. I'm going to have to disagree with your understanding of this prophecy.

6) 70 Weeks from 455 BC to AD 32.

Aw ... Daniel 9:24-27. The 70 weeks begin with the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Cyrus' decree in 536 B.C.), and ends with the destruction of Jerusalem (see Matthew 24:15) in A.D. 70. Once again, I'm going to have to disagree with your timeline.

7) 5 Months (150 years); Rev 9a.

Okay, I'm game. What do you have in mind. I agree the 5 months is figurative, but how do you conclude it means 150 years?

8) The Day and Hour and Month and year = 391 years and 15 days; Rev 9.16.

Rev. 9:15, right? So, how'd you come up with the 391 + 15/365 years?

9) 42 Months (AD 600-1860); Rev 11.1-2.

42 months = 1260 days = time (1 yr) and times (2 yrs) and half a time (1/2 yr) ... see Daniel 7:25.

10) thousand years; Rev 20.2.

Figurative, right?

But you sound like your believe the "entire" Bible message is limited to 4 BC - AD 70.

wmssid

Really? What made you draw this conclusion?

Now, back to the heart of the matter. Mark 9:1. Col. 1:13. Kingdom promised ... kingdom established. Those who were translated out of darkness (their sins) were translated into it (note Acts 2:38,47). John was also in it (Rev. 1:9).

It's that kingdom (or church) that I'm focused on today. Those unfaithful should be restored to faithfulness by serving in the Lord's kingdom. That's the only restoration movement I'm interested in.

 

[wmssid]

Unity must be based on the scriptures. Where there are differences they should be studied to see whether a common understanding can be arrived at. As for me, I guess you could say I would be from about one of the most conservative churches you could find.

Having "fellowship" with others is a term with different meanings to different people. When it comes to those with fundamentally different beliefs: I would talk with the people, eat with the people, study with people but are they brethren....? No. I don't really think this is fellowship.

In regards to the church chipping in with denominations to help a community... is that the role of the church? Is the church permitted to use the Lord's money for anything not mentioned in the NT? Individually as Christians we are bound to help others, but the church's money should only be used for what the NT permits.

refrus

I have seen very few posts on this forum demonstrating this much respect for the Bible.

wmssid

 

[wmssid]

1) Alexander Campbell, and the Restoration Movement condemned the heresy of "Essentials and Non-essentials." Who is authorized to designate "non-essentials"?

2) Alexander Campbell quoted Romans 15.1 in response to the question, "Why do you fellowship with the unimmersed?"

3) He was only human, but a great man. He once declared himself, "A great philosopher." God condemned philosophy (Col 2.8), because "philosophy" is the study of the opinions of "one man" or "one group."

4) When Campbell wrote on Bible interpretation, he was right more often than wrong. When Campbell wrote on "philosophy" he was wrong every time!

5) For these reasons, I have termed Alexander Campbell, "Mr. 50/50."

"to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Paul repeated this phrase several times in Romans.

Rome was a congregation of Jews under the law, and Genties without the law" (1Cor 9.20-21); as Corinth and Ephesus were.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "STRONG" AND "WEAK."

A) Some eat everything.
B) Some eat only herbs.

A) some honor no specific "day."
B) some had "holy days."

The Jews were under the "Curse of the Law" (Gal 3.13).
The Gentiles were "Free."

BUT THIS WAS A SHORT TRANSITION PERIOD.

God declared he would "slay" Israel (Isa 65.15), and create "New Heavens and earth" (Isa 65.17).

So then, these verses have nothing to do with life today.
The "deceivers" using these verses, are, "Out to get you!"

But, whether they ate all; or, whether they ate herbs only; both parties were saved by faith and dipping and receiving the Spirit.

WARNING: "Why do you not have the Spirit?"

You do not get the Spirit at baptism. This is from the Devil.

A) Jesus was dipped.
B) Jesus prayed.
C) Jesus received the Spirit by prayer; Luke 3.21-22.

John, Chapter 6: "students of Jesus"; meaning, "dipped", were unahppy with His teaching (6.60). "Students of Jesus"; meaning, "dipped" -- "walked with Him no more" (6.66).

So then, some saved by dipping never received the Spirit at all.
This is repeated in a parable, about "evil spirit (sin) gone"; and "man" (temple of HS) "empty"; and 8 evil spirits (sins) returned; Mt 12.43-45.

Watch out for "deceivers"; as Jesus had commanded!

wmssid