Thoughts on Predestination

[Tamara224]

I had some "random" thoughts about the idea of predestination. I just wanted to share them and see what other people think of them.

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I DO NOT want to debate any of this. I know there are many varying beliefs about things that I'll write. Please, if you disagree, feel free to post why you disagree but do not attempt to engage one another or me in debate about this. What I'm really hoping for is that if there are those who are like-minded, we can discuss in a friendly manner and not take this into off-topic discussions. Thank you all for your consideration of my request.

_______________________________________________

So my thoughts were... I've heard countless stories of Christians who were given many opportunities to hear the Gospel, who ran from God, who heard God's call and after accepting Christ, who looked back on their lives and were able to see how everything bad actually led them to God. There are passages in Scripture which discuss the way God chooses us and calls us to Him.

We argue often about the balance between free-will and predistination. Why does it seem that some people hear God's call or are given more opportunities to repent or, even, people who seem to have God's hand more heavily on their lives? And why do some people go through life without ever seeming to hear God's call?

And a thought came to me... I believe God calls everyone to Him, but perhaps the persistence with which God calls and knocks on hearts depends on whether anyone is praying for the person. The Bible says that the fervrent prayers of a righteous man availeth much... So, maybe God "tries harder" (for lack of a better term) to call to Him those people that loved ones are praying for?

Also, somewhat tied in with this idea is something else I've noticed with my own family. My mother's family have been Christians for four generations now. We were all raised in the church, but we all know that people can be in church without actually being Christian. Yet most of my family are sincere in their love of Christ and true believers. So, I wondered... how much of that has to do with the fact that we all have family members upholding us in prayer?

This stuff is probably old hat to a bunch of you. I know I've always known the verse about prayer being powerfull... but for some reason, this little tidbit seemed like such a big revelation to me.

What do you all think?

 

[Tamara224]

Argh... I hate spelling mistakes in Titles... I can't edit it!

Mods, if you see this, can you please fix the spelling of "Predestination" in the title?

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

Here is my view on predestination.

First of all, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would repent. That is the whole reason He sent His Son to die on the Cross. For that reason, He predestined us all to be saved.

If that is the case, why aren't all saved? It is simple, not everyone will accept the call of Christ. God doesn't change, He has put the same promise there for everyone. I also don't think He tries any more or less hard for any one person, regardless of prayer. God is not a respector of persons. He wants everyone to accept, and His love for each person far exceeds anything we can imagine.

How does prayer help? There is no doubt that it does help. Prayer covers a multitude of sins. The Holy Spirit moves through the prayers of the righteous, convicting of sin. In addition, you can add the witness of the believer to aid in a person's choice. But in the end, it still comes down to free will, that God has granted to everyone.

In addition, God lives outside of time. He sees the beginning and the end equally. Time has no meaning to Him. For that reason, God already knows who will accept Him and who will reject Him. Does that mean He didn't choose those who didn't choose Him? No, God chose everyone. He only knew who wouldn't choose Him. Those that did choose Him, He gave the right to become Sons and Daughters of God.

Let's look at this example. Not the best analogy, but I hope it makes sense.

You are invited to a birthday party of a wealthy man. Only this party is different from the traditional birthday party. Instead of bringing gifts, the host is giving out expensive gifts to everyone who comes to the party. He has sent invitations to everyone, and bought gifts for everyone, but only a few people arrive. Those that arrive receive the gifts that was paid for. There were still plenty of gifts remaining, but the invited (predestined) guests never arrived to accept their gifts.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Argh... I hate spelling mistakes in Titles... I can't edit it!

Mods, if you see this, can you please fix the spelling of "Predestination" in the title?

I took care of it for you

 

[Solidlyhere]

Predestination vs. Free Will.

Having one, does not preclude the other.

Let's assume that Predestination exists.
Before I was born, God mapped-out what I am going to do, every minute of every day, for every year of my Life.

Let's assume that Free Will exists.
Each minute of my Life, I can do whatever I want to do.
Neither God (nor Satan) has absolute control on what I think, or what I am allowed to do.

If
1) I am Predestined to do a particular thing on June 21st, 2007, but
2) I do not know that it is Predestined that I do it, then
3) How is this different from having Free Will?

In other words, if God is ONLY one who knows what I am going to do, then I am living my Life the same as if I am exerising Free Will.

By the way, I believe that God has dreamed up the Life I will live, AND that I am fully exercising my Free Will in deciding what I do each day.

 

[jeolmstead]

I think God exists outside of time and space. He is the Alpha and Omega. From His perspective He sees creation as a whole He sees everything beginning to end all at the same time. In other words, He knows what I’m going to do tomorrow because from His perspective I’ve already done it.

Can my destiny be changed?

Sure it can. If God desires it (It’s His creation) I don’t think God has ever put down his paint brush.

John O.

 

[Tamara224]

Great stuff so far, thanks for all your responses.

One thing more...

I guess my thoughts were more along the lines of how prayer changes/affects (if at all) the predestination...

We know that prayer is powerfull, and yet we also know that God is sovereign... But He wouldn't ask us to pray if there was no possibility our prayers would change anything.

But like others have said... the fact that God is outside of time really changes the whole cause and effect paradigm.

 

[Mark2010]

What exactly does it mean to be outside of time? Never quite understood that one.

 

[millerrod]

Why would we even think about predestination it is something only Gods knows. Only God knows who and who will not turn to Him. We have know way to know. We are commanded to spread the Gospel to ALL if we are in any other frame of thinking than that ALL can be saved we are in danger of error for God and God only knows who is predestined to turn to Him.

 

[Tamara224]

What exactly does it mean to be outside of time? Never quite understood that one.

Well, it means God is not subject to it. He is in all times at once but not bound by any. Every moment is "now" for God.

It's not an easy concept to understand and I don't think that many people have ever explained it well (I definitely haven't).

My favorite conceptualization of it is to think of God looking down on a vast myriad of television screens - one for every moment of time from the beginning of creation to the end. They are all playing at exactly the same time. So God can see everything happening at once. But God doesn't have to focus on one at a time - He can focus on them all at once.

It's not a perfect analogy, but it helps me understand the concept.

 

[Mark2010]

So the life of Abraham, the life of Jesus and our lives are playing out simultaneously, but we just don't know it?

Or is what you are saying the same as God being eternal, that he was around to see it all unfold, but it unfolds one bit at a time? Like I was around for the Reagan years, the Clinton years and today, but they didn't all happen at the same time.

 

[Brucea]

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

When I look at predestination I do not think about free will verses God choosing.

As this passage in Ephesians point out, I see the depth of the love and choice of God. It was not a half hearted decision on God's part. In fact, the chapter goes on to say with all His wisdom and understanding He lavished His grace upon me.

Instead of thinking free will, or God choosing. I think I serve a great big wonderful God who has bestowed upon me every blessing in Christ Jesus. It was no accident that he chose me rather he chose me on purpose and He said he did it with all wisdom and understanding! Remember choosing teams when you were a kid. The best went first and the left overs were chosen last. In the kingdom of God there is no left over choices. He has loved us with an everlasting love.

As for prayers making difference in the salvation of others, absolutely.

Why would Jesus instruct us to pray to the Lord of the harvest that laborers would rise up if it had no effect.

Cornelius was a praying man, he and his household were saved!
Acts 11:13 "And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, 'Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter,
14 'who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.'
15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.
16 "Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

Malachi 2:15 But did He not make them one, Having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring. Therefore take heed to your spirit, And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.
God seeks godly offspring.

Proverbs 20:7 The righteous man walks in his integrity; His children are blessed after him.

Your prayers can change things!

 

[Solidlyhere]

"I guess my thoughts were more along the lines of how prayer changes/affects (if at all) the predestination..."

If God has pre-decided what your Life is, then a simple prayer is NOT going to change God's mind.

I look at it like: I was pre-destined to say that prayer, and the fact that a certain prayer is answered has already been pre-destined.
God just sits back, and watches my Life play out, just as God has provided for it.
God allowed me to be created (this was predestined), God will allow me to die ... and everything in-between.

This is why I say that even if there WERE Predestination, all of the things that I WILL do have already been decided, including the 1000s of prayers I have made over the years (AND, all of the prayers I will ever make into the future).
_______________________________

I think that this whole Predestination thing is too advanced for most people to grasp.
One way to know how God Predestined my Life is to look backwards.
Everything that I have ever done was Predestined.
Everything that everyone else in the World has ever done ... BAM ... Predestined.

This fact (if it's a fact) shouldn't be used to give-up trying.
That is a reading that Satan uses to make people Give Up.

If anything, Predestination should be used for Edification: God has Predestined that I will over-come all of my barriers to living a God-filled Life, and I will become Enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and move-on to a wonderful place in Heaven.

 

[Trish1947]

"I guess my thoughts were more along the lines of how prayer changes/affects (if at all) the predestination..."

If God has pre-decided what your Life is, then a simple prayer is NOT going to change God's mind.

I look at it like: I was pre-destined to say that prayer, and the fact that a certain prayer is answered has already been pre-destined.
God just sits back, and watches my Life play out, just as God has provided for it.
God allowed me to be created (this was predestined), God will allow me to die ... and everything in-between.

This is why I say that even if there WERE Predestination, all of the things that I WILL do have already been decided, including the 1000s of prayers I have made over the years (AND, all of the prayers I will ever make into the future).
_______________________________

I think that this whole Predestination thing is too advanced for most people to grasp.
One way to know how God Predestined my Life is to look backwards.
Everything that I have ever done was Predestined.
Everything that everyone else in the World has ever done ... BAM ... Predestined.

This fact (if it's a fact) shouldn't be used to give-up trying.
That is a reading that Satan uses to make people Give Up.

If anything, Predestination should be used for Edification: God has Predestined that I will over-come all of my barriers to living a God-filled Life, and I will become Enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and move-on to a wonderful place in Heaven.

The Bible does say that steps of a righteous man are ordered of the Lord. Sounds pretty predestined in Christ. But then there is obediance to those ordered steps. Even Christians can rebel against Gods goodness and plan for their life. Not that their not already saved, but I do believe that sometimes our own wills can get in the way.

 

[GoldSolThumpkin]

Prayer can change anything.

God is outside of time. He sees all of time continuously past present and future. He can travel back in time and change something that will make your prayer for change not necessary and not happen in the present. We can never see some of the things he could and might be doing. IMO, he sees an ever-changing future. He sees possible pasts that he chooses. The only constant is the present he has made for his creation. It is not his present since he is existing outside of time. The future changes, but he only sees the current conclusion of how events will transpire. As people make free will decisions the future changes and is updated.

 

[Trish1947]

Prayer can change anything.

God is outside of time. He sees all of time continuously past present and future. He can travel back in time and change something that will make your prayer for change not necessary and not happen in the present. We can never see some of the things he could and might be doing. IMO, he sees an ever-changing future. He sees possible pasts that he chooses. The only constant is the present he has made for his creation. It is not his present since he is existing outside of time. The future changes, but he only sees the current conclusion of how events will transpire. As people make free will decisions the future changes and is updated.

I agree. There would be no reason for Jesus to ask us to pray without ceasing, if it was impossible through prayer to effect change. I dont really know if you could call it change really, but prayer being a tool of intervention given to the church to set in motion what God has already predestined. We are called fellow workers.

 

[Atlantians]

I had some "random" thoughts about the idea of predestination. I just wanted to share them and see what other people think of them.

_______________________________________________

I DO NOT want to debate any of this. I know there are many varying beliefs about things that I'll write. Please, if you disagree, feel free to post why you disagree but do not attempt to engage one another or me in debate about this. What I'm really hoping for is that if there are those who are like-minded, we can discuss in a friendly manner and not take this into off-topic discussions. Thank you all for your consideration of my request.

_______________________________________________

So my thoughts were... I've heard countless stories of Christians who were given many opportunities to hear the Gospel, who ran from God, who heard God's call and after accepting Christ, who looked back on their lives and were able to see how everything bad actually led them to God. There are passages in Scripture which discuss the way God chooses us and calls us to Him.

We argue often about the balance between free-will and predistination. Why does it seem that some people hear God's call or are given more opportunities to repent or, even, people who seem to have God's hand more heavily on their lives? And why do some people go through life without ever seeming to hear God's call?

And a thought came to me... I believe God calls everyone to Him, but perhaps the persistence with which God calls and knocks on hearts depends on whether anyone is praying for the person. The Bible says that the fervrent prayers of a righteous man availeth much... So, maybe God "tries harder" (for lack of a better term) to call to Him those people that loved ones are praying for?

Also, somewhat tied in with this idea is something else I've noticed with my own family. My mother's family have been Christians for four generations now. We were all raised in the church, but we all know that people can be in church without actually being Christian. Yet most of my family are sincere in their love of Christ and true believers. So, I wondered... how much of that has to do with the fact that we all have family members upholding us in prayer?

This stuff is probably old hat to a bunch of you. I know I've always known the verse about prayer being powerfull... but for some reason, this little tidbit seemed like such a big revelation to me.

What do you all think?

Why would God try any less hard with the person who was without friend or family to pray for them, than the person who had 50 family members praying constantly?

Prayer aligns us with God, we do not align God to us with our prayer.

 

[Tamara224]

Why would God try any less hard with the person who was without friend or family to pray for them, than the person who had 50 family members praying constantly?

I don't know... Why did God say he hated Esau but loved Jacob?

To ask the question another way... If a person has 50 righteous loved ones praying for their salvation... Why would God not act on the requests of those people by nudging, knocking, etc a little more?

Maybe part of the predestination deal involves the fact that the person who has 50 loved ones praying for them... God knew and even planned that the person would have those 50 loved ones. So He called the person (predestined the person) and them placed them in a life that included those 50 loved ones? Maybe...

Prayer aligns us with God, we do not align God to us with our prayer.

Of course and I'm not talking about trying to manipulate God into doing our will. God forbid!

I'm just pondering the interaction of prayer and God's plan. It's probably just something we'll never fully understand, and I'm fine with that. However it all works, God's in charge and that gives us security. But I do understand the idea that if we believe everything is already predestined it might (not will, but might) result in us not petitioning God for things. So sometimes it feels like I'm holding contradictory beliefs... On the one hand believing that prayer works and on the other believing that God's plan always prevails.

 

[jeolmstead]

Here is something else to consider:

According to quantum mechanics it is necessary for all possible choices to be made. These choices are split off in an infinite number of alternate universes. So, in this universe I have accepted Christ. In another I have not. If this is true while it may appear that my choice was one of freewill, in reality “my choice” in this or any matter is dictated by a fixed law of creation.

http://home.earthlink.net/~dolascetta/FreeWill.html


John O.

 

[Tamara224]

Here is something else to consider:

According to quantum mechanics it is necessary for all possible choices to be made. These choices are split off in an infinite number of alternate universes. So, in this universe I have accepted Christ. In another I have not. If this is true while it may appear that my choice was one of freewill, in reality “my choice” in this or any matter is dictated by a fixed law of creation.




John O.

STOP... you're making my brain hurt!


Also... to add to all of this. My brother was just telling me about a friend who is a mathemetician who just told him that new 'discoveries' in demensions could possibly prove how God can be omnipresent. Something about if there were a being of infinite dimension (we are fourth-dimensional beings), then that being would be in all dimensions at one time. It's crazy cool stuff.