Thoughts from the Book of Job

[KevinT]

I just got done reading (listening) through the book of Job. I have some thoughts and wanted to get the feedback of others. I know there is another thread right now on Job here, but I didn't want to hijack the direction taken there.

Here is my take on Job.

• Job's understanding of the world is that:
  • God is all powerful, and that everything that happens is directly in accordance to God's wishes.
  • God rewards the good and punishes the evil
  • That he, Job, has lived a good life and is therefore deserving of reward.
• Job is then struck by disaster and loss, and he is confronted with making sense of everything. His world model doesn't compute, the logic of his understanding doesn't fit.
• Job's friends try to solve the problem by accusing him of wrong doing.
• Job tries to solve the problem by blaming God for being unjust.
• We, the audience, have extra knowledge that Job's suffering took place because of a conflict initiated by Satan.
• In the end, God shows up and demonstrates that the universe is a complicated place and Job has very little understanding of it. Job acknowledges his ignorance and God forgives him.

Question:

• Job is often portrayed as righteous because he suffered "unjust" misery and kept his faith in God. But wasn't he wrong when he says "The arrows of the Almighty are in me, my spirit drinks in their poison; God’s terrors are marshaled against me." (Job 6:4)? Job thought that God was the only actor in the scene. "When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?"

KT

 

[AlexB23]

I just got done reading (listening) through the book of Job. I have some thoughts and wanted to get the feedback of others. I know there is another thread right now on Job here, but I didn't want to hijack the direction taken there.

Here is my take on Job.

• Job's understanding of the world is that:
  • God is all powerful, and that everything that happens is directly in accordance to God's wishes.
  • God rewards the good and punishes the evil
  • That he, Job, has lived a good life and is therefore deserving of reward.
• Job is then struck by disaster and loss, and he is confronted with making sense of everything. His world model doesn't compute, the logic of his understanding doesn't fit.
• Job's friends try to solve the problem by accusing him of wrong doing.
• Job tries to solve the problem by blaming God for being unjust.
• We, the audience, have extra knowledge that Job's suffering took place because of a conflict initiated by Satan.
• In the end, God shows up and demonstrates that the universe is a complicated place and Job has very little understanding of it. Job acknowledges his ignorance and God forgives him.

Question:

• Job is often portrayed as righteous because he suffered "unjust" misery and kept his faith in God. But wasn't he wrong when he says "The arrows of the Almighty are in me, my spirit drinks in their poison; God’s terrors are marshaled against me." (Job 6:4)? Job thought that God was the only actor in the scene. "When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?"

KT

The book of Job is a good one, and is heavy, cos it relates to a lot of us in our Christian journey. We have all probably questioned God at some point, but the book of Job does a good job (pun intended) of reassuring us of God's plan. I need to go through Job again, as I first heard the book via Fr. Mike Schmitz in 2021 or so.

These verses all tie in together about how we must weather the discouragement, and Christ can protect us. In the future, a devotional on these four passages might be made: Job 38:1; 8-11, Mark 4:35-41, Matthew 7:24-27, Lamentations 3:19-24

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I just got done reading (listening) through the book of Job. I have some thoughts and wanted to get the feedback of others. I know there is another thread right now on Job here, but I didn't want to hijack the direction taken there.

Here is my take on Job.

• Job's understanding of the world is that:
  • God is all powerful, and that everything that happens is directly in accordance to God's wishes.
  • God rewards the good and punishes the evil
  • That he, Job, has lived a good life and is therefore deserving of reward.
• Job is then struck by disaster and loss, and he is confronted with making sense of everything. His world model doesn't compute, the logic of his understanding doesn't fit.
• Job's friends try to solve the problem by accusing him of wrong doing.
• Job tries to solve the problem by blaming God for being unjust.
• We, the audience, have extra knowledge that Job's suffering took place because of a conflict initiated by Satan.
• In the end, God shows up and demonstrates that the universe is a complicated place and Job has very little understanding of it. Job acknowledges his ignorance and God forgives him.

Question:

• Job is often portrayed as righteous because he suffered "unjust" misery and kept his faith in God. But wasn't he wrong when he says "The arrows of the Almighty are in me, my spirit drinks in their poison; God’s terrors are marshaled against me." (Job 6:4)? Job thought that God was the only actor in the scene. "When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?"

KT

You said:

• God is all powerful, and that everything that happens is directly in accordance to God's wishes.

I would say this is not correct. Evil is not God's wish. What you can say is God allows evil for various reasons. We have free will therefore we produce evil. Job's faith was being tested and his story resonates throughout history of what faithfulness looks like.
Blessings

 

[Hawkins]

God has a high mind. Even when God tells the big picture it may be out of the capability of ancient humans (Jews) to convey, say a full theology to the later Jews, especially later Jewish prophets. All prophets, to a certain extent, may have the same doubt as Job had. Job sets an example for them to not to doubt God, no matter what (perhaps they should doubt only if what they have is worse than Job's, but that's not possible).

Christians can be deemed righteous but wait...do we offend God? We are deemed righteous for a reason, it by no means says that we don't offend God. It depends on what standard is used for the measurement. We are righteous when measured by a covenant, but not God's absolute Law. By a covenantal standard, Job is perfect in many ways. By a human standard Job didn't do anything wrong, that is, he is righteous in front of the covenant he is subject to.

Similarly, Paul can also be considered as righteous even by the standard of the Mosaic covenant. He sinned however, without his own awareness, by persecuting the Christians, let alone that he's a sinner no matter what in front of God's absolute Law. It is because Paul is righteous while being an important messenger of God that Satan certainly will prepare a "special treatment" for him. It is because there is always a gap between covenants and between a covenant and Law that Satan can always find a spot to trap someone as righteous as Paul and Job, most likely without their own awareness. By the time we sinned but without our own awareness, God would hide His face from us and Satan would do whatever by taking that chance, to shake our faith (or rather to shake the faith of an important messenger for him to fail his job).

An important person to God thus should not doubt under all circumstances. The book of Job is to remind all later important messengers (say, the OT prophets) of God that they shouldn't doubt no matter what, because God has a high mind while Satan is much more intelligent than they are.

 

[RandyPNW]

I just got done reading (listening) through the book of Job. I have some thoughts and wanted to get the feedback of others. I know there is another thread right now on Job here, but I didn't want to hijack the direction taken there.

Here is my take on Job.

• Job's understanding of the world is that:
  • God is all powerful, and that everything that happens is directly in accordance to God's wishes.
  • God rewards the good and punishes the evil
  • That he, Job, has lived a good life and is therefore deserving of reward.
• Job is then struck by disaster and loss, and he is confronted with making sense of everything. His world model doesn't compute, the logic of his understanding doesn't fit.
• Job's friends try to solve the problem by accusing him of wrong doing.
• Job tries to solve the problem by blaming God for being unjust.
• We, the audience, have extra knowledge that Job's suffering took place because of a conflict initiated by Satan.
• In the end, God shows up and demonstrates that the universe is a complicated place and Job has very little understanding of it. Job acknowledges his ignorance and God forgives him.

Question:

• Job is often portrayed as righteous because he suffered "unjust" misery and kept his faith in God. But wasn't he wrong when he says "The arrows of the Almighty are in me, my spirit drinks in their poison; God’s terrors are marshaled against me." (Job 6:4)? Job thought that God was the only actor in the scene. "When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?"

KT

I guess the question is not clear enough to me? Are you suggesting that Job--not God is a 2nd actor in the scene?

But I will say this. I'm not sure Job blamed God for being unjust. Rather, I'd say that he appealed to God's justice since He had allowed him to suffer unjustly.

The distinction seems small but it's very important. I don't think Job ever fully rebelled against God, or thought that God was unholy or lawless. On the contrary, he upheld his faith in God to the end, counting on that to convince God to overturn the apparent verdict against him.

It was the *whining* that God found wrong in Job. Job thought that he could convince God that he deserved to avoid the suffering if he had lived a relatively godly life, which of course he had. But God indicated that no man, being a sinner, can convince Him that he is automatically immune from satanic attack simply because he lived a relatively good life. Man had opened the door to Satan by his free will, and Satan by his own free will could respond.

We are forced to be victims both due to our ancient ancestors having opened the door to sin and also due to our own complicity in that Sin Nature. We simply have to be here in a fallen world as long as God gives men freedom to sin.

And He does it so that all will be judged by making their choices clear over time. Some will choose to repent, while others will double down on their rebellion. It is important that we carry on in righteousness even in our suffering so that we demonstrate God's grace to a fallen world.

In the end we are all victims of our own sinfulness. But the righteous are rewarded with God's good pleasure, even though for a time it seems as if God is out to kill us and make us suffer.

 

[BobRyan]

I just got done reading (listening) through the book of Job. I have some thoughts and wanted to get the feedback of others. I know there is another thread right now on Job here, but I didn't want to hijack the direction taken there.

Here is my take on Job.

• Job's understanding of the world is that:
  • God is all powerful, and that everything that happens is directly in accordance to God's wishes.
  • God rewards the good and punishes the evil
  • That he, Job, has lived a good life and is therefore deserving of reward.
• Job is then struck by disaster and loss, and he is confronted with making sense of everything. His world model doesn't compute, the logic of his understanding doesn't fit.
• Job's friends try to solve the problem by accusing him of wrong doing.
• Job tries to solve the problem by blaming God for being unjust.
• We, the audience, have extra knowledge that Job's suffering took place because of a conflict initiated by Satan.
• In the end, God shows up and demonstrates that the universe is a complicated place and Job has very little understanding of it. Job acknowledges his ignorance and God forgives him.

Question:

• Job is often portrayed as righteous because he suffered "unjust" misery and kept his faith in God. But wasn't he wrong when he says "The arrows of the Almighty are in me, my spirit drinks in their poison; God’s terrors are marshaled against me." (Job 6:4)? Job thought that God was the only actor in the scene. "When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?"

KT

1. Job did not write the book of Job.
2. Job is never given the real reason (the one given to the reader in Chpt 1 and 2) for his trial and affliction.
3. God Himself says in Job 2 that the evil befalling Job is not God's will - but that Satan's challenge to God is what is bringing it about.
4. God says "when there is calamity in a city - have I not done it"?
5. David also complains in the Psalms under divine inspiration

Amos 3:

5 Does a bird fall into a trap on the ground when there is no device in it?​

Does a trap spring up from the earth when it captures nothing at all?​

6 If a trumpet is blown in a city, will the people not tremble?​

If a disaster occurs in a city, has the Lord not brought it about?​

Jesus said to Peter "SATAN has asked permission to sift you like wheat - but I have prayed that your faith does not fail"

In Job 1 Satan complains that it is GOD that has set a hedge about all the Job has - and will not let Satan cause disaster to Job.

Job is right to conclude that though there is evil in the world - yet ultimately God IS sovereign and Satan can do nothing unless God permits it.,

Job 6:
8 “Oh, that my request might come to pass,
And that God would grant my hope!
9 Oh, that God would decide to crush me,
That He would let loose His hand and cut me off!
10 But it is still my comfort,
And I rejoice in unsparing pain,
That I have not denied the words of the Holy One.
11 What is my strength, that I should wait?
And what is my end, that I should endure?
12 Is my strength the strength of stones,
Or is my flesh bronze?
13 Is it that my help is not within me,
And that a good outcome is driven away from me?

Job 42:
7 It came about after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is trustworthy, as My servant Job has. 8 Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, and go to My servant Job, and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves, and My servant Job will pray for you. For I will accept him so as not to do with you as your foolishness deserves, because you have not spoken of Me what is trustworthy, as My servant Job has.”

 

[BobRyan]

The fall of satan is found in the OT - in Isaiah 14 and in Ezek 28.
Rev 12 says that the serpent in Gen 3 - is in fact Satan.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I just got done reading (listening) through the book of Job. I have some thoughts and wanted to get the feedback of others. I know there is another thread right now on Job here, but I didn't want to hijack the direction taken there.

Here is my take on Job.

• Job's understanding of the world is that:
  • God is all powerful, and that everything that happens is directly in accordance to God's wishes.
  • God rewards the good and punishes the evil
  • That he, Job, has lived a good life and is therefore deserving of reward.
• Job is then struck by disaster and loss, and he is confronted with making sense of everything. His world model doesn't compute, the logic of his understanding doesn't fit.
• Job's friends try to solve the problem by accusing him of wrong doing.There
• Job tries to solve the problem by blaming God for being unjust.
• We, the audience, have extra knowledge that Job's suffering took place because of a conflict initiated by Satan.
• In the end, God shows up and demonstrates that the universe is a complicated place and Job has very little understanding of it. Job acknowledges his ignorance and God forgives him.

Question:

• Job is often portrayed as righteous because he suffered "unjust" misery and kept his faith in God. But wasn't he wrong when he says "The arrows of the Almighty are in me, my spirit drinks in their poison; God’s terrors are marshaled against me." (Job 6:4)? Job thought that God was the only actor in the scene. "When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?"

KT

There are many misconceptions and false teachings derived from the book of Job.

 

[Rose_bud]

When we read Job, we see the complete story. But when Job was going through his trying time.
He did not know...(Job 1:6-12)
1. Of God's initial statements of him.
2. Of the Satans accusation.
3. God's desire that he not be killed.

So when God's speaks from the whirlwind in the last chapters (Job 38-42).. it's that same thought... Job you do not know.. so his accusation that God is unjust is inaccurate because he did not have the full picture or divine perspective.

God was for him and reveals to him and to us, that He is beyond what our finite minds can comprehend. When we go through circumstances, the first response is usually how could God? or why God?, we question so many things. Our well-meaning friends, our circumstances even ourselves gives us counsel (from a limited perspective) about what God is doing and who He is. But in those time it is the voice of the Spirit that says.. I am the One that counsels the thoughts you think about Me.

 

[bling]

I just got done reading (listening) through the book of Job. I have some thoughts and wanted to get the feedback of others. I know there is another thread right now on Job here, but I didn't want to hijack the direction taken there.

Here is my take on Job.

• Job's understanding of the world is that:
  • God is all powerful, and that everything that happens is directly in accordance to God's wishes.
  • God rewards the good and punishes the evil
  • That he, Job, has lived a good life and is therefore deserving of reward.
• Job is then struck by disaster and loss, and he is confronted with making sense of everything. His world model doesn't compute, the logic of his understanding doesn't fit.
• Job's friends try to solve the problem by accusing him of wrong doing.
• Job tries to solve the problem by blaming God for being unjust.
• We, the audience, have extra knowledge that Job's suffering took place because of a conflict initiated by Satan.
• In the end, God shows up and demonstrates that the universe is a complicated place and Job has very little understanding of it. Job acknowledges his ignorance and God forgives him.

Question:

• Job is often portrayed as righteous because he suffered "unjust" misery and kept his faith in God. But wasn't he wrong when he says "The arrows of the Almighty are in me, my spirit drinks in their poison; God’s terrors are marshaled against me." (Job 6:4)? Job thought that God was the only actor in the scene. "When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?"

KT

The Story of Job seems to make God out to be unconcerned with human’s fate, playing games with humans, easily manipulated, harsh, cruel and satan is on an equal plan with God.



Here are some questions to get you thinking:



1. Was Job spiritually more mature at the end of Job’s story than at the beginning?

2. What problem did Job finally show that he needed correction?

3. Would Job have easily acknowledged this problem prior to the disaster, because he would have realized he had this problem?

4. Would God have known of Job’s problem prior to satan’s visit?

5. Did satan manipulate God to get at Job or did God manipulate satan to get satan to do stuff God could not do (hurt innocent people) and bring Job to the point of accepting God’s understanding of his problem?

6. Does this give us an example of the degree to which God will go in order to help us to grow spiritually?

7. Is this an example of the role satan plays indirectly helping good people become even better?

8. It is “unfortunate” that some of Jobs children went to be with God in heaven and leave Job and his wife, but how big of a price will God pay to help us (send his only son)?

9. We always need to remember “death” is not bad in and of itself (atheist consider a harsh death to be the worst thing possible) it is the way good people get to be with God and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.



Look at this at least:



Job, “He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.” (But that does not mean Job would not have wanted to be better and was not asking God for His help.

1. This is the oldest story thought to be recorded, it could be before the time of the flood.
2. First!! Remember our objective: All humans are to develop and grow in Godly type love (agape) of God and other humans. This needs lots of understanding.
3. God’s objective is the most selfless, in that He has and will do everything to help human individually develop and grow Godly type love (help us fulfill our objective).
4. In the story of Job, we can see God is in charge, satan can only do what God allows Satan to do.
5. God has power over Satan and could destroy Satan at any time, so Satan has a purpose that forces God to allow Satan to stick around.
6. From the story we see Satan doing the bad stuff to good people and God allowing Satan to do this bad stuff.
7. Bad stuff is never bad for the individual that loves God: Rm8: 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. What good can Job get out of this discipline, trial, learning experience?
8. Job would have been praying for himself like he prayed for his kids: Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom. Job’s pray would easily been to ask to love more and grow spiritually.
9. We can not stop, we have to be growing or we will start withering spiritually. Where Job is in his spiritual growth at the beginning seem to be far down the path of growth, so further growing could be a challenge and require a new level.
10. Job is fantastic at the beginning of the story, but he is not perfect, he can still do a lot of growing.
11. I think we can agree that Job is personally a better person (spiritually stronger) at the end of the story then at the beginning, so what was Job’s weakness in the beginning that God would know and realize? If we could figure this out, we could figure what was needed to help Job. Would a burning bush experience help Job?
12. This is another situation in which God works with an individual personally. God is working with each of us very similarly.
13. We do not know how God worked individually with each of Job’s kids, but He was and they joined God in heaven and would be there when Job got there.
14. It has been my experience people (including myself) really hate to humble ourselves. It is like being baptized, people use every excuse for not being baptized that comes down to being a sign of humility, they will not do.

At the end we see a changed Job:



1 Then Job replied to the LORD:

2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'

5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.

6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."

The fact Job talks of “repenting”, means he realized he sinned, so what was Job’s sin?

Here seems to be the problem: Job said: Job 31: 35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; I would present it to him as to a ruler.)—

From this and previous verses Job has lower God to his level like he could argue his case before God and win. Job would not have admitted that deep in his heart early on he saw God as being like some superior human being and not above making any mistakes, so it would take a huge upheaval in Job’s life to get him to realize this weakness in himself.



Job was humbled in the end, but why go through all this, would there not be an easier way? If God had spoken directly to Job prior to all this, would Job not have listened? I would say, “NO”. Job would have said, “I know the Lord” (when he really didn’t) Job would not have said what he did say in the end and that is what he needed to say. How do you get Job to say what he did without going through what he experienced? If you had asked Job in the beginning, “do you know the Lord”, he would have said, “yes” for he knew the Lord better then anyone else at the time. God does not want you to just be the best, but the best you can be and that is what Job wanted.

Just some thoughts, I really love Job and thank God for this story.

 

[KevinT]

You said:

• God is all powerful, and that everything that happens is directly in accordance to God's wishes.

I would say this is not correct. Evil is not God's wish. What you can say is God allows evil for various reasons. We have free will therefore we produce evil. Job's faith was being tested and his story resonates throughout history of what faithfulness looks like.
Blessings

What I said was that I believe this was **Job's** belief. Not that it was my belief-- and actually I believe the opposite. I otherwise agree with your post.

KT

 

[KevinT]

Job sets an example for them to not to doubt God, no matter what (perhaps they should doubt only if what they have is worse than Job's, but that's not possible).

I agree that the message of the book of Job is trusting in God. But in the main question I asked in my OP was the point that Job WAS doubting God. The point I kept hearing Job make was that he, Job, was righteous -- and thus it was not fair that he was suffering. So I disagree that Job, himself, sets an example of not doubting God.

...An important person to God thus should not doubt under all circumstances. The book of Job is to remind all later important messengers (say, the OT prophets) of God that they shouldn't doubt no matter what, because God has a high mind while Satan is much more intelligent than they are.

A good example of this would be Jesus, Himself. I remember all the grief He was put through, and yet He was "as a lamb, silent."

Thanks
KT

 

[KevinT]

I guess the question is not clear enough to me? Are you suggesting that Job--not God is a 2nd actor in the scene?

No. Satan is the 2nd actor. It was Satan that caused all Job's misery, and Job apparently didn't even understand that this was a possibility. He said that if it was not God, "then who is it?"

But I will say this. I'm not sure Job blamed God for being unjust. Rather, I'd say that he appealed to God's justice since He had allowed him to suffer unjustly.

I don't know. Job 7:17-21, below seems to me like he feels God is unjust.

What is mankind that you make so much of them, that you give them so much attention,
that you examine them every morning and test them every moment?
Will you never look away from me, or let me alone even for an instant?
If I have sinned, what have I done to you, you who see everything we do?
Why have you made me your target? Have I become a burden to you?
Why do you not pardon my offenses and forgive my sins?
For I will soon lie down in the dust; you will search for me, but I will be no more.”

In the end we are all victims of our own sinfulness. But the righteous are rewarded with God's good pleasure, even though for a time it seems as if God is out to kill us and make us suffer.

Yes, God is always working for our best good -- even though it doesn't seem like it at the time.

Thanks
KT

 

[KevinT]

1. Job did not write the book of Job.
2. Job is never given the real reason (the one given to the reader in Chpt 1 and 2) for his trial and affliction.

To be fair, we don't know who wrote the book of Job. Could it not have been written by him as a lesson from his life?

3. God Himself says in Job 2 that the evil befalling Job is not God's will - but that Satan's challenge to God is what is bringing it about.

Agreed

4. God says "when there is calamity in a city - have I not done it"?
5. David also complains in the Psalms under divine inspiration

Amos 3:

5 Does a bird fall into a trap on the ground when there is no device in it?​

Does a trap spring up from the earth when it captures nothing at all?​

6 If a trumpet is blown in a city, will the people not tremble?​

If a disaster occurs in a city, has the Lord not brought it about?​

We don't know that every Psalm was written under the inspiration of God. What about the book of Proverbs? Was every one of those truism that Solomon collected directly inspired by God? I feel much of the Bible was written by human beings, who were following God and recording their experience. When David, who loved God very much, cries out in the anguish of his soul and writes it into a psalm. I feel that is coming from David, not a dictation from heaven. Certainly God has communicated with mankind and with His prophets, and in some places His words are recorded. But not every text is that way.

I am struggling with this passage from Amos. It is hard for me to think about God doing negative things, but there are many instances where the Angel of the Lord would pass over a city and multitudes would die. I'm going to need to digest this some more.

Jesus said to Peter "SATAN has asked permission to sift you like wheat - but I have prayed that your faith does not fail"

In Job 1 Satan complains that it is GOD that has set a hedge about all the Job has - and will not let Satan cause disaster to Job.

Job is right to conclude that though there is evil in the world - yet ultimately God IS sovereign and Satan can do nothing unless God permits it.,

I'm not sure Job concluded that there is evil in the world. I think he saw everything in terms of humans acting on earth and being either rewarded or punished by heaven. If he didn't know about Satan, then he might not have had the concept of general evil being let loose on mankind.

If God is the boss, and He can do whatever he wants, would you say he did something that He didn't want to? What issues do you think were at play in this interchange?

Job 42:7 It came about after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, ... you have not spoken of Me what is trustworthy, as My servant Job has.”

This is a bit confusing to me. First God chastises Job for his foolishness, and then turns around and says that Job has spoken "what is trustworthy."

Thanks for the feedback.

KT

 

[KevinT]

When we read Job, we see the complete story. But when Job was going through his trying time.
He did not know...(Job 1:6-12)
1. Of God's initial statements of him.
2. Of the Satans accusation.
3. God's desire that he not be killed.

So when God's speaks from the whirlwind in the last chapters (Job 38-42).. it's that same thought... Job you do not know.. so his accusation that God is unjust is inaccurate because he did not have the full picture or divine perspective.

God was for him and reveals to him and to us, that He is beyond what our finite minds can comprehend. When we go through circumstances, the first response is usually how could God? or why God?, we question so many things. Our well-meaning friends, our circumstances even ourselves gives us counsel (from a limited perspective) about what God is doing and who He is. But in those time it is the voice of the Spirit that says.. I am the One that counsels the thoughts you think about Me.

I fully agree with you. God is pulling back the curtain in this book, letting us know the wider conflict that is going on -- issues larger than any one person, be that Job or me.



KT

 

[KevinT]

The Story of Job seems to make God out to be unconcerned with human’s fate, playing games with humans, easily manipulated, harsh, cruel and satan is on an equal plan with God.

I don't see God in this way at all in Job. I see God commending His servant Job, and then having to deal with the accusing Satan.

1. Was Job spiritually more mature at the end of Job’s story than at the beginning?

I don't know about his spirituality. I think he gained knowledge and learned how much greater God is than him. And he learned he needed to be humble.

2. What problem did Job finally show that he needed correction?

I don't know that there was a problem that needed correction. God praised Job when speaking with Satan, and didn't add, "except for that enormous pride of his." Like every human, we all have something to learn. When I see an 8 yr old boy, I could find all sorts of things to criticize him about. His hair's not combed, he forgot their homework, etc etc. But that is normal for his age. So yes Job had room for improvement, but I don't think that the book is at all about correcting the shortcomings of Job. It is about helping us to understand that bad things happen to humans as a result of the conflict between God and Satan.

5. Did satan manipulate God to get at Job or did God manipulate satan to get satan to do stuff God could not do (hurt innocent people) and bring Job to the point of accepting God’s understanding of his problem?

No, God did not manipulate Satan to do His dirty work. I believe God set up the universe and creatures with free will in such a way that things could happen that He might not want. This is different from those who believe that God is Sovereign, and thus everything that happens is exactly the way He wanted it-- including Eve eating the fruit. God allowed Satan to tempt Eve, after warning her to not eat from the tree. And God allowed Satan to bring charges against Job and to let the situation play out -- for the benefit of all who have read the book since.

7. Is this an example of the role satan plays indirectly helping good people become even better?

No. Satan has only had a harmful influence. Yes, Satan's evil has been a good contrast to God's loving kindness. But God's goodness could be appreciated without the devil just fine. I am not willing to give Satan any credit.

8. It is “unfortunate” that some of Jobs children went to be with God in heaven and leave Job and his wife, but how big of a price will God pay to help us (send his only son)?

Yes, the children were innocent bystanders, caught in the cross-fire. This is a strange aspect to the story. Especially when they are seeming replaced by even better children in the end. But I trust that God will make is all right at the end of time.

9. We always need to remember “death” is not bad in and of itself (atheist consider a harsh death to be the worst thing possible) it is the way good people get to be with God and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

Agreed. It is not explicitly stated that they will rise in the resurrection of the righteous at the end of time, but I would assume they would be.

1. This is the oldest story thought to be recorded, it could be before the time of the flood.

Based on his age, I have often wondered if he was pre-flood. And it the "leviathan" was describing what we call dinosaurs.

1. ...
2. In the story of Job, we can see God is in charge, satan can only do what God allows Satan to do.
3. God has power over Satan and could destroy Satan at any time, so Satan has a purpose that forces God to allow Satan to stick around.

I think "force" might not be the correct wording. I think God has correctly chosen to allow Satan to continue living for a purpose. And I feel that purpose is to let Satan's accusations run their course, and to be proven wrong -- exactly as is shown in the book of Job. I imagine that if God had suddenly zapped Satan out of existence during the gathering of the sons of God, that this might cause a bit of concern among the other sons present. Satan might be viewed as a martyr and his doubts and insinuations could live on in the minds of others. God's method of allowing the experiment with Job to take place makes it clear to all that God is loving and not a tyrant.

1. I think we can agree that Job is personally a better person (spiritually stronger) at the end of the story then at the beginning, ...

From this and previous verses Job has lower God to his level like he could argue his case before God and win. Job would not have admitted that deep in his heart early on he saw God as being like some superior human being and not above making any mistakes, so it would take a huge upheaval in Job’s life to get him to realize this weakness in himself.

I hear what you are saying, and I think like any good piece of literature, there are many lessons that can be learned. Job's personal journey is interesting, but I find the bigger issues more compelling.

Just some thoughts, I really love Job and thank God for this story.

I appreciate your comments and thoughts. Thanks for writing!

KT

 

[KevinT]

The fall of satan is found in the OT - in Isaiah 14 and in Ezek 28.
Rev 12 says that the serpent in Gen 3 - is in fact Satan.

I agree. So Satan, who was appearing with the other sons of God, up in heaven, was a fallen angel. This is all part of the war in heaven, described in Revelation.

Best wishes

KT

 

[bling]

I don't see God in this way at all in Job. I see God commending His servant Job, and then having to deal with the accusing Satan.

I have taught Job to adult classes and these are the comment I hear to begin with.

I don't know about his spirituality. I think he gained knowledge and learned how much greater God is than him. And he learned he needed to be humble.

The “issue”/problem Job has will not be visible to Job and everyone else, until Job goes through a lot of tragedies. We can have hidden problems which we do not know we even have nor can anyone tell we have; we might even deny having the problem if others tried to point it out. Going through tragedies sometimes brings out our weaknesses.

Job at the beginning is blameless (he has “done” nothing wrong), but that does not mean he cannot be better (grow Spiritually).

I don't know that there was a problem that needed correction. God praised Job when speaking with Satan, and didn't add, "except for that enormous pride of his." Like every human, we all have something to learn. When I see an 8 yr old boy, I could find all sorts of things to criticize him about. His hair's not combed, he forgot their homework, etc etc. But that is normal for his age. So yes Job had room for improvement, but I don't think that the book is at all about correcting the shortcomings of Job. It is about helping us to understand that bad things happen to humans as a result of the conflict between God and Satan.



No, God did not manipulate Satan to do His dirty work. I believe God set up the universe and creatures with free will in such a way that things could happen that He might not want. This is different from those who believe that God is Sovereign, and thus everything that happens is exactly the way He wanted it-- including Eve eating the fruit. God allowed Satan to tempt Eve, after warning her to not eat from the tree. And God allowed Satan to bring charges against Job and to let the situation play out -- for the benefit of all who have read the book since.

First off: God does not have “dirty work” to do, but God has great works to do in helping individuals. In doing these great wonderful helping of humans, God might need innocent people to be murdered, innocent people to be hurt, and other tragedies, which satan is happy to do.

Man has very limited “free will”, most choices are the result of our environment and genes (we cannot just fly around the room, make a trillion dollars before we are twenty, change the color of our eyes, and so on). We only need free will choices to fulfill our earthly objective.

Eve’s sin takes lots of explaining, but God knew that they would sin in the situation of the Garden, satan was there to help us understand his power and roll, and to expedite the inevitable. Eve was already: coveting, lusting, being selfish and not helping Adam at the time prior to eating. Satan just provided logic, support and lies to help her satisfy her “sinful” desire. These “desires” were not sin at the time (there was only one way to sin), but Eve was needing help at the time to quench these desires sooner than later.

Satan did not but sinful thoughts in Job’s head about the limited sovereignty of God, but with these tragedies and “help” from Job’s friends Job will outwardly sin.

No. Satan has only had a harmful influence. Yes, Satan's evil has been a good contrast to God's loving kindness. But God's goodness could be appreciated without the devil just fine. I am not willing to give Satan any credit.

The “credit” all goes to God for allowing satan to roam the earth, making people aware of their need for God’s help. We cannot fright spiritual evil beings on our own, so we need to allow God (through the indwelling Holy Spirit) to fight Spiritual evil beings. We need to be codependent on God.

Yes, the children were innocent bystanders, caught in the cross-fire. This is a strange aspect to the story. Especially when they are seeming replaced by even better children in the end. But I trust that God will make is all right at the end of time.

Everyone dies if Christ does not return first. Death is not “bad” in and

Of itself, but this does show us how far God will go help an individual.

What “crossfire” are you talking about?

Agreed. It is not explicitly stated that they will rise in the resurrection of the righteous at the end of time, but I would assume they would be.




Based on his age, I have often wondered if he was pre-flood. And it the "leviathan" was describing what we call dinosaurs.



I think "force" might not be the correct wording. I think God has correctly chosen to allow Satan to continue living for a purpose. And I feel that purpose is to let Satan's accusations run their course, and to be proven wrong -- exactly as is shown in the book of Job. I imagine that if God had suddenly zapped Satan out of existence during the gathering of the sons of God, that this might cause a bit of concern among the other sons present. Satan might be viewed as a martyr and his doubts and insinuations could live on in the minds of others. God's method of allowing the experiment with Job to take place makes it clear to all that God is loving and not a tyrant.

God can only do the very best thing, so if the very best thing that can be done includes satan roaming round than that is what God will do (is forced to do).

I hear what you are saying, and I think like any good piece of literature, there are many lessons that can be learned. Job's personal journey is interesting, but I find the bigger issues more compelling.

God willing to do almost anything to help willing individuals grow Spiritually, is a huge fact for us to realize.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Consider:

Job 1:8
And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?'

This verse reveals two important things:

1. One is that Satan had already set his heart against Job to do him harm, but failed because he found an alleged "hedge."
2. Second, God was not asking Satan IF he had attacked Job. God knew that. God was asking Satan WHY he had attacked Job…

"…hast thou set thy heart against my servant Job because there is none like him in the land? Is THAT why you attempted to attack him?”

We can see that Satan had already tried to get Job and did so without asking for any permission. Once we realize this "permission" issue is bogus, the rest of the conversation will fall into place. We proceed to the next verses with the correct context. The context was set by God when He asked Satan WHY he had attacked Job, and God asserts the answer:

"(Did you try to attack Job) because there is none like him in the land? (Did you try to attack him) because he is a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?"

 

[KevinT]

Eve’s sin takes lots of explaining, but God knew that they would sin in the situation of the Garden...

I think this depends on your belief in predestination and foreknowledge. I personally do not feel that Eve was predestined to sin.

Eve was already: coveting, lusting, being selfish and not helping Adam at the time prior to eating.

If we consider "sin" to mean doing something that is not for the best, then maybe she was sinning before she at the fruit. But if she had not believed the serpent and eaten the forbidden fruit, and instead had walked away, do you think the "sin" would have led to Christ having to die on the cross? I have always thought that the moment of proper sin was the actual eating of the fruit.

What “crossfire” are you talking about?

Satan used to be a highly exulted angel in heaven before he rebelled and was expelled from the mountain of God (Isaiah, Ezekial). There was a conflict between God and Satan (Revelation) long before our parents fell and joined the rebellion, and the events of Job were just one more skirmish between them. Satan was just using Job to advance his accusations, making a bigger point that people like Job are only loyal to God when times are good. And that if their comfort is removed, they will turn on God. So Job became a pawn in the battle. He survived, but his children did not. They were lost as a result of the conflict, the "crossfire."

God willing to do almost anything to help willing individuals grow Spiritually, is a huge fact for us to realize.

Thanks for your thought!

Best wishes,

KT