Thoughts about Greg Killian's site/articles?

[ShirChadash]

Sojeru, just a note, Achi. I don't feel as though I have called Killian into question -- what I do know is that on the internet, anyone may "be" who they claim to "be" whether it is truth or fiction. What I also know is that it is my responsibility, as a follower of Yeshua, to be certain that those I am allowing to teach me/influence my walk in Him, are truly men of G-d who are not deceivers and liars, or somehow less than safe for me/my family to be learning from. So I asked the question about Killian, because I very much appreciate his articles and work. I have checked and read this thread in earnest, to be sure. Thank you all for your responses so far!

The one thing I have to say that I consider a good thing, on Killian's behalf, is that he seems to have nothing to hide -- I like that his email is right there on his site, I like that he seems willing for his work to be read/challenged/questioned, he even has an address and phone number on his autobio page. This says to me he is at least willing to be a relatively open book -- no secrets, no secret personae, etc. I hope that is true.

I will say it gives me pause to hear of what I consider to be some rather culty behaviors connected with those he is among (did I get that right?) but, since I am merely learning from his work and articles and study, and so far I haven't seen anyone question his articles, I'm content that my questions have been addressed. I most certainly didn't mean any offense to Killian nor to anyone connected with him.

Enjoy your Shabbat, everyone

as always, love,

~Z~

 

[simchat_torah]

Thank you, Yafet. I apreciate your willingness to answer this question, and all my questions, patiently, and with such simplicity and clarity.

You are certainly most welcome Planny

 

[sojeru]

Hi Zemirah,

what I said was no way intended for you...
but if you feel the need to speak with him do so, please, by all means.

also, this cultish behavior that Simchat has brought up- personally, I have never heard of it being as a LITERAL teaching that it is a "thus saith the lord" kind of thing in Judaism.
Maybe His Excellency Yafet and other Jews are misunderstanding those Jews that do infact say, that what a Rabbi rules is as if G-D said it himself.
These people who are going against it are maybe going against those who make it a literal teaching and thus are fighting off anyone who says this in fear that they are using this LITERALLY. to make this a literal teaching is wrong!
However, if one can se the allegorical sense to it- then it is respected.
which is the way we use it- in Judaism itself there is little room for cults because of the many laws that are observed though MANY errors are happening each day.
like for example- the estimating of time that the Messiah will come is being done now in Orthodox Judaism (not all branches- i think it is the Hassidim- but I am not sure as to which group exactly)
[Moderator edit of statement due to lack of scriptural support]

shalom u'brachot
and good shabbat

 

[Mikhael]

Shalom All,

I hope it's alright to post here since I understand that I'm somewhat restriced to the Jewish Debate section.

I do feel that it is rather important that i do post here because of the nature of the post. First of all, I'm rather disapointed that the moderators have not caught (and stopped) the serious Lashon HaRa that's been going on in this thread. What has happened here is a defamation of character of Mr. Greg Killian / Paqid Hillel ben David.

I have personally known him (in more of an aquantence situation) for about four years. He and I have exchanged emails off and on during that time. I will vauge for his character.

Yafet, you made the comment that neither he, nor his mother nor his grandmother were observant and so therefore he has to do a conversion to be halachically recognized. First of all, this is not true. I know of what your speaking about and what the Chassidic community says is that they should go through a "benefit of the doubt" conversion. It is only for themselves. This aside, it's not Killian's case anyway. You said that his situation was that of family rumors. That used to be true. Killian's Hebrew name is Hillel ben David. However, it wasn't always that. He used to go by the name of Hillel ben Avraham. When I saw that he changed it, I questioned him. He told me that his Rabbi (teacher as he calls him) changed it when he found out that his grandmother was born in a Jewish cemetary. You have to be Jewish to be buried in their cemetary. His Rabbi then said, we now have proof that you're Jewish, so you are a Ba'al T'Shuvah. Is Killian a Ba'al T'shuvah? Yes.

What happens is that we hear rumors in the rumor mill and set up cautions. It's rare that people go to to source and find out the truth. I plan to send Killian an email not only letting him know of this thread, but also that I'd recommend that he ammend his biography if he's not included the piece of info about his grandmother's burial place. Now, I say that I plan to do that, but only Hashem knows if I'll get to - I'm very busy all the time.

Concerning Killian's web site. I like his site. I have for a long time. As I've mentioned before on this site, I used to be Messianic and am not anymore. That's my thing though. In my opinion, Hillel ben David is the ideal follower of Yeshua. What do I mean? I mean that he is jewish. He does not believe that Yeshua is Deity, nor does he believe in the virgin birth. He follows Torah, both of them. He wears a kippah and tzitzit to work everyday and loves HaShem. With his beliefs being what they are, he is no different than a Moshiachist from Chabad that believes Schneerson is the Messiah. Perhaps he's a better Jew because he's not diefying his messiah.

Concerning communal living and things that look "cultic". G'valt! First I should say that I'm not sure what is meant by communal. Do you mean it in the sense that we have in LA or NY? The place where Community lives in the same "community"? Or are you talking about selling your stuff and living together on one estate? If it's the first, isn't that what the Orthodox have been doing for centuries? That's what a Schtettal was all about in Russia. You need community to help encourage and keep you accountable. If we're talking about living in one estate (not necessarily one house) isn't that called a kibbutz in Israel? More than that, isn't that a New Testament idea? Remember in Acts when the people all sold their stuff to be together in a collective? If that's cultic, so is the New Testament. These guys live their lives trying to model after the New Testament. Let's not mock it because it's not something that familar to us. That's a very common thing in humanity, we mock what we don't know because it's uncomfortable. I commend them because they're trying to form a community that can support each other, live Orthodox and still have faith that Yeshua is the Messiah. I think Killian is as much a Jew as Chaim Goldberg in Crown Heights.

Another issue that we have today is a lack of history and knowlege. The idea that when your Rabbi says something it's like if G-d said it himself is very very very Jewish. Not everyone has to agree with Yosef ben Haggi or Killian, but we should not be condemning them either. When looking at Halacha, lets say in the laws of Niddah, we see constantly "one should consult their Rav". Your Rav has the final say. It doesn't matter that the Rav 2 miles away disagrees, you're under your Rav and that's what you follow. That, my friends, is Halacha. You submit yourself under a Rav because he's been trained to think critically and trained in all areas of halacha. We may be knowlegable about things, but it is the Rav's position to make halachic decisions. I highly recommend "How Halacha adapts to a changing world" on the AishAudio website. It's a sermon given by Rabbi Yitzchak Berkowitz. They are free, this will help you to understand the inner workings of Halacha today and why a Rav is not only important, but needed.

One last thing. In America we live in what is primarily an Ashkanazik society. If you've ever wondered why Killian and Sojeru speak in those "Your excellency's" and such is because they're from a very formal Sefardic background. The Sefardim and the Ashkenazim are very different in many ways. It used to be that student's had a sole teacher and they stuck to that teacher, learning everything they could and went out in that teacher's name. this is seen especially in Mishnaic period. The Sefardim follow that style more closely than the Ashkenaz do. What many of the Ashkenaz did was have a Rebbe for an area and many were under him, but the Sefardim followed very closely this teacher student relationship. they did what their teacher said, how they said it and when they said it. What Killian and Sojeru do is exactly the same. It's not a cultic practice, it's an ancient Jewish practice.

I, like someone else stated above, do not recommend Killan to new messianics or even those that have been in it a while but are content to have limited knowledge. He is VERY Kabbalistic and much of what he talks about is well above the heads of the common man. His teachings are deep and require much knowlege of Judaism. If one is new or knows little of Judaism, they are not suited for Killian. In fact, there is still a lot of anti-semetism even within Messianic circles, which shows a lack of knowlege of the Jewish religion.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this. If this was offensive to anyone in anyway, it was far from intended to be so. I tried t speak in generalities when I could so that nobody felt that I was directly pointing to them.

In conclusion (for real this time) I hope that we can all agree that we should not talk about someone's credibility especially when the things we've heard about them were rumors to begin with.

I have only 15 mintutes left until Shabbos starts so I must get going.
Good Shabbos all,
Mikha'el

 

[simchat_torah]

Yafet, you made the comment that neither he, nor his mother nor his grandmother were observant and so therefore he has to do a conversion to be halachically recognized. First of all, this is not true. I know of what your speaking about and what the Chassidic community says is that they should go through a "benefit of the doubt" conversion.

No. I am speaking of the act of conversion.. My mother, a christian, is of Jewish heritage (and my father, but that's another point in itself). I can not simply do Baal Teshuvah. Baal Teshuvah is for one who is returning to Judaism. It is allowed that if one's parents were adherents to Judaism, but the individuals themselves were not observant, that they may do Teshuvah (repentance) and become a Baal Teshuvah because of the promises given in the Tenach. However, the Orthodox will not let me (for example) simply become a Baal Teshuvah but I must convert because neither I, nor my parents were Jewish by faith. They were christians, as was I.

If I want the full rights of Aliyah, I must go through conversion. No ifs, ands or buts.

Even more so... I would not be allowed to become a Baal Teshuvah because of my beliefs in Y'shua as Moshiach ben Yossef (messiah, son of Joseph). When one goes before the Beit Din, repents (teshuvah) they must also denounce all that is 'pagan'. To the Beit Din, viewing Y'shua as Moshiach is pagan.

So... this can not be so. Either Killian denied Y'shua (which I'm not condemning, that's his choice) or he isn't a Baal Teshuvah. I can see the Rabbi making a stretch and going on the faith of a grandparent rather than a parent for him to make Teshuvah, but the messiah issue is a no go.

You know this Mike. You nearly converted while Messianic and knew this would be a problem. I have known of others who lied before the Beit Din in order to finish their conversion. Did Greg do this? Or was he not truly a Baal Teshuvah?

The Beit Din today has become wise to many messianics who try to convert. They used to ask if you believed "jesus" was the messiah... now they ask you if you believe "yeshua" is the messiah. So many messianics have come into the Jewish community through deception that they have changed the way one makes Teshuvah (and/or conversion).

He wears a kippah and tzitzit to work everyday and loves HaShem.

Wonderful. I have never thought anything negative of him... other than the issue of his claim to be recognized as Jewish by the Beit Din. And this I don't outright declare as a falsehood... maybe there's more to the story that I don't simply know. If he wants to share, or if someone who knows him wants to share... by all means, come forth. However, as the story stands, there are many gaps. This was pointed out to me by those who do despise him. I do not. I have ALWAYS enjoyed his teachings, and have thought highly of him.

Like I gently stated from the beginning... I merely keep my distance till the dust settles.

When all things are revealed, then maybe he will get my personal stamp of approval
But until then, I choose to remain back here.... with a watchful eye.


As far as your charge to me committing L'shon Hara? nonesense. I have made up no rumors. I have not spoken ill of him. There isn't a single thing that I have done to enter L'shon Hara. I have concerns, as we all should... there are unanswered questions... things that don't add up. But I have spoken nothing but good... such things like I enjoy what he teaches, etc.

Concerning communal living and things that look "cultic". G'valt! First I should say that I'm not sure what is meant by communal. Do you mean it in the sense that we have in LA or NY? The place where Community lives in the same "community"? Or are you talking about selling your stuff and living together on one estate? If it's the first, isn't that what the Orthodox have been doing for centuries? That's what a Schtettal was all about in Russia. You need community to help encourage and keep you accountable. If we're talking about living in one estate (not necessarily one house) isn't that called a kibbutz in Israel? More than that, isn't that a New Testament idea?

I actually think communal living is a great thing. Please carefully read my words... here, I'll quote them for you:

Some have also put into question certain cult like practices (such as communal living, etc) that he and his believers practice.

Some... not myself... have (read this carefully) put into question.... certain cult LIKE practices....

When someone has all of the qualities and characteristics of a cult, it tends to make people leary. The problem is, what took place in Acts might very well be considered cult-like in today's society.

Now, for the record, look at the very next sentance I said:

I don't really have a problem with any of it personally, but often certain things do reflect 'cultish' like images in the mind.

Mikha'el, if we weren't such good friends, I'd ask for an apology the way that you're reacting to me here in this thread. You're painting me in some very bad colors.



Now for my personal question to you:
After such experiences as Rabbi Cohen, James Trimm, etc... do you think I am being unwise to give caution? Do you really think that I am being so brash as to bruise someone through L'shon Hara?

Or... do you think I am being 'wise as a serpent'?

consider these things achi... please consider.

Shalom,
yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

Maybe you haven't been so hurt by those who were seemingly beyond reproach on the internet... but I have been let down many times. I am going to be careful of who I uphold in high regard these days.

I think very highly of Greg Killian... but there are still things that don't add up and I have every right to question them. Especially considering I feel that in some way I am placed over some of the sheep here as a protector. I often filter out the nonsense that comes on these forums claiming to be 'jewish' or 'messianic'. Many here are brand spanking new to the movement, and there's sooo much garbage out there (lord knows you know this achi)...

c'mon now. L'shon Hara?

*sigh*

 

[simchat_torah]

Another issue that we have today is a lack of history and knowlege. The idea that when your Rabbi says something it's like if G-d said it himself is very very very Jewish.... When looking at Halacha, lets say in the laws of Niddah, we see constantly "one should consult their Rav".

Yes.. "consult". Consider as G-d? Quite hardly.
Let me fill you in on some things...
There are those who won't even post on a topic until they ask their Rabbi if they can. Is this not extreme? Another example, my sister asks her pastor what types of cereal to eat, where to work, etc. There is a line that is drawn where things do go beyond 'consulting' and enter the realm of the weird.

I certainly do believe in giving respect. I have never questioned Sojeru's use of "your excellency". While it is alien to our American culture, I understand why he does so.

But to call their words the words of G-d...
*sigh* A bit extreme.

Well, that's putting it lightly, but if you want to discuss this matter via pm's or chat... I have much that I'd rather not say in the public forums concerning this very topic. I'll leave it merely at what I've stated thus far.

shalom,
yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

However, as the story stands, there are many gaps. This was pointed out to me by those who do despise him. I do not. I have ALWAYS enjoyed his teachings, and have thought highly of him.

I thought I had made this clear from the beginning of the thread. I really want this point to be emphasized.

I only openly discussed my concerns with his claim to be a Baal Teshuvah because I was pressed to do so.

I originally left it at: I love his stuff, think highly of him... but want to remain distant for the time being until things come out that are in question.

That's all I've ever said...


Plese don't read anymore into it than that.

 

[sojeru]

Greetings your Excellencies Mikhael and Yafet,

wow!
lol
I really did not hope for it to be like this.
but thank you both for sharing what you shared.

And Yafet, I think that you are very wise in your dealings with this "dust"
however, I suggest that you somehow communicate with him if you believe that this is needed.
maybe you can open it as a question of such manner..."can a person who believes in Yeshuah as only the Messiah and not a diety convert through Orthodox Judaism?"

then hey, maybe he may provide some great insights or maybe not.

and then afterwards you may dive into your concerns
please share with us, if not publically, at least throough PM's what you have learned.

but no I do not think this is Lashon Hara...

note to Mikhael,
dear friend- I have learned that His Honor does not care for any accusations against him of any sort- so if you were to share this with him, he may just pass it off as nothing.
I believe that we are not to care at all about what others think of us.
So if they speak ill of us or not, that is not supposed to be our concern.
But thank you for defending my good Counselor, he is indeed an awesome teacher.

shalom u'brachot to you both,
Antonio

 

[Plan 9]

I don't have the impression from reading this thread that anyone has spoken ill of him, or disparaged him as a teacher. All they have done is expressed concern regarding trust issues.
Please read Flavius's post again. Most of us have either had experiences like his, or we've had our trust betrayed by the leaders who presented themselves as believers who were dedicating themselves to us by running internet sites, but were out to make money off of us only...or, in my case, both. I find it hard to believe that Mr. Killian himself wouldn't warn you to be cautious in similar circumstances.
Am I wrong in thinking that, sojeru?

 

[sojeru]

Hi PLan 9
I am not the one you should be questioning

but no, i do not believe that you are wrong- you are correct to say that we should be cautious.
However, His Honor does not make money from his articles or anything of what he does except for his work in computers.
and he is actually the one taking care of me concerning money issues.

so I give him great respects.

blessings Plan 9