• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Thought about something Specific

Greg1234

In the beginning was El
May 14, 2010
3,745
38
✟19,292.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Science already has a commitment to materialism. All natural phenomena are explained as if only natural causes exist. That can be just as false as saying outright that only natural causes exist.

Exactly! And when you look closely at physical science you see that the idea of "debunking God" was an invalid, preposterous and frankly nonsensical from the start. Not even their position supports that doctrine.

In technological advancements for example,the claim is that we work very well "without God" and hence the upholding of methodological naturalism. Yet, we worked very well with mail carriers on horse back without any use for invisible electromagnetic fields and atoms which are less perceptible properties of reality. Today we have cell phones, internet, radar, all based on those discoveries (which were right there) and which we consider better and a step up. But we were doing "just fine" with horse back riders.

The commitment to methodological naturalism is simply that they will discover a purely naturalistic cause of reality. Yet the trend shows that with advancements we are getting finer and finer and even gravitating towards intelligence. In the human body we went from organs to a blob of gel, to a highly complex cell, to a DNA code to a DNA biocomputer, and now inferring a non-local information field as the cause. We went from elements as a cause to atoms to sub atomic particles and now inferring a non local quantum level which even touches on omnipresence. Where is the movement towards matter?

We say that God is the foundation, at the finest, smallest point, ominipresent and most powerful. Hence the claim that science is not heading towards God is a claim that science is not heading towards smaller and finer points of reality as a cause "hence the prior debunking of God" and a commitment to methodological naturalism.

But the trend I see here is that the anti thesis of God, plainly perceptible causes and foundations, is what is being debunked. And we both know what the antithesis of Theism is. You keep making theories based on one level, a finer level is discovered, and then its all the craze.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
I think what you are referring to is that proponents of intelligent design oppose the theory of evolution because it uses natural causes alone.



They do that, but that is not what I am referring to. I am referring to confusing two different concepts:

1. the fact that science (all science, not just evolution) is committed to understanding and describing natural causes and only natural causes

2. the philosophical position that all causes are natural.

Those are not the same concepts at all, but ID materials constantly (and I would say deliberately) confuse and conflate them.

The first is simply a boundary of the field of scientific study. If it is not natural, science doesn't study it. But a scientist may still be a believer in causes beyond those he/she studies professionally.

The second is a metaphysical stance that has no scientific basis and is not implied by science.

I agree with them on that. It does not mean that they confuse the use of natural causes in explaining natural phenomena with a materialistic view of nature.

I think that is exactly what they do. I think promoting this confusion is foundational to the ID movement.



They point is that the theory itself is materialist

That's where they make their error. The theory is scientific. It describes natural phenomena in terms of natural events and processes. That doesn't make it philosophically materialistic. There is no logic that connects descriptions of nature in natural terms with rejection of the supernatural.


and that it attributes to natural causes things they cannot do,things which cannot be shown to have happened.

I have never seen any basis for the belief that the processes involved in evolution cannot produce evolution. That idea seems to be an unsupported meme.

The belief in direct supernatural intervention does not divorce God from natural process.

No one is claiming that.



But since God is supernatural and present everywhere to nature,his creative action is indeed direct and supernatural. On this point,theistic evolutionists are the ones who separate God from natural process. If you really believe that God works through natural processes,then be specific about it. Acknowledge that God creates species or populations through immediate,individual acts of creation,whether from dead matter or living matter or parents.

As long as that doesn't involve denying the evidence that species evolve.


If you shy away from attributing specific acts of creation to God,then you don't believe that he creates things in the way that he actually does. The direct creation of species is not a miracle,in the proper sense of the word. It does not have to do with suspension of the laws of nature,which are themselves God-given.

Obviously that is not the typical stance of an anti-evolutionist. You are presenting something that doesn't appear to be much different from my own position.

Since we are not talking about a miracle "in the proper sense of the word" but about a creation that uses/harmonizes with natural phenomena, I am not sure we have seriously different opinions from each other.

I don't understand why you think this view is inconsistent with evolution, other than on the basis that you think evolution is materialistic.



There is nothing mechanistic about the belief in direct creation. It was the mechanistic thinkers of the 17th and 18th century that denied the miraculous and supernatural and sought to explain all natural phenomena in a mechanistic fashion.

Granted. I think that was a philosophical error.

I think half the reason anti-evolutionism still exists in the church today is that Christians of the Enlightenment period adopted the concept of nature as a great machine. So, if and when God interacted with the machine, it could only be in terms of intervening in and disrupting the processes of nature.

This still seems to be the standard view of most anti-evolution creationists.

Of course, this view was the standard scientific model as well. Indeed one can say the very existence of modern science was founded on the mechanistic concept of nature.

Today, even some scientists are saying we need to conceive nature more organically. We may have reached the limits of mechanistic explanations.

That doesn't mean that what was discovered using this model is wrong, but this model may not be sufficient to support scientific endeavour in the future.

To say that natural causes are activated by God in an ongoing,organic way is a mechanistic way of thinking,unless you mean that God himself creates and moves natural causes. But God did not make natural elements to move and create independently of his power. Natural causes have various degrees of free movement,but they are not capable of organizing themselves into organisms without the power of God's spirit.


Granted. I couldn't have said it better myself. I am so glad you included the idea that natural causes have various degrees of free movement. Long ago, I heard a Christian biochemist discuss chance and providence. One concept that was new to me at the time is that what, from a human point of view, we call chance, is actually providential and provides some of that freedom to the non-human creation which in humans is provided by free will.

Much later I discovered that a number of evolutionary creationists have taken up the same idea in various ways. John Polkinghorne points to quantum events as conveying the same idea.

And here is an excerpt from Loren Haarsma, a Christian biologist who, together with his wife, Deborah wrote a book entitled Origins. This is taken from his essay in Perspectives on an Evolving Creation, ed. Keith Miller.


"The Bible proclaims that God is equally sovereign over all events, ordinary or extraordinary, natural or supernatural. ... If something happens “naturally,” God is still in charge. ... It is incorrect to say that natural laws “govern.” God governs. ... The Bible teaches that God can precisely select the outcome of events that appear random to us. It is also possible that God gives his creation some freedom, through random processes, to explore the wide range of potentials he has given it. Either way, randomness within natural processes is not the absence of God. Rather, it is another vehicle for God's creativity and governance."


Emphasis added.


What do you mean by organic?

I am going to have to work on that. Basically, I mean that nature behaves more as an organism than as a machine.


The organic view of nature is mechanistic in science,and it is falsely spiritualist in evolutionary theology.

I am not sure what you mean by that. I doubt there is a single "organic" view. Perhaps you are referring to a specific philosophy of nature?


I was not referring to philosophy,but to the way nature is viewed and explained in science.

Yes, I was glad to see that. We have too much conflating of science and philosophy, aided and abetted, of course, by materialists--and, unwittingly, by some of their opponents in the creationist and ID circles. But it is not easy to overcome three centuries of habitual thinking.


Science already has a commitment to materialism. All natural phenomena are explained as if only natural causes exist. That can be just as false as saying outright that only natural causes exist.

Now you are expressing the same confusion. Science does not have a commitment to materialism. It has a commitment to discovering and explaining material processes in nature. Yes, it only explains natural causes, but it is a distortion to confuse that with the assertion that only natural causes exist.

The falsehood (sometimes enunciated by some scientists who ought to know better, and sometimes by their theological opponents) is in promoting this confusion by conflating what science does (explain the natural causes of natural phenomena) with a commitment to a philosophical position, namely that truth and knowledge are limited to what is known scientifically and consequently only natural causes exist. Allied to this is the Deist/mechanist view of nature/natural as signifying the absence or at least inaction of God.

Science affirms that all natural phenomena can and must be explained with natural causes alone.

That is incorrect. There are certainly some scientists who support that view, but it is a matter of their personal philosophy, not a foundational principle of science.

What you may be alluding to is the commitment of science to attempt a natural explanation of all natural phenomena. But that attempt does not presume that science will always be successful in this quest. (And again, it should be understood that a "natural" explanation is not ipso facto a godless explanation.)



Christians are not obliged to believe everything that natural science claims about natural processes,and they are certainly not obliged to believe in the theory of evolution,since it cannot be shown to be true.

Christians are obliged to believe the truth since all truth is God's truth. And evolution has been shown to be true on the basis of multiple lines of evidence and its predictive power.

It is simply preposterous to say something cannot be shown to be true, when it already has been shown to be true (at least insofar as science can show anything to be true--which is "the most probable explanation based on currently available evidence".)
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
I am going to have to work on that. Basically, I mean that nature behaves more as an organism than as a machine.

That is very interesting. That sounds somewhat like something I wrote a while ago, about God the Designer being not as good a metaphor for creation as God the Father.

It also reminds me of doing physics by least action principles, where you specify (some aspects of) the initial point and the final point, and then find the most favored trajectory between those points.
 
Upvote 0
A

Anthony Puccetti

Guest
I am going to have to work on that. Basically, I mean that nature behaves more as an organism than as a machine.

"Organic" means "of,related to,arising or derived from organisms".
All of living nature exists as organisms so that which is alive does behave organically.

I am not sure what you mean by that. I doubt there is a single "organic" view. Perhaps you are referring to a specific philosophy of nature?

I am referring to the fact that scientists explain natural causation in a mechanistic manner and call natural causes "mechanisms",and that theologians who believe in the theory of evolution tend to regard life as emerging from matter,or the soul from the forces of living matter.

Yes, I was glad to see that. We have too much conflating of science and philosophy, aided and abetted, of course, by materialists--and, unwittingly, by some of their opponents in the creationist and ID circles. But it is not easy to overcome three centuries of habitual thinking.

I think that most creationists are aware of the difference between naturalistic philosophy and methodological naturalism in science. But it is moot point because naturalism itself is the same view - only nature exists - whether in philosophy or science. The view that only nature exists does not,by itself, amount to a philosophy. But in science it does lead to a false portrayal of how nature works,in regard to life,order and the origins of things.

Now you are expressing the same confusion. Science does not have a commitment to materialism. It has a commitment to discovering and explaining material processes in nature. Yes, it only explains natural causes, but it is a distortion to confuse that with the assertion that only natural causes exist.

Science does have a commitment to materialism. Not as a philosophy,but as a view of nature and a way of explaining all natural phenomena. And that is just as bad as philosophical materialism.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
What is a "Christian Darwinist"? Given your definition of "Darwinism", I doubt there can be any such thing.

If you mean "theistic evolutionist" aka "evolutionary creationist" none that I know of would say "there is no evidence in that" of the work of God. They might well agree that there is no evidence of God using methods undecipherable to science to create life. Is that what you mean by "supernatural"?

A Darwinian evolutionist believes that creation wasn't a miracle but the result of natural law, we have talked about this and Darwin said so himself. Obviously, a Darwinian Christian doesn't believe this contradicts the supernatural character of Christian life and faith.

Darwin was for all intents and purposes, an agnostic. He did say that he didn't think that his theory should effect your religious beliefs and he was probably right about that.

Oh BTW, I have been wanting to ask you something. Do you believe in the immortality of the soul?

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

artybloke

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2004
5,222
456
66
North of England
✟8,017.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Politics
UK-Labour
and that theologians who believe in the theory of evolution tend to regard life as emerging from matter,or the soul from the forces of living matter.

They do? Which ones in particular? Could you name some?

I mean, life does kind of arise from matter through the process of birth, doesn't it?

Science really can't deal with 'soul' as it has no means of measuring it; but in and of itself, qua science, it doesn't make a decision for or against. But science isn't theology, and I suspect that most theologians have a concept of soul as something spiritual rather than physical.

If you can show me where they think it all arises from matter I'd love to see your evidence...
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
They do? Which ones in particular? Could you name some?

Nonreductive physicalism fits the bill: mental states (what materialists think we refer to as "the soul") are [wholly] caused by physical states, but are not reducible to them. Nancey Murphy is a prominent advocate of this view.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
"Organic" means "of,related to,arising or derived from organisms".
All of living nature exists as organisms so that which is alive does behave organically.

True, but I understand the concept to refer to all nature, not just living nature. Something on the order of the Gaia hypothesis which sees the planet as a whole as in some sense an organism.

To me a key difference here is not the science per se, but what the models imply in terms of God's relationship to nature. A machine, once up and running, only needs tending to for maintenance and repair. A perfect machine doesn't even need that, so a machine-model of the universe dispenses with God except to make the machine in the first place.

An organism requires love and attention even when it is not in need of "fixing". There is an interaction between garden and gardener, between parent and child, that is not part of the relationship between designer and machine.



I am referring to the fact that scientists explain natural causation in a mechanistic manner and call natural causes "mechanisms",and that theologians who believe in the theory of evolution tend to regard life as emerging from matter,or the soul from the forces of living matter.

Yes, "mechanisms" is part of the ingrained vocabulary of the universe=machine model. I don't like it either and generally prefer "process".

Still, the natural causes are what they are whatever they are called, and they are material in nature. Physical life does emerge from matter, even in the biblical account. And science has nothing to say about the soul one way or another. So there is no scientific theory suggesting that the soul arose from the forces of living matter.


Of course, if one subscribes to a materialist philosophy, one can suggest no other origin of the soul, but that is a matter of belief not science, as there is nothing to support it scientifically.



I think that most creationists are aware of the difference between naturalistic philosophy and methodological naturalism in science.

I see very little evidence of that. They are constantly conflated, and in some cases, it seems to me, deliberately so.






But it is moot point because naturalism itself is the same view - only nature exists - whether in philosophy or science. The view that only nature exists does not,by itself, amount to a philosophy.

Yes it does. Or at least it is foundational to materialism and atheism.

Science nowhere affirms that only material nature exists. Science is quite compatible with the biblical declaration that nature is God's creation and testifies to God's glory.






But in science it does lead to a false portrayal of how nature works,in regard to life,order and the origins of things.

Does it? What current example can you give of a scientific error in describing how nature works?


Science does have a commitment to materialism.


No, it does not. Science has a commitment to studying the workings of nature insofar as they can be explained by natural (i.e. empirical) causes.


That is not a commitment to materialism.

It just means science does not explore non-material causes.

It does not mean science denies the existence of non-material causes.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
A Darwinian evolutionist believes that creation wasn't a miracle but the result of natural law, we have talked about this and Darwin said so himself. Obviously, a Darwinian Christian doesn't believe this contradicts the supernatural character of Christian life and faith.

What does "creation" mean to a creationist?

Does a miraculous creation mean creation happens instantaneously?

I ask this in all seriousness, because I am really interested in figuring out why "creation" means something very different to you and to me.

To me, what occurs through natural law is just as much a creation as what occurs miraculously.




Oh BTW, I have been wanting to ask you something. Do you believe in the immortality of the soul?

You did ask me on another thread. I will give you the same answer.


No, I do not. I am a Christian, not a Platonist, and I believe what the New Testament actually teaches: the resurrection of the body. I don't believe there is any soul without a body.

I certainly believe that when our bodies put on immortality our souls will do so also for the soul of an immortal body must also be immortal. But by the same logic, the soul of a mortal body is itself mortal. 1 Corinthians 15:35-58
 
Upvote 0

Greg1234

In the beginning was El
May 14, 2010
3,745
38
✟19,292.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Science really can't deal with 'soul' as it has no means of measuring it; but in and of itself, qua science,

So still putting religion under your feet hmmmm? Who said that physical science ever had the means or will ever have the means to study the soul? Theology and metaphysics are there for a reason just so ya kno

Physical science takes a stance against religion. But still it remains "no one comes to the father except through a spectro-kaleidoscopic range and finder." Sorry that should have been "No one comes through the Father except through me" (me being the Christ that permeates the earth and all men).
 
Upvote 0
A

Anthony Puccetti

Guest
True, but I understand the concept to refer to all nature,not just living nature. Something on the order of the Gaia hypothesis which sees the planet as a whole as in some sense an organism.

The Gaia hypothesis is a naturalistic view of nature,which portrays nature as self-sufficient,and developing life from its own forces. It overlooks the fact that nature as a whole is not alive and that life in nature is itselfsupernatural,not a natural force or energy.

To me a key difference here is not the science per se, but what the models imply in terms of God's relationship to nature. A machine, once up and running, only needs tending to for maintenance and repair. A perfect machine doesn't even need that, so a machine-model of the universe dispenses with God except to make the machine in the first place.

If we take scientific models as our point of departure for interpreting God's relationship with nature,we are left with a remote,detached God who made nature self-sufficient,able to sustain its order and create life - just like the pagan deity Gaia,a personification of the earth.

Yes, "mechanisms" is part of the ingrained vocabulary of the universe=machine model. I don't like it either and generally prefer "process".

The word process is not specific,and so scientists reduce natural processes to specific causes and effects that they call mechanisms.

Still, the natural causes are what they are whatever they are called, and they are material in nature. Physical life does emerge from matter, even in the biblical account. And science has nothing to say about the soul one way or another. So there is no scientific theory suggesting that the soul arose from the forces of living matter.

The writers of the Bible took it as a given that God is the giver of life. They did not believe that nature produced life by its own power.

I know that science has nothing to say about the soul - it excludes the supernatural from consideration. But for that reason,it falsely views life as only a natural phenomenon produced by natural processes. And so nature is attributed with power it does not have. When natural phenomena are misinterpreted,so are natural causes.

Of course, if one subscribes to a materialist philosophy, one can suggest no other origin of the soul, but that is a matter of belief not science, as there is nothing to support it scientifically.

Belief and science are not mutually exclusive. Science has its own beliefs,beginning with the assumption that natural causes are adequate to explain all phenomena. People who have a materialist view do not even believe in the soul.

I see very little evidence of that. They are constantly conflated, and in some cases, it seems to me, deliberately so.

The distinction between philosophical and methodological naturalism is a moot point,because they both have the same view of the natural world as being all there is. To explain all phenomena scientifically as if only nature exists is as false as believing that only nature exists. But it is more pernicious in that it pretends to be unbiased,and physical evidence is used to support naturalistic explanations.

Yes it does. Or at least it is foundational to materialism and atheism.

The opinion that only nature exists is not a philosophy,although it is foundational for a naturalistic philosophy.

Science nowhere affirms that only material nature exists. Science is quite compatible with the biblical declaration that nature is God's creation and testifies to God's glory.

Science has a policy of explaining all phenomena as if only nature exists,and that is a false view to begin with. It is not compatible with belief in the doctrine of creation,because there are certain aspects of nature which must be understood in light of the doctrine of creation,namely: life,order,and the coming into existence of things.

Does it? What current example can you give of a scientific error in describing how nature works?

In abiogenesis theory,the claim that chemical reaction of amino acids and proteins can produce living cells.

No, it does not. Science has a commitment to studying the workings of nature insofar as they can be explained by natural (i.e. empirical) causes.

That is not a commitment to materialism.

It just means science does not explore non-material causes.

It does not mean science denies the existence of non-material causes.

That is a commitment to methodological naturalism,whereby only natural causes are used explain phenomena,on the false assumption that they are adequate to explain all phenomena. The view that only nature exists does not cease to be naturalism when it is used in scientific explanations.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟39,809.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Science has a policy of explaining all phenomena as if only nature exists,and that is a false view to begin with. It is not compatible with belief in the doctrine of creation,because there are certain aspects of nature which must be understood in light of the doctrine of creation,namely: life,order,and the coming into existence of things.
If you look at the history of science, you find that isn't true. Science started off with creation ex nihilo of things in their present form. That, after all, is what Special Creation is: God created species in their present forms and they do not change.

It turns out that there are consequences to that theory. By "consequences" I mean things that ought to be there if the theory is true. Things we can observe. The problem is that we observe things contrary to the the theory: things that cannot be there if the theory is true. By deductive logic, that means the theory is wrong. And that is what science eventually concluded: the "doctrine of creation" was wrong. I suspect you will want to go into some of those things that showed the "doctrine of creation" to be wrong. We can do that. But right now understand that science showed the "doctrine of creation" to be wrong like it has shown other scientific theories to be wrong. By the same methodology.

Now, does that mean that God did not create? NO! It means the "doctrine of creation" is wrong. The "doctrine of creation" is misnamed, because it is not a doctrine at all. It is a scientific theory about how God created. As a scientific theory, we can test it like any other scientific theory, did test it, and showed it was wrong.

BUT, God can still create. He simply creates by another how. Basically, God created by the processes we discover thru science.

In abiogenesis theory,the claim that chemical reaction of amino acids and proteins can produce living cells.
That's one theory within abiogenesis. It's also a theory that has been demonstrated. Why do you say it is in error? You can do the same in your kitchen or backyard and provide your own experimental support for the theory. However, all that means for Christians is that God creates (created) living cells by chemistry instead of "poofing" them into existence.

That is a commitment to methodological naturalism,whereby only natural causes are used explain phenomena,on the false assumption that they are adequate to explain all phenomena.
That isn't what MN is. MN is a limitation of science, not a "committment". MN grows out of how we do experiments. As it happens, all we can test for is the material component of a cause because that is all we can "control" for. When we do experiments, we have an experimental where the thing/cause is present, and then a "control" where the thing/cause is absent. Then we compare the two and if the result doesn't happen without the control but does so in the experimental, then the thing/cause is established. Think about an experiment to discover the causes/things necessary to combust hydrogen and oxygen to get water. You will find that you need hydrogen gas, oxygen gas, and a spark/flame. When any of those are absent (control), there is no water formed.

The problem then comes with the supernatural. Is that needed? How do I control for that? I have 2 chambers with oxygen, hydrogen, and a spark. Which chamber do I say "I know God is in this one"? and which one do I say "I know God is not in that one"? I can't. So I can't test for the supernatural. That is methodological naturalism.

The view that only nature exists does not cease to be naturalism when it is used in scientific explanations.
But the view that "only nature exists" is not in scientific explanations. That is a belief added onto the scientific explanations and is not justified by the scientific explanation.

What you are missing is that creation ex nihilo in present form is a material method. We don't know the mechanism, but it is still a material method we can test for. Was the universe made in its present form 6,000 years ago? No. Why not? First, because we see light from objects more than 6,000 light years distant, and therefore more than 6,000 years in the past. Second, when we look at objects in the distant past, we see that the universe was very different then than it is now. So the universe has changed over time.

The same applies with miraculous creation of the first cell or the first H. sapiens. Such a method leaves consequences we can study today. When we look for those consequences, we find consequences that actually contradict the theory. Therefore the theory cannot be true.

Bottom line, the problem isn't with science. The problem is that God did not create according to the "doctrine of creation". Get used to it.
 
Upvote 0

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟39,809.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
If we take scientific models as our point of departure for interpreting God's relationship with nature,we are left with a remote,detached God who made nature self-sufficient,able to sustain its order and create life - just like the pagan deity Gaia,a personification of the earth.
Christian theologians strongly disagree with you there. Here are just a few examples:

§8. Evolution. XVI. Later Theology. Vol. 17. Later National Literature, Part II. The Cambridge History of English and American Literature: An Encyclopedia in Eighteen Volumes. 1907–21
"Evolution implies a movement perfectly coherent in every portion of it. It is one therefore which can be traced in all its parts by the mind—one in which we, as intelligent agents, are partakers, first, as diligently inquiring into it; second, as concurrently active under it, and third, as in no inconsiderable degree modifying its results.…The secret of evolution lies here—We always lie under the creative hand at the centre of creative forces.… We are constantly speaking of the eternal and immutable character of truth.… These adjectives are hardly applicable. The universe does not tarry in its nest. It is ever becoming another and superior product.… We must accept the truth as giving us directions of thought, axes of growth, and no final product whatever." Reverend John Bascom
“Darwin is conquering everywhere, and rushing in like a flood, by the mere force of truth and fact. The one or two who hold out [against Darwin] are forced to try all sorts of subterfuges as to fact, or else by invoking the odium theologicum…” In the same letter Kingsley says: “the state of the scientific mind is most curious…They find that now they have got rid of an interfering God -- a master -- magician, as I call it -- they have to choose between the absolute empire of accident, and a living, eminent, ever-working God.” Charles Kingsley http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sts/cain/texts/osborn.pdf

"The scientific evidence in favour of evolution, as a theory is infinitely more Christian than the theory of 'special creation'. For it implies the immanence of God in nature, and the omnipresence of His creative power. Those who oppose the doctrine of evolution in defence of a 'continued intervention' of God, seem to have failed to notice that a theory of occasional intervention implies as its correlative a theory of ordinary absence." AL Moore, Science and Faith, 1889, pg 184.
"The one absolutely impossible conception of God, in the present day, is that which represents him as an occasional visitor. Science has pushed the deist's God further and further away, and at the moment when it seemed as if He would be thrust out all together, Darwinism appeared, and, under the disguise of a foe, did the work of a friend. ... Either God is everywhere present in nature, or He is nowhere." AL Moore, Lex Mundi, 12th edition, 1891, pg 73.

"Creation is continuous --it is a creatio continua. The ongoing cosmic processes of evolution are God himself being creator in his own universe. If I had to represent on a blackboard the relation of God and the world, including man, I would not simply draw three spheres labelled respectively 'nature', 'man', and 'God' and draw arrows between them to represent their interrelation. Rather, I would denote an area representing nature and place that entirely within another area representing God, ... When I came to depict man, I would have to place him with his feet firmly in nature but with his sef-consciousness (perhaps represented by his brain?) protruding beyond the boundary of nature and into the area depicting God." A Peacocke, Biological evolution and Christian Theology in Darwinism and Divinity, 1985, pg 124.

Here's a short piece written by the Anglican Bishop of Oxfr (who I assume is a Christian) about evolution and Christianity:
http://www.oxford.anglican.org/docs...522743334.shtml
It includes the statements:
"...the theory of evolution, far from undermining faith, deepens it._ This was quickly seen by Frederick Temple, later Archbishop of Canterbury, who said that God doesn't just make the world, he does something even more wonderful, he makes the world makee itself._ God has given creation a real independence and the miraculous fact is that working in relation to this independent life God has, as it were, woven creation from the bottom upwards: with matter giving rise to life and life giving rise to conscious reflective existence in the likes of you and me._ The fact that the universe probably began about 12 billion years ago with life beginning to evolve about 3 billion years ago simply underlines the extraordinary detailed, persistent, patience of the divine creator spirit."
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
The Gaia hypothesis is a naturalistic view of nature,which portrays nature as self-sufficient,and developing life from its own forces. It overlooks the fact that nature as a whole is not alive and that life in nature is itselfsupernatural,not a natural force or energy.


Sorry to be so long away, but better late than never.

Why not depict nature as self-sufficient? Why would God make nature not self-sufficient? Or as one scientist has termed it "fully gifted" to do whatever God has purposed it to do? Why label nature as a whole as "not alive"? Before the Enlightenment-based mechanistic view of the universe took hold, people did think of nature as in some sense alive. Properties of life were attributed to mountains, rivers and many other things that we in our modern hubris call "superstitious".

Scientifically, there is no hard and fast dividing line between living and non-living matter. Is there a theological basis for this division? Not that I know of.

In any case, I would think a more organic view of the universe (which was universally held by Christians for the first 1 1/2 millennia of Christian history) was more friendly to theism, not less friendly.



If we take scientific models as our point of departure for interpreting God's relationship with nature,we are left with a remote,detached God who made nature self-sufficient,able to sustain its order and create life - just like the pagan deity Gaia,a personification of the earth.

And that is exactly why we should not base theological interpretations directly on scientific models. Science is not equipped to teach theology. The model of the universe as machine was temporarily helpful for exploring the nature of the universe, but giving it theological status led to Deism--God as the absentee clockmaker who finished his work and walked away from it. Much of the controversy over evolution stems from the fact that even believers accepted Deism as the only non-atheist alternative theology consistent with science. That set a theology of science back a century and only now are scientists and theologians working out the basis of truly Christian understanding of evolution. (I don't mean by this some different theory of evolution, but a way of understanding evolution within the framework of the Christian teaching of God as creator.)



The word process is not specific,and so scientists reduce natural processes to specific causes and effects that they call mechanisms.

I don't think "mechanism" is any more specific than "process". But since even from a scientific view the universe is looking less and less like a dead machine (though it contains some marvellous "machinery" some of it very much alive) it is probably time to break old habits and build a new vocabulary to describe more up-to-date views of nature.




The writers of the Bible took it as a given that God is the giver of life. They did not believe that nature produced life by its own power.

And there is nothing in science that disagrees with that. The power in nature that engenders life is God-given, like the power by which God inspired the writers of scripture. It is filled through and through with the life-giving breath of God.

The point is that science is limited to describing the physical process which can be empirically tested and cannot provide evidence for the theological view I just stated.

I know that science has nothing to say about the soul - it excludes the supernatural from consideration.

You seem to think that science chooses to exclude supernatural explanations as a point of belief in their non-existence. But show how science could include a supernatural explanation and still be science. As lucaspa says, you are mistaking a limitation for a commitment. Science is limited by its own tools and methods of testing to exploring the natural. It is not committed to the view that the natural is a sufficient explanation of its own existence.

For a Christian who believes God created all the natural world and works in it by both natural and supernatural means, science is the appropriate tool for learning to understand what God is doing when working in the world by natural means. That does not imply any rejection whatsoever of supernatural reality, events or modes of action. It just means we need something other than science to tell us about these.



But for that reason,it falsely views life as only a natural phenomenon produced by natural processes. And so nature is attributed with power it does not have. When natural phenomena are misinterpreted,so are natural causes.

No. Science is a body of knowledge and a method of ascertaining that knowledge. It is not a person to have a view (true or false) of anything. Do some scientists hold that false view of life? Sure. Do all scientists hold that false view of life? Clearly not.

This view is not scientific. It is an opinion about the nature of life. It is not integral to science and this is the error many anti-evolutionists make: attributing to science (especially evolution) the worldviews of some scientists. Not that scientists don't bear their own share of blame for confounding scientific observations with philosophical views themselves.

But this is where the Christian student of science has to be alert to where the biases of some scientists get mixed in with their actual scientific work and offer a better theological view of the results of scientific investigation.

Christians, too, bear some blame. First, for not really learning science before rejecting some conclusions. But more so for accepting a change in the meaning of "natural" from its original sense. We have come to view the term "natural" as antithetical to God, as excluding God. Nothing could be further from the original intent of that meaning. Even into the 19th century, nature was seen to be the province of divine activity. "natural" mean what was uncontaminated by human activity, not what excluded God's activity. The opposite of "natural" was "artificial" i.e. what was made with human skill and technology.

That is a meaning we ought to revive. Instead of viewing natural explanations as a fence around God, we should view them, as our ancestors did, as descriptions of how God acts in this world on a day-to-day basis. And in terms of natural events, we don't need to draw a distinction between life and not life. That would be limiting God to acting only with what is living and excluding God from the rest of the material world. As God is Spirit, God exists in and through all physical being, however we classify it. God is as active in an molecule of salt floating in the ocean as in one circulating in my bloodstream. And it is by the power of God that the molecule of salt interacts with other molecules. Nothing natural needs to be understood as "naturalistic", as excluding God.



Belief and science are not mutually exclusive. Science has its own beliefs,beginning with the assumption that natural causes are adequate to explain all phenomena. People who have a materialist view do not even believe in the soul.

That is not an assumption of science. That is a "naturalistic assumption", an assumption of people who have a materialist view. And, I grant, such people will try to tell you that this view is "scientific"; but it is not. That is the atheist lie which, as Christians, we must reject. As long as we accept that this is an assumption of science itself, we put ourselves in the needless and tragic position of rejecting science instead of rejecting a false view of science.



The distinction between philosophical and methodological naturalism is a moot point,because they both have the same view of the natural world as being all there is.


On the contrary, it is very important, and the difference is precisely that while philosophical naturalism holds to the view that the natural world is all that exists, methodological naturalism holds to no such view.

Methodological naturalism is a recognition of the limitation of science in dealing with reality; a recognition that whatever the extent of existence, scientific tools and methods are only effective in investigating what has material substance and can be tested on the basis of observing and manipulating what is perceptible to our senses.

To mistake that limitation for the whole is the error of philosophical naturalism. It is not an error of science.



The opinion that only nature exists is not a philosophy,although it is foundational for a naturalistic philosophy.

Well, it may not be a philosophy, but it is a philosophical (and not a scientific) opinion. As you say, it is a foundational axiom for any sort of philosophy that holds the natural material world to constitute the whole of real existence.

As I said some time ago, there are two distinct ideas that confusingly get referred to by the same or similar words such as "nature" "natural" "naturalistic" etc.

1. the fact that science (all science, not just evolution) is committed to understanding and describing natural causes and only natural causes

2. the philosophical position that all causes are natural.



Science has a policy of explaining all phenomena as if only nature exists,and that is a false view to begin with.

No, science has a policy of explaining as many phenomena as it can (which may or may not be all phenomena) within the limitations of its methodology. That methodology limits science to empirically-testable explanations.

Now, the idea that empirically-testable explanations are ipso facto exclusive of divine action is a philosophical view to which materialists are committed. It is not integral or necessary to science.

It is not part of scientific policy to say: because we can describe how the molecular structure of water leads to the formation of snowflakes in a hexagonal pattern, it means God has nothing to do with making snowflakes. That is what a materialist would say, but we don't need to accept that materialistic view as part of science or as a policy of science.

(Historically, consider Newton. His discovery of how a prism breaks light into separate colours and of the power of gravity gave us natural explanations of rainbows and planetary orbits. But he did not interpret this as a reason to become an atheist or adopt a materialistic view of the natural world. Rather, he thought of his discoveries as illuminating for us how God acts in nature.)


In abiogenesis theory,the claim that chemical reaction of amino acids and proteins can produce living cells.

And if they are right, so what? How does that make any more difference than learning that gravity is what keeps planetary bodies in their orbits? What does it do other than illuminate for us how God arranged for the chemicals of the earth's oceans to produce living beings and empowered them to do so? (Does not even Genesis say God commanded the earth to bring forth living beings? Why would abiogenesis not be seen as the process by which the earth obeyed that command?)



That is a commitment to methodological naturalism,whereby only natural causes are used explain phenomena,on the false assumption that they are adequate to explain all phenomena.


No, there is an inherent limitation in the methodology of science which prevents it from inferring other than natural causes. But why shouldn't natural causes be adequate to explaining all natural phenomena? Why would God make a natural world in which natural phenomena are not capable of being explained by natural causes? Surely we should only look for non-natural causes when the phenomena in question are not natural?

Is life not natural? Does agreeing that life is natural imply that it is not God-given?


Basically, we are getting back to semantics. What exactly do we mean by "nature"/"natural"/"naturalistic".

You said earlier that you distinguish between "natural" and "naturalistic". I would take my numbered point 2 above (the belief that the natural world constitutes the whole of reality and their is no deity or supernature beyond it) to be "naturalistic".

But much that you say about nature (especially the expression "nature alone") suggests that you yourself view nature as something that exists apart from and always outside of God, such that the only way nature and God can be present to each other is in the way an inventor can be present to a machine he or she made. It suggests that you yourself view a natural process as something that occurs on its own in the absence of God's attention. So if anything can be explained adequately in natural terms you see that explanation as excluding God--and therefore to be rejected.

What I am suggesting is a different (yet historically Christian) way of viewing nature and natural process so that this dichotomy is resolved without needing to reject the scientific observations and inferences.
 
Upvote 0