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Thou art Peter...

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Ratjaws

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Luchnia said:
Ephes. 1:22-23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, [23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. (the body is never the head)
Luchnia,

You are very accurate at quoting scripture but even a child before the age of reason can be taught to memorize and cite with integrity. The hard part is to interpret correctly what God's word says. What guarantee do you have that you or your pastor have the correct meaning of scripture? How do you know your denomination is right in it's understanding and the others who contend against your understanding are wrong? Oh! You tell me you have the Holy Spirit to guide you but so do they! Well, how then can we settle this serious dilemma? Let's just go to scripture and see:

15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Mt.18:15-20 RSV)

Interesting! We are exhorted to take our disagreements to a church that cannot be seen! How so? How can this be unless maybe that Church is visible? How about this verse:

14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. 15 Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. (Mt.5:14-15 RSV)

Seems to me the bible is telling us we are visible and God intends us to show ourselves by what we do. If this is true, which you know it is, then how can the Church, which one of the verses you cite even states, how can the Church not be visible? We ARE the body of Christ and I can see you and you can see me, right? So Christ's body is visible. Well, where is Christ? Is He visible to you now? Oh! You say that Jesus is in our hearts! Well I don't see Him in yours... do you see Jesus in my heart? While I believe Jesus is in every Christian's heart it does not help the problem of solving our disagreements by taking them to Christ's Church. So evidently we who are the body of Christ are plainly visible but Jesus is not and rather His Holy Spirit is in our heart guiding us all. I agree 100%! Still, this visible body with all it's members is only a corpse without a visible head... therefore St. Peter and his successors who all have been visible MUST be the visible head. Pope John Paul II is visible to us today and we can take our disagreements to him, this fallible man who has the SAME Holy Spirit in him as we do, and get answers. We know if Christ can guide us to truth then surely He can guide a fallible old man to truth too... especially if Christ purposefully established an office within His Church to do so.

And likewise the analogy carries out in this temporal world we live in. Since our soul MUST touch every part of our body or that member could not have life (cut your finger off and see if it continues to work for you!) and the head is not any less a member touched by that soul than that attached finger... then Christ's Holy Spirit MUST touch every member of His body including the head! The holy Father does have a special gift as verse 18 above implies. He is able to discern truth concerning "faith and morals" so we don't have to fight between each other and beat ourselves on the head with the bible. And every scripture verse you pointed out only validates this perspective because the invisible Holy Spirit (Christ's!) animates the visible head as well as other visible members like us. Christ is the head of His Church... the INVISIBLE head, while Pope John Paul II is the VISIBLE head and we are the VISIBLE members!

No other theory rings true like this one as distasteful as it may seem to you... but maybe that is because you and your teachers are fallible and not granted the same charism (gift) as Christ's Vicar... do you think?

Sincerely, Tim (alias Ratjaws)

In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas!
In necessary things unity, in doubtful things liberty, in all things charity!
 
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Ratjaws

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Godzman said:
Christ is the cornerstone, the foundation is the confession of Jesus as the Son of the living God, the Christ.

God would not build his church on a fallible man.
Why not? God revealed Himself to fallible men... He trusted them to write your bible... why wouldn't He trust other fallible men to guard and teach that same book???

Sincerely, Tim (alias Ratjaws)
 
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SonWorshipper

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Matthew 16

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.



Revelation 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.


I am wondering if there is a connection here?


 
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Ratjaws

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Malaka said:
Hi there!
:wave:



Which early church father said Peter was the first pope?


~malaka~
Malaka, we don't need to go to the early Church fathers to prove the Petrine Promise. Take a close look at the book of Acts chapter 15 and you will see that once St. Peter spoke the arguments were all ended. That council described there was the first of the Church. Here we see our first pope feeding Christ's sheep by determining what is good doctrine (binding).

Sincerely, Tim (alias Ratjaws)
 
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Ratjaws

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Malaka said:
I do believe Christ answered that question for you...



"but do not follow their example".


From your statement, I may only assume that you don't actually believe that Christ brought a new gospel, but that we must still be living under the law?????


Now... back to the issue.... no .... the vicar has no authority to BE Christ to this world, and there is only one who is "holy", and it is God... the vicar is a man.. he is not God.


~malaka~
Malaka,
The term "vicar" simply means representative. Even we are representatives of Christ but not in the special way St. Peter was called to be. On the contrary, we all are to BE Christ to this world and the holy Father (St. Peter) is to BE this in an even more subtle and deep way. He and all priests stand "in persona Christi" or in the person of Christ. This is very biblical and has to do with a change in nature of the recepient of holy orders. Their soul is marked for eternity like ours is marked at baptism. They like us remain creatures but represent Christ in a special way. Do they have this power in and of themselves? NO way! They are given this nature change precisely because Christ wants them to participate with Him (as He wants for us in our own special way) in the process of salvation. Christ is the source, we are His instruments, the vessels He works through. There is nothing unbiblical about that and instead it is rather miraculous... something only God could accomplish by His power. St. Peter as a priest had the power to change bread and wine into Christ's own body and blood... by Christ's power... and for the distribution of grace. St. Peter also had the gift of discernment when it came to teaching on "faith and morals." Likewise for all his successors up to our holy Father today, John Paul II. Why does Christ want us to participate in our own salvation? I don't exactly know but why don't you ask him when you get to heaven! I could venture a guess that it's because Christ wants us to love Him and love requires a freely willed choice to cooperate with God (as well as faith). God want's His Church to act like a family and so salvation is not a strict judical or legal arrangement. It's all of us participating in Christ's salvific suffering and doing so with our own suffering (which St. Paul tells us we make up the lacking in Christ's own suffering). There is much more to this but suffice to say God gives each person a job and He specifically gave St. Peter (and his successors) the job of guarding "the good deposit" as well as the tools to do this with called "binding and loosing." In other words Christ gave St. Peter the "keys" to protect doctrine so it could be taught in all ages. The Church which is "the pillar and ground of truth" has one continuous teaching. This whole Protestant/Catholic debate is as simply and complex as that. God works through our strengths and weaknesses but more the latter because He can manifest Himself to a greater degree when contrasting His power to our weakness. If I am to fear fallible men who teach me then why not fear you or your pastor when trying to tell me what the bible means? On the other hand why should I fear the fallible men whom God picked (and their successors) to teach me if God has the power to create out of nothing, incarnate Himself, and then turn bread and wine into His real presence? No, I choose to take Christ at His word when He says "my flesh is good food... my blood is good drink... he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life within him!" Only God could accomplish something as fantastic as this and Christ choose to do it through MEN! Jesus Christ who is infallible chooses fallible men to do His will... to teach infallibly... to pass out grace through the sacraments... to govern the faithful... why is that so hard to believe? Where is this faith I hear Protestants preach about all the time? That faith which moves mountains... that faith which is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen!

Sincerely, Tim (alias Ratjaws)
 
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Luchnia

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Originally posted by Ratjaws: Interesting! We are exhorted to take our disagreements to a church that cannot be seen! How so? How can this be unless maybe that Church is visible?

Who implied The Church wasn't visible? Yes, we are visible. The body of Christ is visible here today. The only disagreemant is that I do not acknowledge your pope, Peter, or your catholic church as any more succession from Christ than I do Ronald McDonald of Mcdonald's fame. It would not matter to me if a pastor said it, a pope said it, one of the rc's priestly fathers, an angel, an animal speaking with man's voice, or anyone for that matter. If it is not Truth by the Spirit, it doesn't hold water, as the saying goes.

No one is taking your pope from you as your head until the apointed time, but for the body of Christ (as is in God's word), Jesus is the head and we know He did not leave Peter as successor. The freedom that we hold in Christ will not be bound by man made doctrines as is given by the catholics. It is our choice to believe what we wish as God has granted. You believe your pope Peter and others is your head or heads, but I believe Jesus is my head. Hey, if it works for you, awesome!

Don't you ever think that Jesus would have let you know something this important? And yet, Jesus kept this great truth that you hold from all the great men of God. He failed to let Ezekiel, Isaiah, John the baptist, John, Luke, Matthew, Mark, Stephen, Timothy, Phillip, etc. know this that you know. And yet Jesus failed to let Paul know of all men. What is truly ironic is that Paul was a "chosen vessel" to bear Jesus' name. Peter wasn't chosen for anything even close (could it be that Jesus knew Peter could not do it?).

Maybe it was better Peter wasn't chosen as knowing Peter's stubbornness and denial of Jesus, this would have probably led him to the pit. Another interesting point is that Jesus did not let the rest of His body know this great truth that the catholics hold. It would seem that this was too great a truth for the rest of His body to be able to understand and that we could not be guided by the Holy Spirit, but needed the catholic councils to guide and correct us in this matter.

The sadness of it all is that this doctrine or doctrines of papacy is not given by the Spirit nor does the Spirit bear witness of it, but was made by men for men. Don't you find it strange that this truth that you hold does not bear witness with the rest of the body?

Word up!
 
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Philip

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Luchnia said:
The sadness of it all is that this doctrine or doctrines of papacy is not given by the Spirit nor does the Spirit bear witness of it, but was made by men for men. Don't you find it strange that this truth that you hold does not bear witness with the rest of the body?

Is it that the Spirit does not bear witness to the rest of the body or that the rest of the body ignores the Spirit's witness?
 
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Serapha

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Ratjaws said:
Malaka,
The term "vicar" simply means representative. Even we are representatives of Christ but not in the special way St. Peter was called to be. On the contrary, we all are to BE Christ to this world and the holy Father (St. Peter) is to BE this in an even more subtle and deep way. He and all priests stand "in persona Christi" or in the person of Christ. This is very biblical and has to do with a change in nature of the recepient of holy orders.
Hi there!

wave.gif



Just a couple of comments.


could you please put an occasional "return" in your responses... it just makes it much easier to read..


and, oh yeah, what scripture tell me that I can be Christ?

Just curious...


~malaka~
[
 
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Luchnia

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Posted by Phillip: Is it that the Spirit does not bear witness to the rest of the body or that the rest of the body ignores the Spirit's witness?

>>>>No, it is as typed: The doctrine or doctrines of papacy is not given by the Spirit nor does the Spirit bear witness of it, but was made by men for men.

The Spirit would not withhold such an important truth from the body of Christ.

Word up!
 
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Philip

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Luchnia said:
The doctrine or doctrines of papacy is not given by the Spirit nor does the Spirit bear witness of it, but was made by men for men.

You have offered no evidence to support this view. There is plenty of it out there, but you have offered none.

The Spirit would not withhold such an important truth from the body of Christ.

My previous question remains valid: Is it the case that the Spirit has withheld this from the body, or is it the case that the rest of the body has ignored the Spirit's witness?
 
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SoliDeoGloria

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One of the main contentions that Protestants have with the Catholic Church is the interpretation of Matthew 16:18 where Jesus says, "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church..." Historical Protestantism has had a hard time accepting the Catholic view that Peter is the rock to which Jesus referred.



They have advanced two alternative interpretations: First, it has been said that Jesus is remarking about Peter's faith and/or confession, saying, in effect, that it is as solid as a rock.

Since the soteriology of the Protestant movement was based on _sola fide_ (faith alone), it seems fitting that Protestants see in Peter the prototype of that solitary faith.

Second, it is said that Jesus Himself is the rock, not Peter. Since they claim that the metaphor "rock" in the Bible is invariably used in reference to God, Protestants cannot see how a mere man can be designated as something that is exclusive to divinity.

To support these views, the more scholarly Protestant may even point to the interpretation of some of the Fathers of the Church. For example, it is true that in the writings of Augustine, at least two of the views of the rock can be found. Various other Church Fathers offer one or more of the three interpretations as well. So, we must be careful in accusing the Protestants of a novel interpretation of the rock that was not known until the 16th century.

Upon closer examination, however, we find that most of the Church Fathers agreed that Peter was the rock of Matthew 16:18. Even the few who failed to see Peter as the rock did not have any problem with Peter's primacy. Augustine, in whom we find at least two views, was unequivocal that the chair of Peter in Rome was the supreme authority for the Church. His famous statement, "Rome has spoken, the case is closed," has rung in the ears of Catholics for a millennium and a half. Further, one needs to understand the contexts in which Augustine was writing, as well as the theological license he gave himself to explain the deeper truths of the Faith. All in all, Augustine was a diehard supporter of the papacy.

Interesting developments in the exegesis of Matthew 16:18-19 have occurred in the Protestant world since the turn of this century. Many Protestant scholars have come to the conclusion that Peter is indeed the rock to which Jesus referred. Renowned Protestant theologians such as Oscar Cullman and Herman Ridderbos have written voluminous works works exegeting Matthew 16:18 in fine detail, showing that classical Protestant exegesis is full of false assumptions and shortcomings. One of the most salient errors pointed out by these sources is the Protestant claim that that the original Greek of Matthew 16:18 made a lexical distinction between Peter (Greek: petros) and rock (Greek: petra). Petros was understood to be a small stone or pebble, while petra was understood to be a huge, immovable rock, or rocky cliff. Conclusion: Peter could not be the rock to which Jesus referred, since it is obvious that a small stone is not a huge, immovable rock. In discovering more about Greek etymology, however, Protestant scholars learned that petros and petra are actually interchangable terms. Though desiring to complete the pun and convey assonance, the Gospel writer was simply limited by the fact that since Peter is a masculine name, it must be designated by a masculine Greek noun (i.e., petros), whereas petra is a feminine noun.

Greek, however, may not have been the original language of the Gospel of Matthew, since many Church Fathers (e.g. Irenaeus, Eusebius, Epiphanius and Jerome) indicate Matthew's Gospel originally was written in Hebrew/Aramaic. The Greek of Matthew's Gospel could then be a translation of the Hebrew. Also, it is known that Jesus spoke in a Hebrew dialect called Aramaic. This is very significant, since Aramaic did not have different words for "Peter" and "rock" as Greek does, but would have used the same word _kepha_ (transliterated as "Cephas" in John 1:42) where Jesus, speaking Aramaic, equates _kepha_ with the Greek _petros_). It is also interesting to note that "Simon" in Aramaic means "grain of sand." If _petros_ referred only to a pebble, as some Protestants claim, it would be pointless for Jesus to change his name from "grain of sand" merely to "pebble," since that would do little to portray the monumental change in Peter's stature that was meant to take place in John 1:42 and Matthew 16:18.

Even though Greek may not have been the original language in which Matthew penned his Gospel, it can be shown from the scriptural usage of Greek that _petra_ does not refer exclusively to a huge rock. It also can refer to a stone or small rock. For example, in Romans 9:33 and 1 Peter 2:8, the Greek word _lithos_ (a small stone), is coupled with _petra_ in the imagery of making a man stumble and fall. The verse in the Old Testament from which these verses are quoted is Isaiah 8:14: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble, and a rock that makes them fall." The image is of a man walking on his way and stumbling over a stone or small rock so that he falls to the ground. It is not the picture of a big boulder appearing in his way or coming down from the sky and crushing him under its weight. Paul actually refers to stumbling in Romans 9:32, and one cannot stumble and fall over a _petra_ if it is a huge, massive rock.

Hence, since both _petra_ and _petros_ can refer either to a small or large rock, perhaps Jesus was not so much concerned about size in calling Peter the rock, but with solidity.

This reasoning is supported by the parable in Matthew 7:24-27 concerning the man who built his house upon sand as opposed to the one who built his house on rock. On grains of sand, ("Simon"), the Church could not be supported. On a rock, ("Peter"), it was well-supported.

Because of these and other discoveries, it is becoming more and more difficult to find a Protestant scholar who has not capitulated to the Catholic understanding of the rock in Matthew 16:18.

Then why, you ask, have not these scholars not yet become Catholics? Some have, but among other things, what most of these Protestant scholars still have a problem with is whether Peter's office is to succeed him. To explore this question, we find more help from the Greek language.

Various nuances in exegeting Matthew 16:18-19 are being discovered all the time, and each of them support the Catholic interpretation of the verse. I have discovered a few of these myself that have convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Peter is the rock.

There are nuances to the Greek that are much more illustrative in identifying Peter as the rock that are not available in Hebrew/Aramaic. For example, the Greek _epi taute te petra_ ("upon this rock") uses the dative case demonstrative adjective, _taute_ (pronounced "tautee") with the dative article _te_ (pronounced "tee"). To show the intended force of its demonstrative quality, the Greek phrase can be translated as: "this same," "this very" or "even this." Hence, the wording of Matthew 16:18 could very well read: "You are Peter and upon _this same_ rock I will build my Church" or, "You are Peter and upon _this very_ rock I will build my Church."

That this Greek phrase can be used in such a manner, one need only turn to Protestant translations of the New Testament. For example, in the King James Bible, the same dative construction is translated, as "the same" or "this same," respectively, in 1 Corinthians 7:20 ("Let every man abide in _the same_ calling in which he was called") and 2 Corinthians 9:4 ("...we should not be ashamed in _this same_ confident boasting"). It is also translated as "even...this" in Mark 14:30 ("This day, _even in this_ night...thou shalt deny me thrice"). The New American Standard Bible translates this demonstrative adjective as "this very" in Luke 12:20 ("_This very_ night your soul is required of you.") It is translated the same way in the New International Version and The New English Bible. The Revised Standard Version and the New American Standard Bible translate the same dative construction as "this very" in Acts 27:23 ("For _this very_ night there stood by me an angel..."). There are other instances of such translations in Protestant Bibles, but these will suffice to make the point that it is very possible, in fact, more correct, to translate Matthew 16:18 much more emphatically than it is usually rendered. In addition, what may be just as important in this analysis is not what the Gospel writer said, but what he did not say. He did not say, "upon THE rock" or "upon A rock," which would have made the identity of the rock more ambiguous. The demonstrative force added by the inclusion of the Greek word "tautee" makes clear that the rock which Jesus mentioned is the _same_ or _very_ rock to which He had just referred, i.e., Peter.

R.C.H. Lenski, a renowned Lutheran commentator, suggests that Jesus could have said, "You are Peter, I will build my Church _on you_" if He meant to refer to Peter. Certainly this is plausible since there are many ways to say the same thing in human language.

But Lenski avoids the literary and historical genre in his suggestion. The apostles are in the vicinity of Caesarea Phillipi, which contained a massive rock structure. Jesus had already changed Simon's name to Peter, meaning rock (Jn 1:42). Jesus and Peter have an intense conversation in which they exchange titles (Mt 16:13-18).

Jesus give only Peter the keys of the kingdom (Mt 16:19). What more profound way could there be to set the stage for the declaration that Peter is the rock?

In fact, most Protestant scholars see such force in this genre that the only way they can neutralize it is to claim that this entire section of Matthew is not authentic (e.g. Rudolph Bultmann).

Ironically, in a letter congratulating Catholic theologian Hugo Rahner on his devastating critique of Hans Kung's book which questioned papal infallibility, Bultmann said, "How fortunate you must be to be able to appeal to the Pope; appeal to the Lutheran synods merely leads to greater disunity."

We might also add that the Latin Vulgate, written by Jerome in the fifth century, translates the aforementioned phrase as "_hanc petram_" wherein "hanc" can be understood in Latin as "this very." From Jerome's persepctive, this usage was especially significant since since he was an expert in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

For those Protestants who have come to the realization that Peter is the rock of Matthew 16:18, the next step is accepting that Peter's office is to succeed him (i.e., that Peter was the first pope to be followed by an unbroken succession of popes).

Logic would dictate that if Jesus was going to take the trouble to set up an office for Peter (i.e giving him the _keys_, which denote an office of power and authority) this position would naturally continue for the life of the Church.

Jesus did nothing without planning it out for the future. If not, what would be the sense in establishing such a high-ranking office if Jesus had no intention of seeing it last beyond Peter's death? It would be one of the most anti-clamactic events in the life of Jesus and the history of the Church, not to mention a complete shutdown of the Old Testament precedent of dynastic succession.

Imagine the framers of the U.S. Constitution creating the office of president and electing George Washington as its first official, all the while musing that the office would be destroyed after Washington's death! That would be an absurd proposition. Were the framers of the Constitution smarter than Jesus? Certainly not. They were emulating what had been passed down since the dawn of history--that a single individual takes the reins of power but hands them over to his successor upon his vacancy from the office. But this is a big subject requiring yet further analysis.
 
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Ratjaws

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Luchnia said:
The sadness of it all is that this doctrine or doctrines of papacy is not given by the Spirit nor does the Spirit bear witness of it, but was made by men for men. Don't you find it strange that this truth that you hold does not bear witness with the rest of the body?

Word up!
Luchnia,

The Protestant argument against the papacy implies the Church is not visible; not to mention many Fundamentalists who teach this explicitly. That is precisely one of the most serious problems with the many denominations; I mean that is their fluid teachings which are hard to pin down. I understand you won't go that far but nevertheless you give no reason for what you believe which seems to me a violation of St. Peter's command to give reason in season and out. You do worse when you insult all serious Christians by comparing St. Peter to Ronald McDonald. Can't you give serious thought to your beliefs? What you imply in your first paragraph, that you don't care who tells you this is a true teaching, is that it's just "ME and Jesus!" Christ forbid that you should realize your bible was written by fallible men! Someone needs to tell God that according to you He cannot work through human vessels such as Abraham, Moses or any of the prophets you mention. But alas, our argument is over "Truth" and "the Spirit" ...whether and who knows or hears them, isn't it?

I quote you: "The freedom that we hold in Christ will not be bound by man made doctrines as is given by the catholics. It is our choice to believe what we wish as God has granted. You believe your pope Peter and others is your head or heads, but I believe Jesus is my head. Hey, if it works for you, awesome!"

It seems what you've done here is relativize the whole thing which as any good Christian knows is not orthodox Christian teaching. Truth is very definite despite what our culture teaches and maybe your idea of truth is affected more by our high tech-pagan society than the bible you claim is your sole basis for knowing truth? And it seems to me if you are truly correct then you are bound by your Christian faith to help me from my error rather than tell me "No one is taking your pope from you as your head... It is our choice to believe what we wish..." as though God can contradict himself, holding some accountable for truth and others He lets off the hook!

The crux of what others and myself are saying in this thread on Peter's Primacy is that Jesus DID "...let you know something this important" in the very bible you claim your faith rests on, yet refuse to use to support your anti-papal claim. Matthew chapter sixteen, eighteen, Isaiah twenty-two, First Timothy chapter three... all point to this fact that St. Peter was given an office with "keys" implying power and authority to discern and make decisions for the whole body of Christ. St. Peter and his successors have the task to "feed my sheep" even though they are fallible men. The focal point is not their impeccible nature (their ability to sin) but rather the Holy Spirit's ability to work despite that fallen human frailty. You cite St. Paul as your example as if God is only able to work through him and not other fallen men like St. Peter or John Paul II. No, what is "truly ironic" is that St. Paul was a "chosen vessel" but NEVER given the "keys to the kingdom" or the power to "bind and loose" yet you continue to insist there was no difference or if there was St. Paul would be the obvious pope. If he was scripture does not mention it and therefore it must have been a power conferred by a human being who had that power AND after visible Christ's departure from this world. So we are back to where be began... does any human being have power given them by God? I say yes, it's obvious in scripture and history.

Again the point is we are all chosen by God but each for a unique task, time and place. There are similarities and there are differences in our witness but it is not an either/or proposition. The uniqueness of Peter's vocation has to do with the office he held as referred to in Isaiah 22:15-25 and understood by Jews of Christ's time. Not necessarily his sinfulness as you and other Protestants keep holding back in our faces. Was Moses or Abraham chosen because of their sinlessness? So you not only ignore scriptural proofs for this doctrine but historic evidence as well... as though God is not the same today and forever!

As for God failing to tell Ezekiel, Isaiah, John the Baptist and all the others you've mentioned, that St. Peter would be the visible head of His Church, I think you should reaccess how revelation has unfolded in time. St. Paul tells us "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son..." (Heb.1:1-2 RSV) Again "For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities..." (Heb.10:1 RSV) We are taught as Catholics that the old testament is filled with types and figures of what was to come in the new covenant. There were priests and high priests in that older covenant with certain powers to forgive sin, albeit they had to perform a sacrifice over and over again. It stands to reason the new covenant would have all that was there in the old with even greater powers which we see are now manifest in the apostolic priesthood. St. Peter had the power to forgive sin or in scriptural language "to bind and loose." (see Jn.20:19-23, Mt.16:17-20) St. Peter could not care for Christ's sheep if he had no certainty in what to teach the flock. I submit to you that Christ gives him that certainty for our own good. In fact if St. Peter had no power to discern truth when it comes to "faith and morals" then how is it you have your biblical canon? I say with Christ's Church and scripture that it is by the very fact of the Church's power to declare these books trustworthy and not others that we have our bibles. I'd also ask why you accept a truncated bible with books missing that even Christ read from in the form of the Septuigent? Members of the Church wrote the scripture you now hold and the Church worked with many other books not canon today, which were formally dropped when Pope Damasus I gave us our first complete list of the books acceptable. So I say it is you who are protesting against the Church who do not recognize the Spirit of Truth when it comes to papal doctrine. You who say Jesus did not reveal this truth yet ignore the texts we present as proof for our more than two-thousand year old belief. Consistent belief seen in the early Church Father's writings! But of course to you they too are just "mere men" like your pastor or a man off the street. So according to you, the papacy belongs to each and every Christian which is absurd since this very idea leaves God out.

Besides my scriptural and historic evidence you also ignore my analogy for what? To sidestep the issue and make fun of what we believe. Yet, the analogy holds true as far it can in relation to reality which is our standard for truth (truth is conformity of the mind to reality). When I point to your body it includes your head as PART of your body and not something other than YOUR body. This is how any honest person takes the reality of the human person. Now that your body lives is due to the fact that a soul, YOUR soul animates it. And this soul as I've said before extends throughout your whole body and there is not a place on or in your body where you can point which your soul is not present. If your soul is absent from any part of your body it ceases to be "your body" in the strict sense. It's life source is cut off! This is why I talked about a cut-off finger. I could just as well have said an arm or leg or any other part of your body which is not a vital organ to make the point that where your soul is your body must be in order for it to have life. If for one reason or another your heart is cut out or your head cut-off from your body these organs will not only cease to be "yours" but your whole body will cease to live! Neither you nor I can continue to live without our head and so it is with the body of Christ and it's head. We are visible as are all the members of Christ's body and this includes the head (Picture a body without a head and you will find yourself in a morgue!) Christ's Holy Spirit is present to this whole body or that member to which it is not present CEASES to be present to the body (sin causes this kind of separation at the spiritual level as leporcy does at the natural level). Likewise if Christ's mystical and visible head is cut off from His body we would cease to exist as the body of Christ... an extremely impossible proposition since Christ's Church is here until the end of the age! Christ's animating Spirit is present to us AND the head as surely as our soul is present to our bodily members and our head. If you reject this principle then you also must reject St. Paul's analogy with the human body since he did use it in scripture. It must conform to reality or Christ would be guilty of using what is not real and therefore false to teach us (does that sound like God's character; deceptive?). Thus the Church holds firm to reality while Her separated members, that one in ninety-nine stray sheep, wander in doctrinal confusion with the end result of widespread sectarian division and a poorer witness to the world than Christ wills. Case closed!

Sincerely, Tim (alias Ratjaws)

"In Him we live and move and have our being!" St. Paul the philosopher (Act.17:28)
 
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Ratjaws

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Br. Max said:
Q: if Christ we refering to PETER as the rock on which he would build this church, why would he say "upon this rock?" "this" is the wrong pronoun for a reference to a man. Or maybe Christ was ignorant of the rule of grammar?? ;)
Br. Max,
I'm afraid I don't have much background in the study of linguistics, certainly not Greek, Aramiac or Hebrew, but I suspect grammar is different moving from our language to Christ's. Still I'd consider your argument irrelevant since Christ was simply making a comparison. I think SoliDeoGloria did a good job of making this point. Christ referred to a rock because He wanted to convey the solidity He would provide for St. Peter's office since he was to be chiefly in charge of teaching (thus guarding) the "good deposit" as it is called in the book of Timothy. I'm afraid the deck is stacked against all those who claim some 2000 years later that the papal office is not a reality because the Church has carried this idea from a seed until it was formally declared and better understood. It's even been historically preserved as the short tract below manifests:

(3) PAPAL PRIMACY IN CATACOMB SYMBOLISM

Petrine portraits. "The mark which most frequently distinguishes St. Peter in the earliest representations is that our Lord is depicted in the act of handing to him a roll or a volume, an act which is sometimes explained by the accompanying inscription, Dominus legem dat. Of this class of representation a good many instances have come down to us. The most famous is perhaps the well-known sarcophagus which came originally from the Vatican Cemetery and is now in the Museum of Christian antiquities at the Lateran. On this sarcophagus Christ is shown already ascended into heaven, but handing over to St. Peter as His visible representative upon earth the volume of the law of the New Dispensation. There is a painting of the same subject in the Catacomb of St. Priscilla, and on a gilded glass now in the Vatican Museum the volume actually bears the title, Lex Domini. Most important of all this class, perhaps, is the mosaic in Santa Constanze on the Via Salaria, where the whole parallel is carefully worked out between the giving of the law of the Old Covenant to Moses on Mount Sinai, and the giving of the New Law to Peter."

Papal tombs. "The earliest Bishops of Rome were buried on the Vatican close round the tomb which contained the relics of the apostle. There their bodies were found in the excavations in 1626, still largely preserved by the quasi-embalming process to which they had been subjected, and surrounding St. Peter like bishops attending a council." This juxtaposition to St. Peter is itself a mute testimony to the papal succession. When the Vatican area was filled, the pontiffs of the third century were laid in what thereby became known as the Papal Crypt in the Calixtine Catacomb. Recent excavations at the Vatican Basilica during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII have brought to light a wealth of archaeological evidence which, while still controversial in certain details, lends substantial confirmation to all the major traditions of St. Peter's Roman burial and of papal succession in the Roman episcopate.

(Catholic Church History, Pagan Imperialism (49 B.C.-313 A.D.), IV. Ordeal of the Church (249-313), 25. Catacomb Christian Life)

Sincerely, Tim (alias Ratjaws)
 
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dignitized

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Peter was first among EQUALS. Even Peter submitted himself to James at the Council of Jerusalem as is recorded in Scriptures. ALSO - St Augustine states that it is the confession of Peter upon which the church is built. The foundations of the church are FAITH not jelly legged peter who thrice denied Jesus Christ. I would not call him a "sure Foundation." If you read on you see that shortly after this conversation the Lord OPENLY rebukes Peter calling him SATAN. Does this sound like what one would say to a man who is called to be the foundation of the Christian Community?

Let us never forget that EVERY word of scripture is for a reason and a purpose. NOT one word is there by accident. Even in the Greek it states THIS rock.
 
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Rick Otto

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LOL,
Br.Max, from your picture & our discussiom on Nicolaitanism, I was suspecting you of BEING Catholic!
My mistake.
I'm sure I may be jumping to some conclusions here, but from the webmaster's Arminian position statement, Luchnia was banned for "calling a spade a spade" somewhere along the line. I hope I haven't just indicted myself by association, but if the shoe fits...

I had to laugh when I read Ratjaw's name & saw his picture! No lack of irony there.
Unselfconcious self-parody. Priceless.
But I have to say the depth of rationalization along with the strain on capacity for civility has been entertaining. It seems to stress the most, those who are most willing to claim & exert authority over those scripture identifies as brothers to be served.
Idolization can be as subtle as semantics, but the preponderance of circumstantial evidence speaks more plainly & louder than any of the pharisiacal professions, drowned as it were, in their ritual ceremonies, and other visible evidences of the faith they profess to have. Thus the elevation of tradition to the level of scripture.
Christ calls us out, men call us in.

"Thus the Church holds firm to reality while Her separated members, that one in ninety-nine stray sheep, wander in doctrinal confusion with the end result of widespread sectarian division and a poorer witness to the world than Christ wills. Case closed!"
-I think the actual numbers won't support the 1-in-99 correlation, & that doctrinal confusion & sectarian division were invented by Catholics & adopted by Protestants and, to think either is better than the other is to confuse Christianity with "Churchianity".
I hope it doesn't offend your sense of authority too much, if I decide for myself if the case is "closed".

Who was it that said "God trusted men to write the scripture"? He did no such thing, God knows better than to place His trust in men. Instead, He places his inspiration in them, & trusts that. Their is nothing in men worthy of trust, other than that they are untrustworthy. That's why we need a savior, not a pope.
 
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dignitized

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Rick Otto said:
LOL,
Br.Max, from your picture & our discussiom on Nicolaitanism, I was suspecting you of BEING Catholic!
My mistake.
You will learn not to make any assumptions sooner or later - especially where I am concerned. :) If you are interested in some insight into what I believe, you could always ask me instead of assuming :D But short of that you could always read: http://www.crucifiedone.org/geninfo.html

Pax et bonum
 
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