Those who denounce Paul

[ananda]

I don't recall Jesus calling the Pharisees 'beloved brother' and reminding others of the 'wisdom given to' them. It was something more like 'vipers' and 'children of hell' and 'don't eat that yeast'.

So either Peter is showing more lenience to Pharisees than Jesus did (making him suspect as well) or Peter considered Paul to be 'in the fold', and worth listening to (albeit with discretion).

Is all "wisdom" from YHWH? See Jam 3:15

... it all boils down to this one question then: Is Peter infallible?

 

[BlunderAngel]

They do show Peter endorsed Paul and his teaching.

No they do not. Otherwise when Peter was in Ephesus and the church, the one of the seven that put alleged false teachers or apostles on trial, found him to be a liar all of Asia then would not have turned their back on Paul.
But they did.
If Peter had endorsed Paul he would have called him a true apostle. He did not. No one ever acknowledged Paul to be an Apostle, the 13th apostle, save for Luke, Paul's employee and but twice in scripture. And Paul himself who repeatedly referred to himself as such.

 

[Frogster]

Peter was warning his readers to not fall into lawlessness after reading Paul & the Scriptures.

lol..he said his beloved brother Paul right in the text...

why would peter call christians twisted, those who twist Paul?

he was warning against the scoffers previously mentioned, and then said, this is the true grace of God, stand in it in chapter 5, just like Paul in rom 5:2..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by netzarim

Re-read it again, sister, and don't forget to read 2Pet 3:17 this time
​

I'm still looking at verse 15, in which Peter calls Paul 'our beloved brother'.

Netzarim [and others like him] is just confused:

YoungLT)
2Pe 3:
15
and the long-suffering of our Lord count ye salvation, according as also our beloved brother Paul -- according to the wisdom given to him -- did write to you,
16
as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, among which things are certain hard to be understood, which the untaught and unstable do wrest, as also the other Writings, unto their own destruction.

He also started this thread on that passage sometime back:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7599812-54/
False Apostle Paul & 2 Peter 3:15-17

I've been reading Questioning Paul for some time now, and I agree with the author's conclusions thus far. I understand many Christians quote 2 Peter 3:15-17 in support of Paul; I'll quote the author's expanded translation of these verses to you for consideration:

Contrary to how most Christians use these verses (based on faulty or muddled translations hiding the truth), he is stating that in actuality:

May Messiah commend us as He commended the assembly at Ephesus:

Messiah's letters in Revelation 2-3 was for His seven churches of Asia which were true to Him. Remarkably, it is also interesting to note that Ephesus is in the ancient Roman province of Asia, of which Paul wrote, in his own words:

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[Frogster]

Whatever is the source of that righteousness doesn't really matter. All He wants us to do is to focus on walking in righteousness.

Jesus daid, he who beleives is not condemend in John 3, and 5.

why did the jews stumble over Christ, by trying to come in by law, if one neeeds law to come in?

see?

 

[Frogster]

Amein.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1Jo 5:3

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14

do you mean the 2 in 1 John 3:23, or the 613?

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.

2...2...2...2...2....

 

[Frogster]

Can someone be a brother yet still be false? See Deu 19:18

Can someone be loved while yet an enemy? See Mt 5:44

stretch, besides, james said it in Acts 15, Paul, who risked his life for the Lord.

 

[Frogster]

Is all "wisdom" from YHWH? See Jam 3:15

... it all boils down to this one question then: Is Peter infallible?

i thought u havs both books in 'your" canon?

 

[Frogster]

No they do not. Otherwise when Peter was in Ephesus and the church, the one of the seven that put alleged false teachers or apostles on trial, found him to be a liar all of Asia then would not have turned their back on Paul.
But they did.
If Peter had endorsed Paul he would have called him a true apostle. He did not. No one ever acknowledged Paul to be an Apostle, the 13th apostle, save for Luke, Paul's employee and but twice in scripture. And Paul himself who repeatedly referred to himself as such.

prove that ephesus verse was about Paul?

besides, acts 15 was Paul there as an apostle....lol!

you know, the guy that started churches.....

Did peter say Paul was not an apostle?

 

[Frogster]

Netzarim [and others like him] is just confused:




He also started this thread on that passage sometime back:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7599812-54/
False Apostle Paul & 2 Peter 3:15-17




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[LittleLambofJesus]

Is all "wisdom" from YHWH? See Jam 3:15

... it all boils down to this one question then: Is Peter infallible?

Probably best to ask the RCs that, since he is considered their first Pope

Which begs the question..would that make Catholicism's Pope infallible?


http://www.christianforums.com/t7371363-5/
peter the first pope?

I am sure this has been discussed many times and I am sorry to bother you with this again, but I have come accross some new (to me information), I would like to know what is the theological evidence AND the hsitorical evidence for peter being the first pope. Historically is there any evidence that peter was in rome before the 60's ad? and if not how can anyone claim that the peter is the first pope, since the chruch was in existant prior to that?

I am asking this because, i have recently heard on TBN that the diciples went to various cities in the roman empire, after pentecost and estiblished chruch in conjection with the holy spirits work. They said that James actually went to Spain, and set up the chruch there, these are the churches mentioned by paul. could peter have gone to Rome? is this the basis of the claim of peter being the first pope? and if he did, is that enough to quallify Rome as supreme? the man who was saying this was a well respected conservative

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[BlunderAngel]

prove that ephesus verse was about Paul?

besides, acts 15 was Paul there as an apostle....lol!

you know, the guy that started churches.....

Did peter say Paul was not an apostle?

Yes, the majority of the new testament is comprised of the letters Paul wrote to those churches he started! Exactly the point! Keeping them in line with his doctrine that very often conflicted with that of Christ because he never knew Jesus!

Prove the Ephesus verse was about Paul? No. When you are a Pauline apologist you should know what Paul himself said about the decree brought against him by the church in Ephesis and how all of Asia turned against him.

Do you imagine another apostle could be referred to in Revelation 2:1-5 as that apostle Jesus talks about that was tested there and found to be a liar?
When Paul himself said they turned away from him. Every church in Asia!
Did the one church of those seven that elected to bring to trial all alleged false apostles bring to trial Peter? Or any other apostle and find them false? No!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by netzarim

Re-read it again, sister, and don't forget to read 2Pet 3:17 this time
​

​

Originally Posted by seeingeyes

I'm still looking at verse 15, in which Peter calls Paul 'our beloved brother'.
​

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

​

Netzarim [and others like him] is just confused:




He also started this thread on that passage sometime back:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7599812-54/
False Apostle Paul & 2 Peter 3:15-17

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​

I just bumped that thread up.

I wish it was on the GT board


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[BlunderAngel]

Netzarim,
Isn't the scripture wherein Jesus said he was the way, the truth, and the life, metaphorical references to the Torah? (John 14:6)

 

[seeingeyes]

Is all "wisdom" from YHWH? See Jam 3:15

... it all boils down to this one question then: Is Peter infallible?

Oh, I'm not one to argue infallibility. I gave that up when I lost my own infallibility.

What I'm questioning is whether it is necessary to toss out all of Paul in order to follow Jesus when Peter did not seem to think so.

Peter is saying that plenty of people are 'reading' Paul all wrong. I agree with that.

 

[ananda]

Netzarim,
Isn't the scripture wherein Jesus said he was the way, the truth, and the life, metaphorical references to the Torah? (John 14:6)

Indeed, the The Way (Psa 119:1), the Truth (Psa 119:142), and the Life (Prov 13:14) all points to the Torah.

I believe Messiah is the embodiment of YHWH's Torah as a man (Jn 1:14, 1Jn 1)

 

[from scratch]

Indeed, the The Way (Psa 119:1), the Truth (Psa 119:142), and the Life (Prov 13:14) all points to the Torah.

I believe Messiah is the embodiment of YHWH's Torah as a man (Jn 1:14, 1Jn 1)

Why can't you bring yourself to refer to Him as Jesus? John His disciple does.

 

[ananda]

Oh, I'm not one to argue infallibility. I gave that up when I lost my own infallibility.

What I'm questioning is whether it is necessary to toss out all of Paul in order to follow Jesus when Peter did not seem to think so.

Peter is saying that plenty of people are 'reading' Paul all wrong. I agree with that.

I believe Messiah taught us to listen to the Pharisees when they teach rightly from Torah. I also believe that He taught us to reject their doctrines (their traditions).

My "takeaway" from that is that if a Pharisee was trying to teach me anything, I must compare what he says to whatever Torah and Messiah taught. If there is any deviation, then I am obligated to reject that tradition in favor of Torah & Messiah. I believe this is also in harmony with Deu 13:1-6, Deu 18:20-22, Isa 8:20.

 

[ananda]

Why can't you bring yourself to refer to Him as Jesus? John His disciple does.

I prefer to call Him by His Hebrew Name - "Yehoshua" or "Yeshua" for short.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I prefer to call Him by His Hebrew Name - "Yehoshua" or "Yeshua" for short.

Semantics...that is all it is.......


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