Those who denounce Paul

[Standing Up]

Why is this garbage even in GT? Shouldn't this be in UT?

Don't worry.

 

[Frogster]

I consider Luke & Acts to be history books, written by a man without much first-hand eyewitness experience to the events he chronicled, but from the records he heard from others. These books are part of my canon as Ketuvim-level Scripture.

Luke was there in alot of the first hand accounts in Acts.

 

[Frogster]

I consider Luke & Acts to be history books, written by a man without much first-hand eyewitness experience to the events he chronicled, but from the records he heard from others. These books are part of my canon as Ketuvim-level Scripture.

did luke lie in the writing of the book of acts?

 

[ananda]

I'm not sure I see much of a difference between James 2 and Ephesians 4 (for example) or Galatians 5 (though Gal 5 uses stronger language about 'keeping the whole law' than James does).

Is there some specific teaching of his that you disagree with? And if so, can you find that teaching's counterpart in the Pharisees that Jesus rebuked?

(It's unfortunate what this thread has become. I hope that you can tell that my questions are sincere, and not opportunities to say 'gotcha'.)

God bless

I appreciate your sincere questions

Unfortunately, I will have to say that I am gagged from answering your specific questions in this particular forum.

 

[ananda]

Good luck with this:

Mt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Can your righteousness exceed theirs?

Absolutely.

If you'll see in Messiah's parables, He constantly preached against them for being weak on the Law, and substituting their traditions in place of the Law. Their traditions they called the "Oral Law", and under their delusion, they believed that their "Oral Law" was YHWH's Law, when it really wasn't!

That is why Messiah said that our righteousness must exceed those of the the Pharisees' anti-Law teachings & practices.

 

[seeingeyes]

I appreciate your sincere questions

Unfortunately, I will have to say that I am gagged from answering your specific questions in this particular forum.

I know the feeling. Though since I'm rather 'lawless' I tend to get deleted rather than gagged.

God bless!

 

[ananda]

I know the feeling. Though since I'm rather 'lawless' I tend to get deleted rather than gagged.

God bless!

Thank you, may YHWH bless you as well.

 

[ananda]

Peter wrote scripture with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. His NT writings are infallible. You, on the other hand, are not infallible.

Where does it say Peter's writings are infallible?

Nope.

Nope.

This is the problem with the name it and claim it routine. Once the obvious have been pointed you detach yourself from it. Hey, maybe the Ebonites became a gnostic cult with the believe that Jesus was a mere man because they lacked Paul's epistles.

I do not claim to be Ebionite, although I have many beliefs in common with theirs - but not all. Do you practice the teachings of Westboro Baptist Church, or are you going to detach yourself from it now that I mentioned them?

 

[Frogster]

Where does it say Peter's writings are infallible?

Nope.

I do not claim to be Ebionite, although I have many beliefs in common with theirs - but not all. Do you practice the teachings of Westboro Baptist Church, or are you going to detach yourself from it now that I mentioned them?

as often said to you, from me, and others, with all due respect, we have to chuck out Luke's gospel, along with Acts, and Peter, for your theology to stand.

I asked a valid question.

Did luke lie in the penning of Acts, with all the wonderful paul confirming verses?

 

[ananda]

It's interesting that you claim here to follow the first two commandments perfectly ...

netzarim: So, do you worship Him diligently, or perfectly?
I worship Him perfectly not diligently. If I worshiped Him diligently then that would imply that there are times when I am not diligent in worshiping God only and would worship other gods.

netzarim: Do you try your best to worship YHWH only? A yes or no will suffice.
I don't have try, I do.

netzarim: Interesting. So you've never worshiped anything else in your heart
Once God called me into His fold, no. There are no other gods.

... yet in the same breath you condemn me for not being able to diligently follow the commandments ...

In other words you adhere to the "anti-law" by observing what YOU believe is important. The Pharisees did the same.

lol contradictions? The law of liberty is liberty from sin and yet you sin. Not liberty from doing what's right, and yet you do what is not right. This is why Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and why what you are proposing is equally hypocritical.

netzarim: Excuse me? I try to do what's right...<snip>You can't try. You either do or you don't. You have already failed by trying. Are you ready to be judged by the WHOLE law? Oh wait, you only TRY to follow that parts that you believe apply to you and then with no measure of efficacy. BTW- no, you are not excused.

Then you are at liberty to sin so you transgress the very law that you TRY to uphold.

You observe what you believe is important, e.g. worshiping YHWH alone. Are you adhering to "anti-law"? Are you following the footsteps of the Pharisees? You believe you perfectly worship YHWH alone. Surely you only TRY to follow those parts that you believe apply to you and then with no measure of efficacy. Surely you transgress the very law you TRY to uphold.

Talk about a web of confusion when it comes to "orthodox" thought!: "Either follow the commandments perfectly, or don't try at all, because trying to be diligent (and not being perfect at it) is anti-Law and sin! In fact, trying should be avoided, because then it might look like you're trying to earn your salvation - so do the opposite of what YHWH commanded instead!"

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa 5:20
​

I prefer my straightforward understanding of Scripture: Walk in faithfulness and diligent obedience to YHWH and Messiah, working alongside Him to fulfill His goals, as a loving wife would gladly do so for her perfect Husband, trusting in His forgiveness for her imperfections & for the rare times she might fall.

 

[Standing Up]

Absolutely.

If you'll see in Messiah's parables, He constantly preached against them for being weak on the Law, and substituting their traditions in place of the Law. Their traditions they called the "Oral Law", and under their delusion, they believed that their "Oral Law" was YHWH's Law, when it really wasn't!

That is why Messiah said that our righteousness must exceed those of the the Pharisees' anti-Law teachings & practices.

So, you are observing all 613 laws from the OT perfectly each day.

What about going to Jerusalem 3x/year and sacrificing in the Temple part? Without that, you are not exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees.

There is a solution, however. Care to know?

 

[ananda]

So, you are observing all 613 laws from the OT perfectly each day.

What about going to Jerusalem 3x/year and sacrificing in the Temple part? Without that, you are not exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees.

There is a solution, however. Care to know?

You presented alleged "problems" which are not problems in my view.

As I've written repeatedly in this thread, I do not believe that we are required to observe the commandments perfectly, but only diligently (with a goal of aiming for perfection). (You may wish to ask Hentenza how he perfectly observes the commandments he chooses to observe ).

The Temple is not in existence. It is incumbent upon YHWH to restore His Temple before sacrifices are restored. This is prophesied in Scripture.

 

[Standing Up]

You presented alleged "problems" which are not problems in my view.

As I've written repeatedly in this thread, I do not believe that we are required to observe the commandments perfectly, but only diligently (with a goal of aiming for perfection). (You may wish to ask Hentenza how he perfectly observes the commandments He chooses to observe ).

The Temple is not in existence. It is incumbent upon YHWH to restore His Temple before sacrifices are restored. This is prophesied in Scripture.

So, diligently pursuing would be, to you, exceeding the Pharisee righteousness, even though they had a temple, etc, and you do not.

When they missed Passover by two days, they had to wait to the second month Passover. They were diligent, they tried, but not perfect in that they missed it. You think God winks at diligence that comes short of perfect righteousness?

 

[BlunderAngel]

as often said to you, from me, and others, with all due respect, we have to chuck out Luke's gospel, along with Acts, and Peter, for your theology to stand.

I asked a valid question.

Did luke lie in the penning of Acts, with all the wonderful paul confirming verses?

Luke wasn't a disciple of Christ. He was an employee of Paul.

 

[BlunderAngel]

So, diligently pursuing would be, to you, exceeding the Pharisee righteousness, even though they had a temple, etc, and you do not.

When they missed Passover by two days, they had to wait to the second month Passover. They were diligent, they tried, but not perfect in that they missed it. You think God winks at diligence that comes short of perfect righteousness?

When Jesus called the Pharisee vipers, said they were of the Devil, and condemned them in other ways, especially when they were lovers of money, exceeding their righteousness in the eyes of the Lord would not be an arduous task considering the Lord while on earth knew them and found them wanting.

 

[ananda]

So, diligently pursuing would be, to you, exceeding the Pharisee righteousness, even though they had a temple, etc, and you do not.

When they missed Passover by two days, they had to wait to the second month Passover. They were diligent, they tried, but not perfect in that they missed it. You think God winks at diligence that comes short of perfect righteousness?

It seems you misunderstand the 1st century Pharisees.

The Pharisees and scribes were leaders associated with the local synagogues scattered across Israel and in the diaspora. The Sadducees were leaders associated with the Temple.

The Pharisees advocated worship centered on the synagogue instead of the Temple.

The Pharisees were anti-Law, and pro-tradition. They thought that following their traditions & Oral Law was, in effect, following YHWH's Written Law. They were self-righteous. That is the meaning of self-righteousness - they believed they were wholly righteous because they followed their own definition of righteousness, instead of YHWH's definition. Messiah came and preached against them and their anti-Law theology.

And yes, YHWH provides second chances for those who desire to faithfully follow Him.

 

[Standing Up]

When Jesus called the Pharisee vipers, said they were of the Devil, and condemned them in other ways, especially when they were lovers of money, exceeding their righteousness in the eyes of the Lord would not be an arduous task considering the Lord while on earth knew them and found them wanting.

Wrong. Look at the context. It is arduous.

It seems you misunderstand the 1st century Pharisees.

The Pharisees and scribes were leaders associated with the local synagogues scattered across Israel and in the diaspora. The Sadducees were leaders associated with the Temple.

The Pharisees advocated worship centered on the synagogue instead of the Temple.

The Pharisees were anti-Law, and pro-tradition. They thought that following their traditions & Oral Law was, in effect, following YHWH's Written Law. They were self-righteous. That is the meaning of self-righteousness - they believed they were wholly righteous because they followed their own definition of righteousness, instead of YHWH's definition. Messiah came and preached against them and their anti-Law theology.

And yes, YHWH provides second chances for those who desire to faithfully follow Him.

The context of one's righteousness exceeding the Pharisees is observing the Law.


"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

That righteousness exceeding the PHarisees is NOT breaking even the least of the commandments.

It has nothing to do with trying, with being diligent, but doing it perfectly, day in and day out.

Have you done this? If not, your righteousness falls short.

See the word "for" that Christ says? He's offering a way out of the problem.

 

[Mazock]

Ridiculous!

Of course his righteousness falls short. Without Yeshua


However, I'm certain you'll be surprised to find that his willingness to attempt to follow Torah will be rewarded on Judgement Day.

While your unwillingness to follow Torah will not.

 

[ananda]

The context of one's righteousness exceeding the Pharisees is observing the Law.

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

That righteousness exceeding the PHarisees is NOT breaking even the least of the commandments. It has nothing to do with trying, with being diligent, but doing it perfectly, day in and day out. Have you done this? If not, your righteousness falls short. See the word "for" that Christ says? He's offering a way out of the problem.

I agree that "righteousness" is associated with obedience.

I disagree with the rest of your interpretation.

The Pharisees weren't diligently observing much of YHWH's Law. Instead, their error was that they were actively revoking YHWH's Law with their own Oral Law! They were consciously working against YHWH's Law, and thus breaking the commandments, as Messiah observed.

Messiah is stating that we must be better than the Pharisees, and observe YHWH's commandments instead of working against them like the Pharisees did.

Messiah is not saying we must perfectly observe the Law. He is merely saying we must observe it more than the self-righteous un-observation of the Pharisees. This is harmony with the other verses I've shown regarding diligent observation.

 

[Hentenza]

It's interesting that you claim here to follow the first two commandments perfectly ...

Is not just the 10 commandments that you push but push for the Jewish law in general (minus what YOU consider not relevant today). The 10 commandments, sans the 4th, are all repeated in the new covenant while none of the remainder of the Jewish law is repeated in the NC. The Jewish law is not prescribed in the NC.

Secondly, in Jesus we have an advocate while in the law you are on your own.

Thirdly, the first two commandments, "I am the Lord your God" and "You shall have no other gods before me," make the Lord your only God. I don't see how you can "diligently," in contrast to "perfectly," follow these two commandments. Either you believe that God is the only Lord and that you don't worship a different Lord all the time or you then have periods where you believe that God is not the only Lord and that at periods you do worship other gods.

... yet in the same breath you condemn me for not being able to diligently follow the commandments ...

I am not condemning you but merely showing the hypocrisy of your statements. And again, you are promoting much more than just the ten commandments.

You observe what you believe is important, e.g. worshiping YHWH alone. Are you adhering to "anti-law"? Are you following the footsteps of the Pharisees? You believe you perfectly worship YHWH alone. Surely you only TRY to follow those parts that you believe apply to you and then with no measure of efficacy. Surely you transgress the very law you TRY to uphold.

Nah, I observe the Lord not the law. I have an advocate and God's free grace. I don't have the letter of the law or the desire to attempt to uphold what I know I can't uphold.

Talk about a web of confusion when it comes to "orthodox" thought!: "Either follow the commandments perfectly, or don't try at all, because trying to be diligent (and not being perfect at it) is anti-Law and sin! In fact, trying should be avoided, because then it might look like you're trying to earn your salvation - so do the opposite of what YHWH commanded instead!"

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa 5:20​

Gotta love the out of context verse. lol You are preaching a works salvation. You are not relying on the power of the cross but on your own ability to keep what you can't keep. If following the law would have atoned for sin then Jesus did not have to die. If following the law would have justified the believer then Jesus did not have to die. If following the law could have imparted grace then Jesus did not have to die.

I prefer my straightforward understanding of Scripture: Walk in faithfulness and diligent obedience to YHWH and Messiah, working alongside Him to fulfill His goals, as a loving wife would gladly do so for her perfect Husband, trusting in His forgiveness for her imperfections & for the rare times she might fall.

1. You have determined your own scripture so you only walk in what YOU believe is faithfulness and diligent obedience.

2. Walking in faithfulness and diligent obedience is not following the Jewish law but following Jesus out of your love for Him. To borrow your analogy, I don't do good works for my wife because I have a checklist to follow but because I love her.

3. God has already forgiven your imperfections and fallings. He knows your imperfections and He knows you fallings; He knows them before the foundation of the world. You can't impress Him with your human abilities (or presumptions of).

Tell me Netzarim, what exactly do you follow? Out of the 613 commandments of the law, how many do you "diligently" follow?