Those who denounce Paul

[Hentenza]

Ridiculous!

Of course his righteousness falls short. Without Yeshua


However, I'm certain you'll be surprised to find that his willingness to attempt to follow Torah will be rewarded on Judgement Day.

While your unwillingness to follow Torah will not.

Only Jesus will judge the believer, not you. The torah is part of the old covenant which became obsolete with the issuing of the new one. The Christian believer does not have to convert to Judaism in order to be a Christian.

 

[BlunderAngel]

Wrong. Look at the context. It is arduous.

The contextual misunderstanding would be yours. It is not a matter of great exertion to keep up with a sect, the Pharisee, that Jesus condemned. They are of no matter then and are to be discounted. Therefore, the Christian is to pursue their own righteousness without seeking to achieve any degree of equality with that sect which were judged vipers and of Satan.Especially when Satan and his doctrine and methodology are something to be overcome and denounced.

 

[ananda]

Is not just the 10 commandments that you push but push for the Jewish law in general (minus what YOU consider not relevant today). The 10 commandments, sans the 4th, are all repeated in the new covenant while none of the remainder of the Jewish law is repeated in the NC. The Jewish law is not prescribed in the NC.

Secondly, in Jesus we have an advocate while in the law you are on your own.

Thirdly, the first two commandments, "I am the Lord your God" and "You shall have no other gods before me," make the Lord your only God. I don't see how you can "diligently," in contrast to "perfectly," follow these two commandments. Either you believe that God is the only Lord and that you don't worship a different Lord all the time or you then have periods where you believe that God is not the only Lord and that at periods you do worship other gods.

Gotta love the out of context verse. lol You are preaching a works salvation. You are not relying on the power of the cross but on your own ability to keep what you can't keep. If following the law would have atoned for sin then Jesus did not have to die. If following the law would have justified the believer then Jesus did not have to die. If following the law could have imparted grace then Jesus did not have to die.

1. You have determined your own scripture so you only walk in what YOU believe is faithfulness and diligent obedience.

2. Walking in faithfulness and diligent obedience is not following the Jewish law but following Jesus out of your love for Him. To borrow your analogy, I don't do good works for my wife because I have a checklist to follow but because I love her.

3. God has already forgiven your imperfections and fallings. He knows your imperfections and He knows you fallings; He knows them before the foundation of the world. You can't impress Him with your human abilities (or presumptions of).

Tell me Netzarim, what exactly do you follow? Out of the 613 commandments of the law, how many do you "diligently" follow?

1. It's not "Jewish" Law. It's YHWH's Law for His faithful People. Messiah was sent by YHWH and spoke all the Words which YHWH gave Him to speak. Messiah is YHWH. What Messiah commanded is what YHWH commanded. What YHWH commanded is what Messiah commanded. It is all One Law.

2. You divorce Messiah from YHWH, and "Messiah's commandments" from "YHWH's commandments". I do not find that doctrine supported anywhere in the Tanak/Old Testament, nor in Messiah's teachings.

3. I'm not preaching a works salvation. I'm preaching a repentance, faithfulness, and obedience salvation.

4. I have chosen my canon - based on Scriptural rules which guided my decision. You have also chosen your canon - presumably based on church tradition.

5. I am still in the process of learning all of His commandments, and integrating them into my life to the best of my ability.

Tell me, Hentenza, how many of the hundreds of thousands of civil laws do you diligently or perfectly follow?

 

[Hentenza]

1. It's not "Jewish" Law.

It is the Jewish law, given to the Jews through Moses at Sanai.

It's YHWH's Law for His faithful People.

The Jews were not faithful, hence why they are cut off the tree.

Messiah was sent by YHWH and spoke all the Words which YHWH gave Him to speak. Messiah is YHWH.

Yep.

What Messiah commanded is what YHWH commanded. What YHWH commanded is what Messiah commanded. It is all One Law.

Jesus did not command the Jewish law.

2. You divorce Messiah from YHWH, and "Messiah's commandments" from "YHWH's commandments". I do not find that doctrine supported anywhere in the Tanak/Old Testament, nor in Messiah's teachings.

It is, you are just ignoring it in favor of your doctrines.

3. I'm not preaching a works salvation. I'm preaching a repentance, faithfulness, and obedience salvation.

No, you are preaching a works salvation. In your doctrine adherence to the letter of the law is at par with faith and governs faith.

4. I have chosen my canon - based on Scriptural rules which guided my decision. You have also chosen your canon - presumably based on church tradition.

You have no authority to chose your own canon. What you have done is what multiple cult leaders have done and chosen a canon that validates their doctrines while ignoring the rest.

5. I am still in the process of learning all of His commandments, and integrating them into my life to the best of my ability.

lol In other words, you are not following the law out of ignorance of the law. Your ability is lacking.

Tell me, Hentenza, how many of the hundreds of thousands of civil laws do you diligently or perfectly follow?

Red herring. Adherence to the civil laws play no part in my salvation.

 

[Mazock]

LA LA LA LA LA!

Stop talking to me. I refuse to listen.

 

[ananda]

It is the Jewish law, given to the Jews through Moses at Sanai.

Nope. It's YHWH's Law, given to both faithful Jews and Gentiles, through Moses. Faithful Jews and faithful Gentiles left Egypt together. Moses' farewell address to the nation and reminder to walk in faithfulness and obedience included both groups.

The Jews were not faithful, hence why they are cut off the tree.

Many ethnic Jews were unfaithful, yes.

Jesus did not command the Jewish law.

He commanded observance of YHWH's Law.

It is, you are just ignoring it in favor of your doctrines.

How can you believe Messiah is YHWH, if you can divorce one from the other? Is YHWH a double-minded man, like James preached against? Is not YHWH One? Is not YHWH unchangeable?

No, you are preaching a works salvation. In your doctrine adherence to the letter of the law is at par with faith and governs faith.

No, I do not preach a works salvation. Nor do I say that a wife works to earn her husband's love and respect and protection. She loves Him, and demonstrates that love by her obedience to her Husband's expectations. "Obedience" does not equal "works".

You have no authority to chose your own canon. What you have done is what multiple cult leaders have done and chosen a canon that validates their doctrines while ignoring the rest.

I have no authority to choose my own canon? This authority was given as a responsibility to every single believer, e.g. Deu 13, Deu 18, etc.!

What gives you the authority to choose your canon, then?

lol In other words, you are not following the law out of ignorance of the law. Your ability is lacking.

Yet yours isn't? So, I cannot diligently keep His commandments, yet you can allegedly & perfectly keep His commandment?

Red herring. Adherence to the civil laws play no part in my salvation.

Not a red herring. It is intimately related to the discussion at hand. If I remember correctly, you've stated before it's impossible to follow 613(?) commandments, yet I would say most here diligently attempt to follow the hundreds of thousands of commandments in civil law. Why is 613 tougher than hundreds of thousands?

(BTW, as a side note, I'm in the process of counting the commandments, and so far, it's far less than 613).

 

[Metal Minister]

4. I have chosen my canon - based on Scriptural rules which guided my decision. You have also chosen your canon - presumably based on church tradition.

My friend, it sounds very much like you are ignoring Deuteronomy 4:1-2 and Revelations 22:18-19.

In Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Moses warns the Jews not to take away from His revealed word, and in Revelations, Jesus warns us not to take anything away from that book. It would seem that God is very particular about tampering with His word, so your cherry picking of which books to follow is very dangerous. Please take care!

 

[ananda]

My friend, it sounds very much like you are ignoring Deuteronomy 4:1-2 and Revelations 22:18-19.

In Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Moses warns the Jews not to take away from His revealed word, and in Revelations, Jesus warns us not to take anything away from that book. It would seem that God is very particular about tampering with His word, so your cherry picking of which books to follow is very dangerous. Please take care!

Absolutely, I am well aware of those verses, my friend.

We should also not forget that those same verses commands us to not add to His word either.

That is the very reason I do question the status quo! So, since we are not to add or subtract from His Word, should it not be important for us to employ the rules YHWH definitely gave (in the books which Messiah definitively identified as "Scripture") to test everything that came afterwards?

Please take care as well!

 

[cyberlizard]

some on here feel the law is jewish, some that it is HaShem's. However we would all do well to remember that the Law was given to a mixed multitude as those who came out of Egypt were Israelites and those who joined themselved to her.


Steve

 

[Hentenza]

Nope. It's YHWH's Law, given to both faithful Jews and Gentiles, through Moses. Faithful Jews and faithful Gentiles left Egypt together. Moses' farewell address to the nation and reminder to walk in faithfulness and obedience included both groups.

No, the law was given to the Jews. See Exodus 20.

He commanded observance of YHWH's Law.

Where?

How can you believe Messiah is YHWH, if you can divorce one from the other? Is YHWH a double-minded man, like James preached against? Is not YHWH One? Is not YHWH unchangeable?

God is unchangeable and He is the author of the old and new covenants. God did not change His mind when He gave us a new covenant.

No, I do not preach a works salvation. Nor do I say that a wife works to earn her husband's love and respect and protection. She loves Him, and demonstrates that love by her obedience to her Husband's expectations. "Obedience" does not equal "works".

1. Yes you do preach a works salvation. It did not work for the Jews just as it is not going to work for you.

2. Anything that we do outside of Grace is a work. Obedience is a work because it is what we can do. However, obedience is subjective and one can boast about it. If you follow a checklist then you are being fooled into believing that you are good.

I have no authority to choose my own canon? This authority was given as a responsibility to every single believer, e.g. Deu 13, Deu 18, etc.!

As I stated earlier, you have merely chosen a canon that agrees with your doctrines.

What gives you the authority to choose your canon, then?

God already chose the canon. After all, it is His revelation and He is perfectly capable of choosing it and maintaining it.

Yet yours isn't? So, I cannot diligently keep His commandments, yet you can allegedly & perfectly keep His commandment?

You can't diligently follow the law. Many have tried, all but one has failed. In fact, scriptures trumps your understanding:

Deut. 27
26 ‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

This verse is explained in Galatians 3:

10 For as many as are of the works of [o]the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified [p]by [q]the Law before God is evident; for, “[r]The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 [s]However, the Law is not [t]of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live [u]by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a [v]tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might [w]come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Christ redeemed the Christian from the curse of the law which you are promoting. The law is not of faith and all that have been saved have been saved by faith not by doing the works of the law.

Not a red herring. It is intimately related to the discussion at hand. If I remember correctly, you've stated before it's impossible to follow 613(?) commandments, yet I would say most here diligently attempt to follow the hundreds of thousands of commandments in civil law. Why is 613 tougher than hundreds of thousands?

It is a red herring. My salvation does not depend on earthly laws.

(BTW, as a side note, I'm in the process of counting the commandments, and so far, it's far less than 613).

I'm sure. Once you have removed the ones that you think do not apply who knows with how many you will end with. Many Rabbis have already done that work.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Why is this garbage even in GT? Shouldn't this be in UT?

Probably because there is already enough anti-Paul garbage over there already.......

http://www.christianforums.com/t7773902/#post64137894
What Gospel did Paul preach? (2)



.

 

[ananda]

No, the law was given to the Jews. See Exodus 20.

The Law was given to Israel. Israel includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles. Israel = "those who struggle with YHWH for His blessings".

Where?

Mt 5:19,20 & Mt 7:21-23 for example.

God is unchangeable and He is the author of the old and new covenants. God did not change His mind when He gave us a new covenant.

And the brand New Covenant is yet to come.

1. Yes you do preach a works salvation. It did not work for the Jews just as it is not going to work for you. 2. Anything that we do outside of Grace is a work. Obedience is a work because it is what we can do. However, obedience is subjective and one can boast about it. If you follow a checklist then you are being fooled into believing that you are good.

Obedience does not equal work. The word "obedience" involves the idea of motivation, whereas "work" does not.

As I stated earlier, you have merely chosen a canon that agrees with your doctrines. God already chose the canon. After all, it is His revelation and He is perfectly capable of choosing it and maintaining it.

But which canon did "God choose"? The Protestant canon? The Catholic canon? The Ethiopian Orthodox canon? Marcion's canon? Etc.? You've evaded this question before.

You can't diligently follow the law. Many have tried, all but one has failed. In fact, scriptures trumps your understanding: Deut. 27 26 ‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’ This verse is explained in Galatians 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of [o]the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified [p]by [q]the Law before God is evident; for, “[r]The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 [s]However, the Law is not [t]of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live [u]by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a [v]tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might [w]come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Deu is stating that those who do not walk in obedience is cursed. I cannot comment on Paul's writings directly, as you well know.

So, how can you perfectly follow the Law, when you say I cannot diligently follow it?

It is a red herring. My salvation does not depend on earthly laws. I'm sure. Once you have removed the ones that you think do not apply who knows with how many you will end with. Many Rabbis have already done that work.

Common sense. It tells me that, for example, the commandments given to the High Priest do not apply to me.

 

[Metal Minister]

Ok folks, I think we've run far afield of the op, lol! Discussion needs to meander back that direction.

 

[Hentenza]

The Law was given to Israel. Israel includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles. Israel = "those who struggle with YHWH for His blessings".

God has already sent us His blessings. He sent His only Son to die for us.

Mt 5:19,20 & Mt 7:21-23 for example.

Nothing here about the law being a requirement of Christianity. But then you removed the books that explains Jesus words. The law remains as a tutor to bring unbelievers to Christ not to guide the believer. We are under the ministry of the Spirit not the ministry of death.

And the brand New Covenant is yet to come.

Heb. 8
13 [i]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [j]ready to disappear.

Its been here.

Obedience does not equal work. The word "obedience" involves the idea of motivation, whereas "work" does not.

You don't get motivated to work? lol

All human actions are work.

But which canon did "God choose"? The Protestant canon? The Catholic canon? The Ethiopian Orthodox canon? Marcion's canon? Etc.? You've evaded this question before.

All mainstream church have the same canon with the exception of the apocrypha. We have discussed this at length before and I have not avoided the topic. Its not a hard topic Netzarim. What is hard is for you to arbitrarily choose your own canon.

 

[ananda]

God has already sent us His blessings. He sent His only Son to die for us. Nothing here about the law being a requirement of Christianity. But then you removed the books that explains Jesus words. The law remains as a tutor to bring unbelievers to Christ not to guide the believer. We are under the ministry of the Spirit not the ministry of death. Heb. 8 13 [i]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [j]ready to disappear. Its been here.

Let's just say that our divergent views are dependent on our divergent canons.

You don't get motivated to work? lol All human actions are work.

That wasn't my point. My point is that "work" - the word itself - to me has no implication of motivation, whereas the word "obedience" does, and therefore they are different.

All mainstream church have the same canon with the exception of the apocrypha. We have discussed this at length before and I have not avoided the topic. Its not a hard topic Netzarim. What is hard is for you to arbitrarily choose your own canon.

So, back to the OP as Metal Minister advised: you recognize that even among mainstream churches, there are different canons. Good. So which one is the correct one? The one with or without the Apocrypha? The one with or without Enoch? The one with or without Paul? The one with or without James? How did you "arbitrarily" choose which one was correct? I'm waiting for the name of the specific canon you're referring to.

 

[Frogster]

Luke wasn't a disciple of Christ. He was an employee of Paul.

i asked netzarim, if Luke lied in hid books, especially Acts, where he supports paul.

 

[Frogster]

Nope. It's YHWH's Law, given to both faithful Jews and Gentiles, through Moses. Faithful Jews and faithful Gentiles left Egypt together. Moses' farewell address to the nation and reminder to walk in faithfulness and obedience included both groups.

no, the law was not given to gentiles.







Psalm 147:19 He declares his word to Jacob, his statutes and rules to Israel.20 He has not dealt thus with any other nation; (gentiles mine) they do not know his rules. Praise the LORD!



2 Chronicles 2:4 Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God and dedicate it to him for the burning of incense of sweet spices before him, and for the regular arrangement of the showbread, and for burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths and the new moons and the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, as ordained forever for Israel.

Passover of the Gentiles, or Jews?


John 2:13
The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

John 6:4
Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand.

John 11:55
Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and many went up from the country to Jerusalem before the Passover to purify themselves

Exodus 12:48
When a stranger sojourning with you wishes to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.


1 Cor 9:21 To those outside the law (gentiles mine) I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.


Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law (gentiles mine)will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.



Acts 14:16 In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways.

Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Romans 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.

Many ethnic Jews were unfaithful, yes.

He commanded observance of YHWH's Law.

How can you believe Messiah is YHWH, if you can divorce one from the other? Is YHWH a double-minded man, like James preached against? Is not YHWH One? Is not YHWH unchangeable?

No, I do not preach a works salvation. Nor do I say that a wife works to earn her husband's love and respect and protection. She loves Him, and demonstrates that love by her obedience to her Husband's expectations. "Obedience" does not equal "works".

I have no authority to choose my own canon? This authority was given as a responsibility to every single believer, e.g. Deu 13, Deu 18, etc.!

What gives you the authority to choose your canon, then?

Yet yours isn't? So, I cannot diligently keep His commandments, yet you can allegedly & perfectly keep His commandment?

Not a red herring. It is intimately related to the discussion at hand. If I remember correctly, you've stated before it's impossible to follow 613(?) commandments, yet I would say most here diligently attempt to follow the hundreds of thousands of commandments in civil law. Why is 613 tougher than hundreds of thousands?

(BTW, as a side note, I'm in the process of counting the commandments, and so far, it's far less than 613).

 

[from scratch]

You don't get motivated to work? lol

I've had hunger pains at times. Was forced to work or starve. I like eating.

 

[from scratch]

Let's just say that our divergent views are dependent on our divergent canons.

Since you don't seem to like the Christian cannon why are you here?

 

[Frogster]

:d