Those who denounce Paul

netzarim said:

I accept Luke as a second-hand witness. However, the Scriptural requirement demands at least two or three first hand witnesses.

Finally, we do not have multiple corroborating first-hand witnesses to many of Paul's unique doctrines.

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your witness thing, for the most part, were about legal preceeedings, under the law, accusations, etc, just like in our courts, hence your constant usage of it is really not working here..

WHO WITNESSED ALL THE THINGS THAT MOSES SPOKE OF IN GENESIS?!

BEFORE HIS OWN MINISTRY, WAS HE THERE FOR THE FLOOD, ADAM AND EVE, OR WITH ABRAHAM, OR..OR..?

netzarim said:

Where's your Scriptural proof that perfection is needed, instead of diligence as I've demonstrated?

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Mt. 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Vines:
Break, Breaker, Breaking, Brake:
"to loosen," especially by way of deliverance, sometimes has the meaning of "breaking, destructively," e.g., of "breaking" commandments, not only infringing them, but loosing the force of them, rendering them not binding, ...

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Again, Paul knew full well the whole meaning of keeping the Law perfectly or failing at an iota and thus the whole.

Erose said:

Maybe shortly, I am really enjoying what I am reading. Don't want it to shift to focus on Catholic stuff, which it seems nearly every thread does eventually.

I do think this displays a weakness in Protestant understanding of Canon. For Catholics and other Apostolic Churches the authority question is simple. It is what has been determine by the bishops. When Luther and the other revolters rejected the authority of the bishops, then all bets were off. Surprisingly only 7 books authority was reduced and later removed.

And yet the group who 500 years ago had no problem removing books from the Christian Bible of the West, has an issue with others either removing or adding to the canon. I truly find this hilarious. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. (Southern saying)

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As mentioned before, the issue is not over the OT, but over the NT. We agree fully on the 27 books of the NT, while those 'against Paul' have a canon of some 6 NT books.

A better observation and more ironic would be to compare them with Marcion who retained Paul and jettisoned that which had to do with the OT.

Standing Up said:

Mt. 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Vines:
Break, Breaker, Breaking, Brake:
"to loosen," especially by way of deliverance, sometimes has the meaning of "breaking, destructively," e.g., of "breaking" commandments, not only infringing them, but loosing the force of them, rendering them not binding, ...

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

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None of these verses talk about keeping them perfectly. I contend that keeping them diligently is keeping them.

Standing Up said:

Mt. 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Vines:
Break, Breaker, Breaking, Brake:
"to loosen," especially by way of deliverance, sometimes has the meaning of "breaking, destructively," e.g., of "breaking" commandments, not only infringing them, but loosing the force of them, rendering them not binding, ...

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Again, Paul knew full well the whole meaning of keeping the Law perfectly or failing at an iota and thus the whole.

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true..

all....




Deut 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.





Exodus 24:3 Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the rules. And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words that the LORD has spoken we will do.”


Leviticus 26:15
if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant,

Josh 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it.




Deut 28:15 “But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.



Deut 28:58 “If you are not careful to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God,


Neh 10:29 join with their brothers, their nobles, and enter into a curse and an oath to walk in God's Law that was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord and his rules and his statutes.


Ex 24:7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.”

netzarim said:

None of these verses talk about keeping them perfectly. I contend that keeping them diligently is keeping them.

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ok to break the cov?

Leviticus 26:15
if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant,



..sounds like perfection...

seeingeyes said:

I missed the part where Netzarim denied the saving work of Christ. Perhaps you could quote that?

Or perhaps stop threatening people who call on Jesus with hellfire?

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It really would help to understand what the Sinai covenant says about itself.

Deut 6: ... And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

That's one choice. Observe the Law perfectly, and it is your righteousness.

The other choice is this.

Phil. 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Like Paul, I would rather not have mine own righteousness which is of the law, but would rather be found in Him though the faith of Christ, of God by faith.

As Habbakuk said, the just shall live by faith.

Standing Up said:

It really would help to understand what the Sinai covenant says about itself.

Deut 6: ... And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

That's one choice. Observe the Law perfectly, and it is your righteousness.

The other choice is this.

Phil. 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Like Paul, I would rather not have mine own righteousness which is of the law, but would rather be found in Him though the faith of Christ, of God by faith.

As Habbakuk said, the just shall live by faith.

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Habbakuk said the righteous shall live by his faithfulness.

YHWH commands diligent (Ex 15:26, Lev 10:16, Deu 4:9, 6:7, 6:17, 11:13, 11:22, 13:14, 17:4, 24:8, 28:1, Jos 22:5, Ezr 7:23, Jer 12:16, 17:24, Zec 6:15, 1Pe 1:10, 2Pe 3:14, Psa 119:4, etc.), not perfect obedience.

netzarim said:

I'd rather tell people to imitate Messiah - not me (unless I'm claiming to be perfect).

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Jesus taught the disciples to lead by example. :shrug:

"And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Mark 10)

seeingeyes said:

Jesus taught the disciples to lead by example. :shrug:

"And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Mark 10)

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Yes, lead by example, not by command as a lord

Koakku said:

It's pretty obvious that if Paul wasn't in the scriptures there will be a massive change in the understanding of the gospel and Christian living; so, what do you make of the people who denounce Paul? They claim that there was many errors in the passages he partaken in the bible and to the others that claim that he was a false apostle and what is your take on Paul?

To back-track. Recently I've got into a small discussion or a light-debate with someone about the law and the teachings of Paul. Basically this person has said that we are to follow the Ten Commandments and that there is no "new law" and that the "old law hasn't been done away with" as Paul and the writer of Hebrews stated against. This person has also claimed that Paul had no right to change anything written in Scriptures and then this person has also claimed that Paul was a follower of the original law. These are some notable quotes from the person: "Paul isn't my Deity. He didn't try to be either." "The problem is with translation and traditions of men. They sucked me in, too, for a long time. If you will get online and research the ways language translations and traditions of men are twisting Paul's words, you will, I believe, learn a lot."

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I haven't been on this Forum long, but I grew up within the Christian community, at the beginning, in the 70s and coming back to 'debates raging' here on CF, it's the same ole' same ole, to my mind:

There are a few who try to sort out what we come across that seems contradictory in the various books, especially if it's what Jesus said vs. what, say, Paul wrote in his epistles. And we're really trying to live Jesus' Good News, and where Paul's example and words, instructions seem to support what Jesus said, we're cool. Then there are times when Paul seems to say something that is at odds with the very core of Jesus's teachings or 'life as example' like Paul exhorting us to obey the law (you probably know the passages about obey the law, you have nothing to fear if you're doing right (gist), vs. Jesus saying, 'Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's," and He told us to 'Love God with all our heart, mind, soul, strength' and 'Our neighbor as ourselves', and also, that He came to 'fulfill' (fill up' the Law, not to do away with it... And further, He had to ask for a coin, having none of his own, to make a point about what Caesar gets...

It goes on and on...

But what I pray (ask, listen to), and what I read, again and again, through Jesus' actions; what angered Him; when He cried, and how He died, rose again, and so on... When I humbly come to God and stuttering, often I stutter, Please help me live, today, what you taught; please help me to obey God, today; please help me be an active member, to 'be' a member of your Body here on Earth, today...

Well, all debate falls away as what Blaise Pascal called 'diversion'.

I mean that the Fruits of the Spirit are not at odds with what Jesus taught; they are evidence of our obedience; the outcome of our Regeneration; what we will be known by...

And so when I pray 'please give me what I need, and You, God, know what that is...' I just don't have any problem trying to study this passage 'vs' that one, or Jesus 'vs' Paul, or the 'will' to get into debates with anyone at all:

I bake from scratch for my husband; I make a CD list to burn gospel songs for my brothers and sisters in Christ'; I make sure the elderly neighbor knows I still have his key (for when he locks himself out again); I feel tired and remind myself, 'go slow, it's OK, no race' when I feel that I may not 'get enough done' (enough by whose standards? If I pray, and I did, and God and I have our wills aligned, as I can tell is so by the peace I feel when I am typing up a recipe, bringing medicine to a neighbor, taking a brief walk before coming back home to continue doing the next thing that needs doing...',

well, I don't fall for the 'debate' trap, you know, 'oh, that Paul, he was always trying to put women down', or 'Jesus didn't expect us to live the Sermon on the Mount NOW, that's for after...'

It doesn't matter, the list is endless, the ways of diversion limited only by individual (and group) imagination.

***

I'm reading Frank Sheed's Theology for Beginners, and I like his 'Will, Intellect, Imagination' and how they interplay in our lives:

We are each limited not only by how much will, intellect and imagination we have but to what end we put them to use, rather than allowing them to push us:

Gentleness
Love
Generosity
Joy
Self-discipline

And on and on, I grow, as I go to Jesus' Good News, to my Heavenly Father with Humility, into the Bible looking not to avoid obeying but what Jesus told me obeying God looked like, and He told us to 'pick up our cross and follow Him' and all over the Gospels, Jesus is DOING and praying and meditating and being tempted and SERVING and OBEYING his Abba:

Why, Jesus, asked, do you call me good? Only my Heavenly Father is good.

***

This day is almost over, and regardless of what translation I go to, the passage in Matthew reads 'enough' the same: The trouble I got into today was sufficient for this day.'

I'm grateful that today, and this is the only day Jesus told me to be concerned with: This day?

I did my best to be doing the sorts of things I would not feel ashamed of if today were the day of Jesus' return. I 'watched', and it's been a full and good kind of tiring day.

Tomorrow?

Jesus told me not to worry about tomorrow, so here is a song whose 'sound' comes from my hillbilly roots, and whose meaning comes right from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, and Paul echoes it in 1 Corinthians chapter 13, the whole chapter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om69zHwWO1Y

~ Carolyn

I must say 33 books sounds better, it's a Godly number. I always wondered why there are 66, 6 is the number of man, you know, 666, it must be bad.
How can one know if Paul was inspired by God? I don't trust that Nicean counsel, I don't even know who they were, what their fruit was, so I'll have to ask God.
If you want to know if someone is a false teacher you have to look at the fruit. I believe Paul not only was sent to the gentiles with a special message, but also to the heathens, the sinners that are not so good that they can keep His commandments.
The fruit is porn addicts, drugaddicts, smokeaddicts, yelling and cursing borderliners, practising homosexuals, sinners, people addicted to sin WHO ACCEPTED JESUS can finally be set free by the revelation God gave through Paul that our old sinful nature died, we did what we didn't want to do, sin worked it in us (Romans 7), we were under condemnation because of His law we couldn't keep.

Some people don't get what he says, because they're too holy.
1 Timothy 1:15


15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.


Romans 7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law.

And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Romans 8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Galatians 2
For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

netzarim said:

I'd rather tell people to imitate Messiah - not me (unless I'm claiming to be perfect).

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He doesn't claim that and doesn't tell them to imitate him, but to follow his faith and do what he does:

Hebrews 13:7
7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.

Philippians 3


If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,[b] let us be of the same mind.
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

netzarim said:

Yes, lead by example, not by command as a lord

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'Imitate me as I imitate Christ' is a statement of leading by example. Paul did not demonstrate 'do as I say, not as I do' as the Pharisees did. That is true whether you believe he was teaching (and doing) the wrong thing or not.

The thing about Paul is that he is actually a lot less 'quotable' then he is made out to be (by both pro- and anti- Paulites). His arguments are long and winding and cover many bases, in large part because of the format he was writing in. He wasn't trying to 'hit the highlights', he was trying to explain some things to the gatherings of Christians that he helped assemble. He was also quite a snarky fellow. And plucking out soundbites is simply not an effective measure of what he said.

So if we are going to talk about our perspectives of Paul, and how what he said and did compares and contrasts with what Jesus said and did, then I'm all for it.

But if we're just gonna pluck five or ten words out of thirteen full-length letters and claim that he must be the devil in disguise, well, I just have no interest.

Messy said:

He doesn't claim that and doesn't tell them to imitate him, but to follow his faith and do what he does:

Hebrews 13:7
7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.

Philippians 3


If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,[b] let us be of the same mind.
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

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netzarim said:

Habbakuk said the righteous shall live by his faithfulness.

YHWH commands diligent (Ex 15:26, Lev 10:16, Deu 4:9, 6:7, 6:17, 11:13, 11:22, 13:14, 17:4, 24:8, 28:1, Jos 22:5, Ezr 7:23, Jer 12:16, 17:24, Zec 6:15, 1Pe 1:10, 2Pe 3:14, Psa 119:4, etc.), not perfect obedience.

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Diligent to observe all the Law and commands and statutes. And when they/you can't, and that happens daily, there's the sacrificial system to "restore" your next attempt. And the once a year atonement observance, except no one is able to do that since 70ad.

Diligent as you may be, all sin and come short of the glory of God.

The question is what now is the solution to failed diligence? Keep trying to be diligent? Keep seeking your own righteousness that comes from the law (Deut. 6)?

Or like Paul and millions more will you seek to be found in Christ and in His righteousness that comes from grace by faith (NT)?

netzarim said:

Habbakuk said the righteous shall live by his faithfulness.

YHWH commands diligent (Ex 15:26, Lev 10:16, Deu 4:9, 6:7, 6:17, 11:13, 11:22, 13:14, 17:4, 24:8, 28:1, Jos 22:5, Ezr 7:23, Jer 12:16, 17:24, Zec 6:15, 1Pe 1:10, 2Pe 3:14, Psa 119:4, etc.), not perfect obedience.

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Habbakuk was talking about the gospel, not the law, the law is not of faith, but.....the just shall live by faith, a clear juxtaposition shown in gal 3:11-12.

netzarim said:

Habbakuk said the righteous shall live by his faithfulness.

YHWH commands diligent (Ex 15:26, Lev 10:16, Deu 4:9, 6:7, 6:17, 11:13, 11:22, 13:14, 17:4, 24:8, 28:1, Jos 22:5, Ezr 7:23, Jer 12:16, 17:24, Zec 6:15, 1Pe 1:10, 2Pe 3:14, Psa 119:4, etc.), not perfect obedience.

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they sure had to behave!


heb 2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,


no obedience? no perfect, they got????


10:28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

Standing Up said:

Diligent to observe all the Law and commands and statutes. And when they/you can't, and that happens daily, there's the sacrificial system to "restore" your next attempt.
And the once a year atonement observance, except no one is able to do that since 70ad.

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Anyone ever notice the time period that the Romans encompassed Jerusalem in ad70? Pretty ironic I would think....

[edit to add: did Paul also prophecy the pending destruction of Jerusalem?
The Temple in Jerusalem was still standing while he was preaching the Gospel of Jesus.....]

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The Destruction Of JERUSALEM

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem was the feast of the Passover;
and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah!............


The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins;
and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate.........

The vial of divine wrath, which had been so long pouring out upon this devoted City was now emptying, and JERUSALEM, once "a praise in all the earth," and the subject of a thousand prophecies, deprived of' the staff of life, wrapt in flames, and bleeding on every side sunk into utter ruin and desolation...............

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the City on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding..........

.

netzarim said:

Yes, lead by example, not by command as a lord

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Are you remotely saying that Jesus' example is a command for us? If this is the case you're and every one else isn't in compliance. Furthermore it isn't possible.