Those loving terrorists

layer3maniac · Mar 5, 2002

Actually, my favorite part of the Bible is the sermon on the mount. I am, however, quite fond quoting 2 Kings 21:8-16 to seriously deluded people who think that the Jews are "God's chosen people" and currently have some "God given" right to the land. You make references to remnants being saved. 144,000 at the end. So what? What does that have to do with the millions of Jews who stole Israel, enslaved and subjugated the Palestinians, and thumb their noses at God's law, international law, and common decency? The answer is - NOTHING!

solo66 man · Mar 5, 2002

The paletinians are muslims. They are the enemy of our God Yahweh. They worship allah, the moon god; a false god. Our Scripture God gave us is strictly Jewish; deny it if you want.
The mulims is strictly Arab; who are not nor were they ever God's chosen people.
Right in the new testament, Paul speaks of the Jews being God's children and that we as gentile Christians are adopted into the family of God.
By the way, Jesus was, is and will always be a Jew, also.

brt28006 · Mar 5, 2002

Originally posted by billhabing
If you are still shaken by the horrifying scenes of September 11, please observe a moment of silence for the 5,000 civilian lives lost in the New York, Washington, DC and Pennsylvania attacks.

While we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. Take another moment to remember how Americans celebrated and cheered in the streets.

Now another 20 minutes of silence for the 200,000 Iranians killed by Iraqi soldiers using weapons and money provided to young Saddam Hussein by the American government before the great eagle turned all its power against Iraq.

Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans killed by troups supported and trained by the CIA....
...

I sure am glad somebody already said all this. (that stuff quoted above)

Okay, now onto Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. I'd just like to say that both men are, in my opinion; twisted, sick, and paranoid individuals who are a cancer to Christianity, and America at large.
How anybody can support them is totally beyond me. How anybody can support them after what they said on the 700 club is just ludicrous.

Next the Muslims. It was said in the conversation between Falwell and Robertson that if the Muslims hated America so much, then why do they want to move here. Easy. I'd imagine that about nine out of every ten, or probably more like 99 out of every hundred, of Muslims are good people who want to live in America because, despite current (and unnecessary) anti-Muslim sentiment, this country is still the land of opportunity.

Falwell also says the anti-Christ will likely be Jewish... now would a man of God say such a thing about who you all say is God's own chosen people?

Islam preaches tolerance, and while I don't have a copy of the Qur'an (still the more proper spelling) here with me now I will say that within the first few chapters it makes it clear to tolerate both Christians and Jews because "whatever the name they worship him by, they praise allah, and all his names are beautiful". Okay, so they say that God is Allah, but still, they are told that Christians and Jews worship Allah, just under different names, and as such they are not to be viewed as infidels. This passage can, in fact, be interpreted to mean that only atheists are to be viewed as infidels.
Furthermore, Jihad, as mentioned in the Qur'an, is not an offensive tool to convert people, but rather a defensive tool to use when others try to harm you or your belief. The purpose of Jihad has been twisted by certain modern arab leaders, unfortunately.

I don't mean to be a bit inflamatory but when dealing with issues like this a person should not force themselves to be softspoken.

solo66 man · Mar 5, 2002

Gee, let's see...America is intolerant and the Muslims are extremely tolerant. HMMM, let me think, maybe I should or perhaps you should move to a muslim country. What do you say? I will meet you there.

Originally posted by brt28006

I sure am glad somebody already said all this. (that stuff quoted above)

Okay, now onto Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. I'd just like to say that both men are, in my opinion; twisted, sick, and paranoid individuals who are a cancer to Christianity, and America at large.
How anybody can support them is totally beyond me. How anybody can support them after what they said on the 700 club is just ludicrous.

Next the Muslims. It was said in the conversation between Falwell and Robertson that if the Muslims hated America so much, then why do they want to move here. Easy. I'd imagine that about nine out of every ten, or probably more like 99 out of every hundred, of Muslims are good people who want to live in America because, despite current (and unnecessary) anti-Muslim sentiment, this country is still the land of opportunity.

Falwell also says the anti-Christ will likely be Jewish... now would a man of God say such a thing about who you all say is God's own chosen people?

Islam preaches tolerance, and while I don't have a copy of the Qur'an (still the more proper spelling) here with me now I will say that within the first few chapters it makes it clear to tolerate both Christians and Jews because "whatever the name they worship him by, they praise allah, and all his names are beautiful". Okay, so they say that God is Allah, but still, they are told that Christians and Jews worship Allah, just under different names, and as such they are not to be viewed as infidels. This passage can, in fact, be interpreted to mean that only atheists are to be viewed as infidels.
Furthermore, Jihad, as mentioned in the Qur'an, is not an offensive tool to convert people, but rather a defensive tool to use when others try to harm you or your belief. The purpose of Jihad has been twisted by certain modern arab leaders, unfortunately.

I don't mean to be a bit inflamatory but when dealing with issues like this a person should not force themselves to be softspoken.

solo66 man · Mar 5, 2002

Some day ...... maybe.

JohnR7 · Mar 5, 2002

They use suicide bombers to kill civilians. The terrorists hide behind women and children. They use suicide bombers to kill civilians.

>>The terrorists hide behind women and children.

No doubt, some of those women are more scary than the terrorists are. Even some of the kids you have to watch out for. I wonder sometimes about the muslims. They say that 5% of the people are criminal and 5% of the youth commit suicide. It looks to me like they just take their problem people and turn them on whoever they decide is their enemy. That way they do not have to deal with criminals and suicidal youth. They let their enemy deal with them.

There is no indication in my Bible that God favors one nation or one people over another. From what I can tell, God will save just as many muslims as he will christians. That is to say just as many muslims will accept Jesus as their lord as so called christians will.

brt28006 · Mar 5, 2002

Originally posted by solo66 man
Gee, let's see...America is intolerant and the Muslims are extremely tolerant. HMMM, let me think, maybe I should or perhaps you should move to a muslim country. What do you say? I will meet you there.

I never expressly said that it was a black and white situation that America was intolerant and Islam is extremely tolerant. I only said that the Qur'an preaches tolerance.

Second, while neither Christian nor Jewish myself, I have orthodox Jewish relative living on a kabutz (or however you spell it) in Israel. They don't understand what the Jews and Muslims are fighting about and have said in letters that they'd sooner share holy sites with Muslims than kill them, convert them, or otherwise degrade them.

I believe America to be one of the most tolerant nations in the world, but unfortunately that isn't saying much anymore.
Let's look at the situation from a microcosm perspective, this forum. 90% or more of all the threads on these forums display gross intolerance of other people's beliefs. Sometimes, it's just a misunderstanding of others' systems, other times it's just straight up bigotry. Many of you here seem to believe that non-Christians are in need of a savior. Maybe so, but that doesn't mean that you should make other people seem like inferiors because of it.

You yourself, solo66, said one of the more bothersome (to me, anyways) statements regarding Islam right here on this thread.

Originally posted by solo66 man
The paletinians are muslims. They are the enemy of our God Yahweh. They worship allah, the moon god; a false god. Our Scripture God gave us is strictly Jewish; deny it if you want.
The mulims [are] strictly Arab; who are not nor were they ever God's chosen people.
Right in the new testament, Paul speaks of the Jews being God's children and that we as gentile Christians are adopted into the family of God.
By the way, Jesus was, is and will always be a Jew, also.

Calling an entire group of people an enemy of your God is quite an accusation. Besides, if we did indeed all come from Adam and Eve, why should only the Jews be God's chosen people? That doesn't really have anything to do with this thread though.

InspectorVol · Mar 5, 2002

Gen. 16: [11] And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
[12] And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

They act the way God said they would.

brt28006 · Mar 5, 2002

That has got to be the most irrelevant scripture claim I've heard recently. I'm aware that that is what the verse said, but since Islam didn't come about until several hundred years after Christ, and the story of Ishmael would be about 5,500 years old, there is absolutely no connection.

InspectorVol · Mar 5, 2002

Enlighten me then. Why does it not apply?

VOW · Mar 5, 2002

To JohnR7:

There is no indication in my Bible that God favors one nation or one people over another.

Huh?

The Jews are God's CHOSEN PEOPLE. It is through the Jewish Messiah that Gentiles are "adopted" into the family of the Chosen People.

To brt28006:

That has got to be the most unsubstantiated scripture claim I've heard recently. I'm aware that that is what the verse said, but since Islam didn't come about until several hundred years after Christ, and the story of Ishmael would be about 5,500 years old, there is absolutely no connection.

Uhhhhhhhhhh, not quite...

After Isaac was born, Sarah made Abraham turn out Hagar and Ishmael. Hagar wandered in the wilderness, alone, and thought that she and her son would die. God heard Ishmael's cries, and an angel came to Hagar, saying that God would make of him a great nation. Remember, God promised Abraham that his descendants would number greater than the stars in the sky. He didn't specify the descendants would only be Abraham's LEGITIMATE children! (Go read Genesis, Chapter 21)

Like it or not, folks, it really doesn't matter how you view Islam or the Q'uran. The Jews are God's Chosen People, and so are the Arabs. It isn't our place to point fingers, pass judgment, or cast the first stone. Let GOD sort it out; that's HIS job.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

brt28006 · Mar 5, 2002

Originally posted by VOW

Uhhhhhhhhhh, not quite...

After Isaac was born, Sarah made Abraham turn out Hagar and Ishmael. Hagar wandered in the wilderness, alone, and thought that she and her son would die. God heard Ishmael's cries, and an angel came to Hagar, saying that God would make of him a great nation. Remember, God promised Abraham that his descendants would number greater than the stars in the sky. He didn't specify the descendants would only be Abraham's LEGITIMATE children! (Go read Genesis, Chapter 21)

Like it or not, folks, it really doesn't matter how you view Islam or the Q'uran. The Jews are God's Chosen People, and so are the Arabs. It isn't our place to point fingers, pass judgment, or cast the first stone. Let GOD sort it out; that's HIS job.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

That didn't answer what I said, unless you can present a geneology going from those you mentioned to Muhammed.

JohnR7 · Mar 5, 2002

>>God promised Abraham that his descendants would number greater than the stars in the sky

As the stars in the sky. They did not have telescopes back then, just what the naked eye could see. But If you get out in the middle of the desert away from the city lights, you see a lot of stars.

VOW · Mar 5, 2002

To brt28006:

That didn't answer what I said, unless you can present a geneology going from those you mentioned to Muhammed.

I don't have a geneaology handy on Mohammed, but I base my connection on the ARAB premise that they are descended from Ishmael.

Maybe that isn't the final authority, but then, we Catholics base our priesthood on Apostolic Succession from Peter.

<shrug>

Peace be with you,
~VOW

JohnR7 · Mar 5, 2002

>>I don't have a geneaology handy on Mohammed, but I base my connection on the ARAB premise that they are descended from Ishmael.

After Sarah died, Abraham got married again and had more children. But if you look at the women from Afganstan, they look to me like they are half egyptian and half hebrew.

tom · Mar 5, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
To brt28006:
no one should like terroist on what they do they will be delt and punished for what they do.

I don't have a geneaology handy on Mohammed, but I base my connection on the ARAB premise that they are descended from Ishmael.

Maybe that isn't the final authority, but then, we Catholics base our priesthood on Apostolic Succession from Peter.

<shrug>

Peace be with you,
~VOW

brt28006 · Mar 5, 2002

Originally posted by tom
no one should like terroist on what they do they will be delt and punished for what they do.

I don't believe I ever said I approved of terrorist activities (except for the IRA, but I consider them freedom fighters with really wrong and immoral methods, but that's another story). In fact, I don't believe I ever mentioned terrorists at all.
Terror can come from any ethnicity for any reason, there is no biblical passage telling us to expect it from Islam. We, as rational people, must be prepared from a military and political standpoint to face terror from wherever it may arise, the Bible is irrelevant for this aim, as religion only makes things worse in so many situations regarding terrorism.

sarkazma · Mar 5, 2002

one thing i gotta mention, i am in no way on the terrorists side here, but i hate it when people start critisising osama bin laden, saying hes cowardly because he sends his suicide bombers out to do the dirty work while he just sits there... well... what do you think pres. bush is doing right now?

AGAIN, not promoting terrorism in anyway, but i just think that remark is just plain ignorant.

VOW · Mar 5, 2002

The Palestinian problem isn't going to be solved with heated words in a message board thread. It's a very complex issue, with both sides claiming the land with valid arguments. You have to back up several steps and look at the whole picture.

FACT: The Canaanite people were the original residents of Israel. God led Moses and His People from Egypt, and the Israelites basically booted out the Canaanites.

FACT: The Jews had a hard time hanging onto the land after God gave them the deed. They were constantly screwing up, and God would "punish" them with giant conquering armies. Every so often they would be allowed to return.

FACT: Palestine wasn't even held by the Jews when Jesus was there. It was Roman territory. And when the temple was destroyed in AD 70 (I hope I have my dates right, I'm still bruised from the last whuppin I got from Wolseley) once again the Jews were scattered.

FACT: The Palestinians were allowed to occupy the land under British rule. After the end of WWII and millions of displaced Jews wanted to leave Europe, the US pressured Great Britain to allow the Jews to return to their "homeland." (Read "Exodus" by Leon Uris!) The Palestinians were in NO MOOD to feel sorry for the Jews, they just felt like they had been wrongly evicted.

FACT: The new Israeli government made an attempt to peacefully co-exist with the Palestinians, but the leaders encouraged the people to move from Israel and settle into nearby Arab countries. The neighbors were not happy with their forced-upon visitors. The leaders kept the misplaced Palestinians in "relocation camps" indefinitely, instead of allowing the people to find new homes, and resume their lives. In the camps, there was crowding, poor sanitation, lack of education for the children, sickness, and poverty. The precursor to the PLO sent teachers into the camps to teach the youth about the "horrible Jews" who had forced these conditions upon them, and fed the hatred until it festered.

FACT: Jerusalem is a divided city, held as holy by three major religions. After the Six-Day war, the Israeli army captured all of Jerusalem and also the "West Bank Territory." The Palestinians considered this to be fuel to the burning hatred they had already developed. Then the Israelis had the "audacity" to develop this conquered land, building homes and businesses and allowing even MORE Jews into the area.

FACT: The Palestinians feel like they have been kicked out of their homes ever since Abraham told Hagar and Ishmael to take a hike.

Now, I abhor the violence and the bloodshed and upheaval which has been going on in Israel for centuries. But I also see that this is a battle that is fought by outside forces pulling the marionette strings, as well as the combatants and innocents involved.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

solo66 man · Mar 6, 2002

Interesting you mention the Six Day War. If the Jews were not God's people, they would have been crushed. But won a war mounted against them by several Arab/Muslim nations to push them by into the sea, in just six days.
Praise Yahweh.

Those loving terrorists

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