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As I said, if they start going after primary sources (after someone explains to them what those are) I will be right there with you. As for now, don't give these drooling monosyllabic vandals that kind of credit.Give it time. That which is inconceivable this week will be normal in weeks to come.
Thats what it is to be human. Sometimes that fact is negative; but a great many times it is positive. Most in the 1700's couldn't imagine an economy and culture without slavery. What was inconceivable is now normal.Give it time. That which is inconceivable this week will be normal in weeks to come.
Is it still Soros or has he been displaced by some other big bad at this point?Oh but it's not who's on the street but who is behind them. But pretty sure you know that.
What do you mean "our" civilization? Do you mean American? Conservative? ???
They will pull down a few good statues. but, most people are very reasonable and will not support the damage of significant monuments--thinking of Jefferson and Lincoln in D.C. That would be tragic and the park service will not let that happen.
Gotcha! I don't see any of these protestors converting to Eastern ideals. They tend to remain capitalists when entering adulthood (the left in general) and they sure love the prosperity supplied by free markets like the iPhone and Honda.Western.
First: I was making a distinction between local governments and the Federal Park service. My point was that some monuments are more valued--like those in D.C. People would like to destroy them; but the I am hopeful that the government will stop it from happening.This statue was, I believe, in front of a high school....so I don't think the park service is going to do anything about it.
Secondly, these people who are pulling down statues are slandering anyone who opposes them as racist. A lot of politicians are too afraid of being labeled racist by the mob to do anything about it.
Thirdly, what makes you think this won't keep happening? I get that a lot of people made post hoc arguments about why the statues were being torn down to justify people tearing them down....but you have no idea what the thought processes or rationale of the mob is.
For all you know, they could be targeting the statues of any white person born before 1950.
Thomas Jefferson wrote that all men are created equal, a sentiment he obviously didn’t believe in considering he enslaved his own children.
But Jefferson argued that slavery should be abolished in his only published book, Notes on the State of Virginia. He was arguably progressive for his time.At the time Jefferson wrote those words only white men held property and power. African Americans, Native Americans and all women were simply excluded.
Stuff like this was bound to escalate, and it will only escalate further in the future. While I personally find it kind of sad, as someone who is not African American I can sort of understand their distaste with such statues. As a kid when we were learning about George Washington and how much a hero he was, I always thought it was awkward for the few black kids in the class. George Washington might look down lovingly at us white kids from the clouds, but in a black kid's mind he would probably look in disgust at the few black kids in class. Lol.
I don't know, I guess I'm sort of in the mixed feelings camp regarding this. Just something that is going to happen as the racial demographics change.
Some context - Jefferson high school is “the” black school in Portland. So it’s particularly uncomfortable for those black students and their families that their school is named after a slaveholder.Stuff like this was bound to escalate, and it will only escalate further in the future. While I personally find it kind of sad, as someone who is not African American I can sort of understand their distaste with such statues. As a kid when we were learning about George Washington and how much a hero he was, I always thought it was awkward for the few black kids in the class. George Washington might look down lovingly at us white kids from the clouds, but in a black kid's mind he would probably look in disgust at the few black kids in class. Lol.
I don't know, I guess I'm sort of in the mixed feelings camp regarding this. Just something that is going to happen as the racial demographics change.
I think the problem is that tearing down statues endorses a very one sided view of history. It reduces a complex figure like Thomas Jefferson to a very one dimensional character....a slave owner.
Thomas Jefferson did a lot more than own slaves though...he was a brilliant polymath who had a key role in designing the very foundation of our society. I don't know how someone can reasonably assert that in spite of his massive contributions to the freedoms that we all enjoy today, he shouldn't be memorialized with a statue because he owned slaves.
It's a ridiculously ignorant position.
That's a strong point.Monuments to an individual tend to lead to a one demential positive view of their subject as they literally put them and their good deeds on a pedestal. The do not tend to leave a great deal of room for nuance by their nature.
I think it’s quite important that we finally reckon, in a real way, with the fact that so many of our “founding fathers” did some atrocious things.
Sally Hemings was Jeffersons slave with whom he had several children. He freed all of them upon his death--he didn't have to. He did not free Sally however. This is where people begin to disagree. One perspective was that he cared deeply for Sally and freeing her would send her into the world penniless in old age--that Jefferson ensured she would remain at Monticello and have security. However, Like you said, no slave can actually consent. She was a Slave and Jefferson failed to ever free her--many see this as an irredeemable offense.
Sallys children were young enough to seek a better life as free men and women. I know you said your post wasn't about Sally Hemings, but it is part of the story whether it was in your thoughts when posting. I am just providing a bit of background and context. I don't mean to slam you point in any way--just keep the conversation going. My initial point was that it's not as simple as Jefferson had slaves--he's a bad guy.
Personally, I wouldn't destroy them. I think both sides go to far. But I have no attachments to statues or flags. What can you say, when the United States is nothing more, than stolen land. The history of this country is nothing to be proud of. I think people shouldn't try to destroy all the evil or good history.Thomas Jefferson statue toppled in Oregon
I remember back when the whole "let's destroy these statues" thing started. I remember having discussions on here where I asked what people would support if it happened to Jefferson or Lincoln.
I was told I was being irrational. I was told they were only going after statues that were set up by people wanting to celebrate the Confederacy. I was told that it was all about the reason why the statue was put up....not the statue itself.
It turns out I was right, and others didn't know what they were talking about. Thoughts?
At the time Jefferson wrote those words only white men held property and power. African Americans, Native Americans and all women were simply excluded.
And? Is that a reason why he shouldn't have a statue?
Do you think it makes sense for a majority black school to be named after a slaveholder? And to pass by his statue everyday on their way in to school? It seems a bit much to me.Acknowledge and recognize - yes. Our shared understanding of history needs to include all perspectives. However, I do not agree with simply disposing of statues based on a binary view of our founders. They acted and lived in the context of their time. They should be evaluated as such. After all, it was the words to Jefferson that ultimately led to "everyone" is created equal - recognizing that we still have a ways to go...
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