this was in our bulletin on sunday - after your thoughts on it.

[erin74]

Okay - I posted this over at the 'other' site, but nobody has answered, so I thought I'd try here as well.

In our 'pew sheet', bulletin, notices - whatever you want to call it, there is always a bit of a stuff in the middle that may be theological in nature, a letter from a missionary, promoting an organisation or something like that. This week there was a couple of things. The first was a missionary letter. The second was promoting 30 days of prayer for Islam to coincide with Ramadan, in the hopes of conversions from within that faith. The third was the following. I'll type it out (actually I found it online instead - purpose driven life website), cause I really wand to hear what people think.

Friend or Foe? by John Fischer

Bob is a regular devotional reader who writes me frequently. What makes him unique is that he is a Christian who is attending classes at a Buddhist temple. Now some Christians might find this impossible to do, but it really depends on your worldview.

A person with a worldview that believes that Christians are right and everyone else is wrong would not be able to understand how a person could do this, or why one would even want to. A person with a worldview that believes that all truth is embodied in Christ Jesus, but not exclusively held by Him, might see this differently. God has not locked up His truth inside the church where no one else can get it.

Theologians call it common grace – that part of truth and beauty that God shares with everyone, whatever their faith or lack of it. In reality, it’s the only way we can explain the world the way it is. Christians are not the only good people on the earth. Indeed there are many good people in the world who are not Christians, as well as Christians who are not very good.

Bob wrote recently: “One of my classmates went on a tirade when he first learned that I am a Christian. We are now friends. He is still a Buddhist and I am still a Christian, but he says gentler things about Christians now. I can't help saying ‘gentle things’ about Buddhists. It's something that many Christians need to learn. I guess our North American society often isn't very gentle.”

Now you can see a reason for this. Bob is finding among his Buddhist friends, Christian traits that are culturally lacking in our western society. And it also looks like Bob has been an influence on at least one of his Buddhist friends who looks at Christianity differently now because of him.

Am I suggesting that we all become Buddhists? Of course not. But I am suggesting we could be more open to truth outside of only what we can control. We might be able to share Christ with more people if we thought differently about this. One way to think about it would be this: The world is not wrong as much as it is lost.

It’s a mindset that colors how we treat people. People we think are wrong need to be set straight; people we think are lost need to be found and brought home. If you were not a Christian, whom would you rather have as a friend, someone out to set you straight, or someone out to find you and bring you home?

“Today salvation has come to this house… For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.” Luke 19:10

Ok for a bit of context. DH is the assistant. This was put in by his boss, the vicar. There has been a history of animosity between some congregation members and the vicar that predates our arrival by a few years. This has been a little better in the time we have been here, but there are still some members of the congregation that have difficulty attributing to him godly motives, or accepting anything from him really. We joined a bible study where there were quite a few people like this.

Last night at bible study one of the men brough this up, but nobody else had read it. He didn't have it with him. He hadn't read the entire thing, but after the first paragraph has assumed that the minister is pushing pluralism (is that the right terminology). This makes no sense contextually as he is promoting prayer and evangelism to Muslims, and has recently preached contrary to this.

So - what do you think about the article? How do we address these members of the bible study? How do we supporting the vicar as dh's boss and deal with this one?

While I do have some issues with this article, I think the reason it was placed was that the vicar was trying to promote gentle, friendship evangelism, as opposed to turn or burn evangelism. ie the phrase about not setting people straight but bringing them home. I guess warding off judgementalism, and promoting love. But what about the rest of the article????

Ok - I'll stop raving now - you have enough context I hope.

erin

 

[StAnselm]

Ugh!

First of all, I have problems with the idea of common grace - including the idea that a Buddhist can exhibit Christian traits. Obviously I have a problem with the idea that "God has not locked up His truth inside the church where no one else can get it." There's a sense in which that might be true, but I don't think that's the sense in which it is used here.

The article would look very different if you deleted the second paragraph - but even then... yep, I definitely have sympathy with the people at your bible study. It certainly looks pluralist.

OK, how then to deal with it. Can you use it as a starting point for discussion? That is ask, what do we disagree with in it? What do agree with in it? [I'd ask those two questions in that order.] What can we learn from it? What must we reject in it?

To take it further - what are Bob's opportunities? What dangers is he facing?

Yeah, used that way the article can be very useful. If I was leading the study group I'd probably leave what we were doing for a week, and devote a night to going through this.

 

[Proeliator]

Id honestly say go to the Vicars boss

 

[JJB]

It's odd, but I see it differently. I see the article as saying look for common ground among people of other faith, and then use that common ground to share the gospel.

I think there can be bits of God's truth in other belief systems, but they're not complete. Things as simple as it's not ok to kill. Or even just prayer.

Going to a buddhist temple, isn't that what we ask our friends to do? Come to church with us? Sometimes we have to be willing to say yes to their invitation before they will in return say yes to our invitation to come and hear. I have experienced that in my own life. Is our faith so weak that hearing of another person's faith will devestate our own? What is all the talk of perseverance of the saints? God will keep us. Go with another Christian, don't go alone.

Does any of that make sense? I think the letter is part of evangelizing. I don't see it as pluralism, but maybe I just picked and chose bits that rang in my heart.

So, sure, go ahead and discuss all aspects of the printed bit in the bulletin. Maybe someone else will see it the way I see it.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I'd say there is a poor understanding of theology and Biblical truth as well as having a heaping helping of religious political correctness thrown in.

For instance, take this comment;

"Christians are not the only good people on the earth. Indeed there are many good people in the world who are not Christians, as well as Christians who are not very good."

If one has a firm understanding of Biblical truth and the resulting theology, then one knows that prior to regeneration, there is none that is "good", and cannot please God, for apart from faith one cannot please God in any way.

I am assuming that the speaker here is using the human definition of "good", which is always a wrong route to take, for that is the route of relativism.

What matters is God's definition of "good".

 

[erin74]

It's odd, but I see it differently. I see the article as saying look for common ground among people of other faith, and then use that common ground to share the gospel.

I think there can be bits of God's truth in other belief systems, but they're not complete. Things as simple as it's not ok to kill. Or even just prayer.

Going to a buddhist temple, isn't that what we ask our friends to do? Come to church with us? Sometimes we have to be willing to say yes to their invitation before they will in return say yes to our invitation to come and hear. I have experienced that in my own life. Is our faith so weak that hearing of another person's faith will devestate our own? What is all the talk of perseverance of the saints? God will keep us. Go with another Christian, don't go alone.

Does any of that make sense? I think the letter is part of evangelizing. I don't see it as pluralism, but maybe I just picked and chose bits that rang in my heart.

So, sure, go ahead and discuss all aspects of the printed bit in the bulletin. Maybe someone else will see it the way I see it.

yeah I'm pretty sure this is where the vicar was coming from. But I think there was enough strange stuff at the beginning to confuse people into thinking it is a pluralistic view.

 

[Jon_]

I originally posted this over at Shadrach's site (reformedgrace.org), but not everyone visits there, yet. I'll repost it here, too.

That article by Fischer is flat-out wrong. There is no truth outside of the word of God. The Buddhists do not exhibit anything remotely related to "common grace." He ought to learn his terms, but I suppose if he's going to use it so irresponsibly that is too tall an order to ask. His observation that we can sometimes find "truth" or "virtue" outside of the church and outside of the Bible is only valid insofar as he refers to God's restraint on the hearts of the wicked. But to infer that we should act like the heathen in any way at all is terrible. We shouldn't act like the heathen, we should act like the Scriptures tell us to act! The Bible alone is the word of God and is the sole rule of faith for those who profess the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I guess it is asking too much for Fisher to know the Bible too, though. He says that Christians aren't the only good people in the world. Yes, they are. Does he know so little of the Scriptures?

(Ps. 14:3 AV) They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
​

Unregenerate man does nothing good, nothing at all. Buddhists are evil God-hating heathen that are storing up wrath unto their damnation unless they should turn from their wickedness and believe in Christ Jesus. Looking to these appalling sinful and evil creatures as a basis for moral virtue amounts to an implicit denial of the Bible as the sole teacher of morality. He also shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the Gospel when he says:

People we think are wrong need to be set straight; people we think are lost need to be found and brought home. If you were not a Christian, whom would you rather have as a friend, someone out to set you straight, or someone out to find you and bring you home? (Fischer)
​

Setting someone straight and bringing them home are the same thing! Precisely what is wrong with humanity is it needs to be straightened out! All men are wicked to the core and only pursue sin. Straightening them out is bringing them home to the Lord who alone can regenerate and sanctify them.

That article was so full of nonsense. Someone should slap Fischer for writing something so obviously ignorant. People with his lack of understanding of the word of God have no business teaching anyone else anything! Moreover, whoever put that in your bulletin deserves to be censured.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

It's odd, but I see it differently. I see the article as saying look for common ground among people of other faith, and then use that common ground to share the gospel.

I think there can be bits of God's truth in other belief systems, but they're not complete. Things as simple as it's not ok to kill. Or even just prayer.

Going to a buddhist temple, isn't that what we ask our friends to do? Come to church with us? Sometimes we have to be willing to say yes to their invitation before they will in return say yes to our invitation to come and hear. I have experienced that in my own life. Is our faith so weak that hearing of another person's faith will devestate our own? What is all the talk of perseverance of the saints? God will keep us. Go with another Christian, don't go alone.

Does any of that make sense? I think the letter is part of evangelizing. I don't see it as pluralism, but maybe I just picked and chose bits that rang in my heart.

So, sure, go ahead and discuss all aspects of the printed bit in the bulletin. Maybe someone else will see it the way I see it.

This is probably how he meant it to be read. I think you understood the spirit of what he wrote very well, Julie. He was trying to communicate that sharing love and gentleness and showing Christian virtue is important. It certainly is. But it is not our only calling.

My issue with what Fischer wrote is that he said it in all the wrong ways and used all the wrong assumptions. His idea was probably right, but everything else was just wrong. The biggest danger is that the way he put it has the potential to cause grave confusion on the part of readers. I think this is in part evidenced by question of pluralism inherent in what he wrote. I didn't see anything pluralistic, but I did see plenty of stupidity.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[reformedfan]

Kuiper sez some women in India still (at the time the book was written) would toss their beebee into the river when they feel sad over some sin they committed, hence they are aware of the concept of the death of a son to pay for the sins of someone else, would this be common grace as well? *smirks*

I wonder what would happen if this "Christian" student of Buddah wanted to go hang out with them? (his wife should prolly keep the chilluns home from that "mission trip", eh?)

 

[JJB]

yeah I'm pretty sure this is where the vicar was coming from. But I think there was enough strange stuff at the beginning to confuse people into thinking it is a pluralistic view.

Well, God is not the God of confusion. If it is confusing people then it needs to be dealt with and swiftly.

 

[erin74]

Well dh spoke to his boss. His aim was to challenge people to think outside their comfort zone when it came to evangelism. He certainly was not trying to condone pluralism.

However, given the animosity felt by some of the members of the bible study already, I think dh may bring it up at bible study again, and talk through it. They're still not going to like it much, and that's fine, but they need to recognise the motives of the vicar were not bad.

 

[JJB]

Lord, please iron out this situation at Erin and her husband's church. Bring your light and wisdom into all discussions. May it do nothing but bring Glory to you.

In Jesus name,
Amen

 

[erin74]

Lord, please iron out this situation at Erin and her husband's church. Bring your light and wisdom into all discussions. May it do nothing but bring Glory to you.

In Jesus name,
Amen

thank you

 

[Erinwilcox]

A person with a worldview that believes that Christians are right and everyone else is wrong would not be able to understand how a person could do this, or why one would even want to.
But I am suggesting we could be more open to truth outside of only what we can control. We might be able to share Christ with more people if we thought differently about this. One way to think about it would be this: The world is not wrong as much as it is lost

Here are my thoughts. If we believe that Jesus was the "Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6, then isn't that like saying that Christians are the ones who are right (since they will be the ones going to heaven) and that all other religions are wrong (since they'll be going to hell)? Who cares whether or not other religions have some elements of truth in them (like not killing, etc). The point is that the little truth that they have isn't going to save them or get them to heaven. Are you going to tell everyone that their religions are good, but that yours is better? Do you believe that their religions are good? Obviously they can't be if they're sending people to hell! Maybe I took this entirely the wrong way, but that is the way that it seems to me.

 

[erin74]

Well we had a discussion about it at bible study. I think everyone was able to see the motive behind it was good and not bad. But we certainly were all in agreement that it wasn't the best way of expressing it, and that there were some theological problems in the beginning of it.

It also gave us an opportunity to discuss the role of the minister and the role of the members of the church, and in this case bible study, when it comes to equipping teh congregation theologically. I have long argued that it is not the sole responsibility of the minister. This is a group of people with excellent bible knowledge, and teaching skills, and yet they meet together while my husband and one other guy try to teach all the young guys in teh church (ie our age). The teenage kids of our bible study all have an excellent grasp of the scriptures, but the people our age are really washed around a bit by teaching. So we challenged our bible study to think about how they can each be involved in some way in equipping the next generation, so that the church remains firm in it's teaching.

See we can be thankful for bad teaching - it gives opportunity for good teachign, and for encouraging more good teaching!

 

[Jon_]

See we can be thankful for bad teaching - it gives opportunity for good teachign, and for encouraging more good teaching!

That's exactly what I was hoping any praying for! God can and will frequently use things like this to increase our understanding. I'm glad to hear that you had the opportunity to discuss the article.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[StAnselm]

Yeah, that's great news! What a wonderful outcome...