This Proverb is Mary?

[Uphill Battle]

We don't need permission to commune another Christian.

The Creed is perfectly on the meaning of Communion of Saints.

Any one who does not belive that they can ask other christians to pray with and for them, including the Saints is not holding to the full definition of the Communion of Saints and is short changing themselves.

As I have posted ealrlier there is one only communion of Saints.

Peace

mmmhmmm.

I just think that there IS a difference between talking with a contempory, and someone long dead. I won't quibble with you about it, I know they are alive in heaven. Their ability to speak to you, however, has ended on death. I for one, would think you would find much more reference of the apostles giving entreaty to a departed saint, if it were common practice. You don't find a whisper of it. You find encouragement for those who are distraught over their loved ones being dead... that they will live again, and that they are not truly dead, however, no mention of exhortation to speak with them at all.

Beyond that, you still have the problem of what attributes those departed saints would have to have to listen to prayers from the earth, some form of omnipresence, to be sure, as people would be praying to them globally, etc...

 

[lionroar0]

I just think that there IS a difference between talking with a contempory, and someone long dead. I won't quibble with you about it, I know they are alive in heaven. Their ability to speak to you, however, has ended on death. I for one, would think you would find much more reference of the apostles giving entreaty to a departed saint, if it were common practice. You don't find a whisper of it. You find encouragement for those who are distraught over their loved ones being dead... that they will live again, and that they are not truly dead, however, no mention of exhortation to speak with them at all.

You find won't any of the apostles talking about the Trinity either but I won't quibble about it. You don't find a whisper about it in the Scriptures. There is no exortation about the God the father, Son and the Holy Spirit being one essence and three distinc persons.

Beyond that, you still have the problem of what attributes those departed saints would have to have to listen to prayers from the earth, some form of omnipresence, to be sure, as people would be praying to them globally, etc...

You still have the problem of the Apostles never mentioning the Trinity and attributing to it the attributes of God.

Peace

 

[Uphill Battle]

You find won't any of the apostles talking about the Trinity either but I won't quibble about it. You don't find a whisper about it in the Scriptures. There is no exortation about the God the father, Son and the Holy Spirit being one essence and three distinc persons.



You still have the problem of the Apostles never mentioning the Trinity and attributing to it the attributes of God.

Peace

Baloney.

That is the most disreputable argument forwarded whenever anyone asks why something isn't found in scripture. The trinity is in there. You're playing word games, not presenting an argument. you use this constantly, time to pick a new pet argument.

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and ofthe Son and ofthe Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Corinthians 13:14].
To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [1 Peter 1:1-2].
​

Here are three passages in Scripture, one on the lips of Jesus, and the other two from leading apostles, each bringing together the three Persons of the Godhead in an unmistakable way. But these are only a sampling of other similar passages. Among others are the following: Romans 14:17-18; 15:16;
1 Corinthians 2:2-5; 6:11; 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18-22; 3:14-19; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:6-8; 1Thessalonians 1:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Titus 3:4-6.

http://www.wcg.org/lit/God/trinitybible.htm

now, lets play the same game!

post me some references of people praying to dead saints in the bible.

 

[lionroar0]

Baloney.

That is the most disreputable argument forwarded whenever anyone asks why something isn't found in scripture. The trinity is in there. You're playing word games, not presenting an argument. you use this constantly, time to pick a new pet argument.

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and ofthe Son and ofthe Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Corinthians 13:14].
To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [1 Peter 1:1-2].
​

Here are three passages in Scripture, one on the lips of Jesus, and the other two from leading apostles, each bringing together the three Persons of the Godhead in an unmistakable way. But these are only a sampling of other similar passages. Among others are the following: Romans 14:17-18; 15:16;
1 Corinthians 2:2-5; 6:11; 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18-22; 3:14-19; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:6-8; 1Thessalonians 1:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Titus 3:4-6.

http://www.wcg.org/lit/God/trinitybible.htm

now, lets play the same game!

post me some references of people praying to dead saints in the bible.

Post me a verse from the Bible stating that the Trinity is three disctinc and co-equal persons but yet of the same undivisisable essence.

Can't be done.

Just as I can't post a verse from the Bible to satisfy your criteria in regards to the Communion of Saints.

Both were explecitly defined by councils and will not be found in Scripture under your criteria. Any deviation of the true meaning of the Communion of Saints is a watered down Christianity.

you use this constantly, time to pick a new pet argument.

None of those verses define the Trinity.

Peace

 

[Uphill Battle]

Post me a verse from the Bible stating that the Trinity is three disctinc and co-equal persons but yet of the same undivisisable essence.

ah, so you expect that we should be able to come up with a verse that states the textbook version? please. the doctrinal statement regarding the trinity is in regards to what is found in scripture, not the other way around.

Can't be done.

nor do I need it to be. There is more than enough scripture listed that you can figure it out with some scholarship. Else, how is the doctrinal statement regarding the Trinity even arrived at? thin air? oh, well... perhaps, seeing as it isn't that hard to teach something that comes from thin air.

Just as I can't post a verse from the Bible to satisfy your criteria in regards to the Communion of Saints.

the only criteria is something that even REMOTELY suggests it. but you have nothing. I don't need a verse that says "thou shalt pray to saints who have died." I need some indication that this is not only an acceptable practice, but something set up by God, as it is claimed. There is however, absolutely NOTHING.

Both were explecitly defined by councils and will not be found in Scripture under your criteria.

then you are misrepresenting what criteria I have for believing.

Any deviation of the true meaning of the Communion of Saints is a watered down Christianity.

so you say. I'm pretty sure though, you'd say that anything that doesn't agree completely and without question with RCC theology, is "watered down Christianity."

None of those verses define the Trinity.[/SIZE]

Peace

nor do I say they DO "define" the Trinity. They indicate it. If we are to study the word, and heed its instructions, the Trinity can be found. Scholarship of the word is required. But IT IS THERE.

It is an outright lie to state that it is not, and a basically dishonest tactic to validate a belief in something that is not even IN scripture in the slightest.

 

[lionroar0]

so you say. I'm pretty sure though, you'd say that anything that doesn't agree completely and without question with RCC theology, is "watered down Christianity."

The communion of Saints is not just RCC theology. It's also EOC and OO.

nor do I say they DO "define" the Trinity. They indicate it. If we are to study the word, and heed its instructions, the Trinity can be found. Scholarship of the word is required. But IT IS THERE.

It is an outright lie to state that it is not, and a basically dishonest tactic to validate a belief in something that is not even IN scripture in the slightest.

umm no it's pretty honest.

A person can find the verses that support the Trinity implicitly, because one is coming from a priori of : One God in three disctint person but undivisable of the same essence. Each person is fully God.

Just as a person who is coming from a priori that the communion of Sainst do not include the dearly derparted, which is not the full definition of 'The Communion of Sainsts," as per the authors and the one Church that defined it. Thus only clinging to one half of the definition and not all of it.

Peace

 

[Uphill Battle]

The communion of Saints is not just RCC theology. It's also EOC and OO.

nor do I say they DO "define" the Trinity. They indicate it. If we are to study the word, and heed its instructions, the Trinity can be found. Scholarship of the word is required. But IT IS THERE.



umm no it's pretty honest.

A person can find the verses that support the Trinity implicitly, because one is coming from a priori of : One God in three disctint person but undivisable of the same essence. Each person is fully God.

Just as a person who is coming from a priori that the communion of Sainst do not include the dearly derparted, which is not the full definition of 'The Communion of Sainsts," as per the authors and the one Church that defined it. Thus only clinging to one half of the definition and not all of it.

Peace

it is NOT honest.

speak plainly.

1) scripture has references for the trinity.

2) scripture does not have anything regarding praying to saints who have passed on.

Are you not willing to admit this, or are you going to continue playing that silly game?

 

[Iollain]

Even if it was possible to ask one passed on to pray for you, that is not, imo what is happening with Mary. For one example: Praying the rosary 200 times a day to repair Mary's heart??? This is not saying, 'Mary please pray for me for whatever'. Then there is the relying on Mary because the Father will not or may not hear you, what does the Bible say about coming boldly before the Throne , and what does the Bible say about asking everything in prayer, to the Father?

Just does not add up.

 

[Axion]

it is NOT honest.

speak plainly.

1) scripture has references for the trinity.

Not clear definitive references to Father Son and Holy Spirit as co-equal trinity.

2) scripture does not have anything regarding praying to saints who have passed on.

Are you not willing to admit this, or are you going to continue playing that silly game?

Certainly not going to "admit" that...

Scripture shows that all Christians wherever they may be, form one undivided body in Christ.
All members of that body, rejoice or suffer together
1 Corinthians:12.12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. .... 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable, ,,, 24But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, 25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

However some would try to divide the Body of Christ by denying that those in heaven can share the sufferings and rejoicings of fellow members of Christ's body on earth.

On the contrary, we see that in Jesus no Christian is dead.

Luke 20:38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him."

1 Th 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

James 5: 16-18 " ...The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."

Holiness strengthens prayer, so the holier and more righteous the person who prays for us, the better. Most of us don't know an Elijah personally. That is why we ask the Heavenly Saints to share in our prayers. And as we can see from Revelation 5, they do.

Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.8: ...and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

 

[WashedClean]

Not clear definitive references to Father Son and Holy Spirit as co-equal trinity.

How about Matt. 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Holiness strengthens prayer, so the holier and more righteous the person who prays for us, the better. Most of us don't know an Elijah personally. That is why we ask the Heavenly Saints to share in our prayers. And as we can see from Revelation 5, they do.

I have a grandmother who died many years ago who was a Christian. I'm pretty sure she's alive in heaven. Are you suggesting that I should ask her to pray for me? No, she's not a Saint according to the RCC, but she is a saint according to God. So, whadda ya think? Should we start asking all our relatives who were Christians but have passed on to pray for us?

 

[Uphill Battle]

How about Matt. 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"



I have a grandmother who died many years ago who was a Christian. I'm pretty sure she's alive in heaven. Are you suggesting that I should ask her to pray for me? No, she's not a Saint according to the RCC, but she is a saint according to God. So, whadda ya think? Should we start asking all our relatives who were Christians but have passed on to pray for us?

oh no no no! you CAN'T know she's there... the only ones you CAN know are the ones who have passed the CC bureaucratic process!

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by Axion

However some would try to divide the Body of Christ by denying that those in heaven can share the sufferings and rejoicings of fellow members of Christ's body on earth.

What scripture supports this?

On the contrary, we see that in Jesus no Christian is dead.

Luke 20:38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him."

The context has to do with being alive to God, but it does not say that being alive allows one to be able to answer or listen to prayers. That would be reading an incredible amount of presumptions into it.

1 Th 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

Who are the saints? Are they a selected group of people or all who have given themselves to Christ? What would the context indicate?

James 5: 16-18 " ...The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."

Holiness strengthens prayer, so the holier and more righteous the person who prays for us, the better. Most of us don't know an Elijah personally. That is why we ask the Heavenly Saints to share in our prayers. And as we can see from Revelation 5, they do.

Wait a minute! Is there a scripture that says that we have a rank of holiness. That is, that you are more holy than me or vice versa? Do we get points for being more holy and have a higher standing before God because of it? I can tell from your previous statement that you think saints are a selected group of believers. I would totally disagree. The word saints, as used in the Bible, does not afford any special distinction. It only refers to those who have given their lives to Christ.

Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

Revelation 5.8: ...and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Again, who are the saints? Are they selected individuals who are claimed to be more holy than others, or are they inclusive of all believers? Since you claim the former, how can you tell which is the case since you do not have any substantial information that would tell you in this context?