This may help explain #1

[BroGinder]

• Ok I have looked up verses and have studied them. I have spent many hours meditating, studying, and relying on the Holy Ghost for discernment and understanding. At the risk of upsetting people, clearly not my intent, my intention is to learn more about him and how to serve him and be more like him in all I do. All my responses are in italic. Please do not just beat me up, if you feel the need to attack me please I ask you for grace and mercy and explanation of your thoughts that I might understand as well.
• We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
• Ok so this scripture says that we are saved by faith not by works. I agree with that statement. If I missed another point these are purposed to make please advise me.
• ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
• I agree 100% with Dueteronomy 6:4 , Ephesians 4:6 needs previous versus to be used in order to put the statement into context. Read Ephesians 4:4-6, this puts it all into context. It is important as we dissect the Word we do not pin knife out a portion of the statement to make it say what we wish. Line upon line, precept upon precept.
• Father (Matthew 6: 9)
• I am not sure what is trying to be stated here. Jesus, was teaching how to pray, that we begin by giving praise to God, ask for needs, forgive others, and ask for forgiveness, and then end in praise. It was done as an example prayer for us to model how we pray.
• Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
• I do not understand what point is being made in this statement. If the purpose is to state that God is Almighty, all powerful, I concede that point.
• Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
• Agreed
• and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
• These are very powerful verses. They do however say more than just he created the invisible and the visible. If you go back to verse 13 and read forward it says: Col 1:13-17
• 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
• Who? His son, Jesus ok so read the next 2 verses remembering we are now talking about the son who is Jesus.
• 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
• 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
• Who is the image of the invisible God? Jesus is the image of God. He is the tangible, vessel needed, to be used in order for God to interact with us and be the propitiation for our sin Jesus was, who is God, visible.
• 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
• The verses are still referring to Jesus. For by him were all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth. Gen 1:1
• 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
• Amen!! Still talking about Jesus here.
• And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
• I am not sure what this point is. If the point is that there was only One Jesus Christ then I concede.
• Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
• Again, if the point is to say that Jesus was the Son of God I once again concede. He was also son of man.
• Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
• Define begotten for me. In Matthew when Jesus was born it says “For unto us a child is born, for unto us a son is given” He had to be born before he could be given. He had a beginning point through this scripture.
• Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
• I love this scripture as well. You can not start with verse 2 though. You have to start with verse one.
• John 1:1-4, 14
• 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
• In the beginning was the Word.
• 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
• The Word was God and the Word was in the beginning with God.
• 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
• He made all things
• 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
• Who was the light John 8:12 John 9:5. Interesting, Jesus said he was the light of the World.
• 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
• Wait right there. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, they are referring to the begotten one, Jesus. So if the Word was made Flesh and that was Jesus, and the Word was God John 1:1, then God is Jesus.
• Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
• Exactly my point. God is the Light, and Jesus declares he is the light. Binding them as one.
• True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
• Wonderful scripture he left us as a guide. Notice as you read through these scripture how in verse 3 he says 3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
• The only true God, and Jesus Christ. Isn’t it interesting statement that he did not separate God and Jesus Chris? That he identifies them as only which is singular in nature.
• Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
• Webster’s definition of beget is
• 1 : to procreate as the father
• So I am not sure what is being said by this point of this creed.
• of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
• Wow! Amen!! Glory! That’s what I believe right there. They are the same. Why then does this document spend so much time accenting that they are different entities?
• through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
• Ok have you read this scripture here by chance? Please I am not being rude or do not intend to come across that way. Verse 2 says, “ Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds” It says by whom he hath made the worlds. Who was he talking about; he was talking about the Son. Jesus. He said Jesus made all the Worlds.
• Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
• Step back to verse 3for a moment it says “ For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour” Please see Hos 13:4 and then John 4:42 Curious how this works. I am trying to understand and reason together, but most I am reading tells me exactly what I already believe.
• came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
• Praise the Lord!! Yet one more time Jesus claims himself to be God again.
• and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
• Mary was a virgin, praise God for a miraculous conception. Only proves his greatness and power.
• and became man. (John 1: 14)
• Amen!!

Continued in next thread

 

[BroGinder]

And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
Agreed!
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
Not sure why this is in the creed. Maybe you could explain it for me
.
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
Again, not sure the purpose of this. I think we all believe this portion.
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
Agreed
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
Agreed
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
Agreed
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
Both of these scriptures do not say “at” they say “on”. I think that is a mighty small word but has a mighty impact on the meaning. The scriptures say all authority was given unto Jesus. The right hand was considered the Power. Hence he was “On” the right hand of God because he was the power, the blood is where the power is. It’s the saving power, it’s the cleansing power.
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
Agreed
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
If in the quick you define as the quickend, those that are caught up in the rapture then I concede.
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 5:43
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
See the underlined portion of scripture? If he comes in his Father’s name, and the Holy Ghost comes in his name, then God’s name is Jesus. Yes? No?
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Unless I am missing something here, this verse doesn’t even say the word Lord in it. It does however, tie the Holy Ghost and God as the same. In verse 3 the scripture says “…Thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost…” and verse 4 says “…thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.”
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Verse 11 maybe?
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]*; (John 15: 26)
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Are you sure that there was permission given by God to add that which is in the [ ] to this scripture? What is the purpose if I may ask please?
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
The statement confuses me. What I see in this scripture is a prophet sign given to John. It was told unto John that he would know the Saviour by this sign. So this sign was given for John to have confirmation. The others that got to witness it, was free. It was intended for John alone to understand.
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
Agreed
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
If this is saying “The” Church then I agree
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
I find these verses to say that we are to be holy. Living as the Children of the King, as a Royal Priesthood, and Holy.
catholic**, (Mark 16: 15)
Again, we are not to change the Word of God. This verse says: Mark 16:15
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Rev 22:18-19
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
the Word of God called it the Apostles Doctrine. The Church is still built upon the same Rock, our Lord Jesus Christ. It is Christ’s Church.
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins***. (Ephesians 4: 5;
Acts 2: 38)
If it is not a salvational need what do we do with John 3:1-5
John 3:1-5
3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15:
12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
I look for the rapture and resurrection of the dead as well.
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)
*The phrase in square brackets [and the Son] (known as the filioque
clause) is not compulsory and does not need to be affirmed by members.
**The word "catholic" (literally, "universal") refers to the universal
church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to
any particular visible denomination or institution.
***This can be interpreted to mean that baptism is a matter of obedience
and not a requirement for salvation or a regenerating ordinance.
With that I conclude where I find differences in scripture and this creed. As I feel you are sincere, I hope you understand I am also sincere and I seek knowledge and understanding. Are you willing to assist me in this journey of understanding? I certainly hope so. God Bless

 

[BroGinder]

Am I right on the money here, or am I causing confusion. This is truly a seeking input thought. I titled it wrong tho for sure.

 

[Adstar]

You’re a serious seeker. But you’re looking for an understandable and concrete conclusion. But the Word Says

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If you focus on the"Word was God" part of the statement you are discarding the "the Word was with God" part of the statement.

This is the mystery that is Jesus is both God but also separate from God in some way. This is a puzzle that is i believe beyond human understanding.

Maybe when we enter into eternity we will have the ability to understand.

So yes Jesus is God but our understanding of the nature of God is still lacking.

John 14
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?

Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[tapero]

Hi, I would like to help, but there is too much in the 2 posts for me to go thru.

If you post your questions one by one or such it would help.

Maybe you can take out from all you wrote the bits you don't agree with or understand and post them as questions.

I'm sure others will be able to follow all you wrote, but I can't, just too much information for me.

can't tell where a statement or question is.

Not your fault it's just me.

Blessings,
tapero

 

[ebia]

I have no idea what the question is - the posts are so hard to decipher. It's just about impossible to tell what is the stuff you are commenting on, what is your own words, and what is scripture or other quoted in support.

 

[BroGinder]

There are numerous questions through out the document, I do however understand how it runs together.

I believe that God is not hte author of confusion. I believe that if we truly seek understanding God will supply it. It is his desire for us to know him more.

 

[tapero]

Can you pull some of those questions out for us, so we can reply? It's just too hard to read brother.

Thanks,
tapero

 

[Key]

To answer some of your questions.

"Gods Name" is not "Jesus".

Jesus is the Son of Man and God, and our Savor, God is the Creator. Jesus was a name given to the Flesh of the Word that would walk this world, as such, Jesus came in his Fathers name, not his own, because his name was a name of a man, not God.

Water Baptism, is a sign of Obedience, and it shows and represents your willingness to submit to God and Jesus. In a way it can be viewed as a requirement, as submission is a requirement, but also, we can be baptized in the spirit. As the Apostles baptized in the spirit, as John only baptized with water.

Also note that, Both Water and Fire are cleaning agents in the OT and NT times, as such, only when a person has been "Cleansed" and reborn, are they ready for the kingdom of Heaven.

Hope this helps with some of your questions.

God Bless

Key.

 

[tapero]

Just want to note. Jesus is God, It is one of the many of God's names; Jesus that is.

 

[BroGinder]

Happy to. So what I will do is copy an paste into smaller, MUCH smaller blocks. I will leave out the blocks that I feel we agree on.

I will post the portions that I am curious about, and the ones that I find go against what I felt the Word says with how the Word read to me, so as to assist in my mindset which may help as we reason together on these topics. There are some that I FELT have a context issue I will post those as well.

I know I have said this before, understand I am not lashing out attacking I am seeking understanding. I SO appreciate your grace and mercy as you help me along this journey. God Bless you all for your help

 

[BroGinder]

ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)

Response: I agree 100% with Dueteronomy 6:4 . I feel Ephesians 4:6 needs previous versus to be used, in order to put the statement into context. Read Ephesians 4:4-6, this puts it all into context. It is important as we dissect the Word we do not leave out a portion of the statement to make it say what we wish. Line upon line, precept upon precept

 

[BroGinder]

and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

Response: These are very powerful verses. They do however say more than just he created the invisible and the visible. They identify exactly who "HE" is. If you go back to verse 13 and read forward it says: Col 1:13-17
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Who? His son, Jesus ok so read the next 2 verses remembering we are now talking about the son who is Jesus.
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Who is the image of the invisible God? Jesus is the image of God. He is the tangible, vessel needed, to be used in order for God to interact with us and be the propitiation for our sin Jesus was, who is God, visible.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
The verses are still referring to Jesus. For by him were all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth. Gen 1:1
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Amen!! Still talking about Jesus here.

 

[BroGinder]

Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
I love this scripture as well. You can not start with verse 2 though. You have to start with verse one.
John 1:1-4, 14
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
In the beginning was the Word.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
The Word was God and the Word was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
He made all things
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Who was the light John 8:12 John 9:5. Interesting, Jesus said he was the light of the World.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Wait right there. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, they are referring to the begotten one, Jesus. So if the Word was made Flesh and that was Jesus, and the Word was God John 1:1, then God is Jesus.

 

[BroGinder]

I reckon We can start with these three to begin. I understand they may not read as a traditional Who, What, Where, etc... question. If we stand the same then I misunderstood the creed's stance and ther eis no debate on it. Once agina, thank you so much.

 

[ebia]

ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)

Response: I agree 100% with Dueteronomy 6:4 . I feel Ephesians 4:6 needs previous versus to be used, in order to put the statement into context. Read Ephesians 4:4-6, this puts it all into context. It is important as we dissect the Word we do not leave out a portion of the statement to make it say what we wish. Line upon line, precept upon precept

I'm not sure what your point is (or even where you are getting the verse references you put beside the credal statements). The creed isn't a summary of those verses, it's a set of statements about God. If you have a problem with "There is one God." The you need to spell it out so we can discuss it.

Wait right there. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, they are referring to the begotten one, Jesus. So if the Word was made Flesh and that was Jesus, and the Word was God John 1:1, then God is Jesus.

You lost it at the end.
Jesus (The Word) is God.

But that statement isn't reversable;
God isn't Jesus (alone). God is the Trinity, Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit.

 

[ebia]

and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

Response: These are very powerful verses. They do however say more than just he created the invisible and the visible. They identify exactly who "HE" is. If you go back to verse 13 and read forward it says: Col 1:13-17
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Who? His son, Jesus ok so read the next 2 verses remembering we are now talking about the son who is Jesus.
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Who is the image of the invisible God? Jesus is the image of God. He is the tangible, vessel needed, to be used in order for God to interact with us and be the propitiation for our sin Jesus was, who is God, visible.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
The verses are still referring to Jesus. For by him were all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth. Gen 1:1
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Amen!! Still talking about Jesus here.

The trouble is Col 1.15 onwards is talking about who it's all created through not by. All things are created by the Father, through the Son. Through the Word, by the one who speaks the Word. (Your translation of verse 16 is not a good one - it would be better to read "for in him alll things were created...", not by for this very reason).

 

[BroGinder]

Verse 16 is quoted from KJV bible. Not my translation.

 

[BroGinder]

Those verses sit beside the Nicene Creed staement on this very sight. I studied them to see if my belief in the "Oneness of the GOD HEAD" was correct. The responses are from me, all scripture I studied as well as quoated are form KJV

 

[ebia]

Verse 16 is quoted from KJV bible. Not my translation.

I didn't mean to imply that you'd translated it yourself - by "your translation" I meant "the translation you have chosen to quote from". Lots of the translations do have "by", but that doesn't make it a good translation - the greek allows, if not requires, "... for in him were all things created...", so building an argument based on translating in "by" would be building a house on sand.

Those verses sit beside the Nicene Creed staement on this very sight.

Fair enough (I suppose I've never looked at this site's page quoting the creed) - but they aren't part of the Creed, just something someone has put alongside it - presumably to explain it or illustrate it, not to prove it. The Creed isn't the result of a piecing together a few proof texts - if it were it wouldn't have taken the church a couple of hundred years to iron it out. You can do what you like with the quotes, but they aren't what the creed is based upon.

The responses are from me, all scripture I studied as well as quoated are form KJV

In the above specific instance the Authorised Version doesn't do a particularly good job.