This may help explain #1

[BroGinder]

I so appreciate your thought on the translation. I did research it this morning and I do see that in the Greek G1722 are used for both that particular "by" and the word "in". Still makes the same point to me, as he is omnipresent and in him all things exhist. Hard to have a "Move" of God when he is everywhere at all times. So what we should say is we need God to move us. Thank you for sending me to the original.

Ok then, help me understand why this Nicene Creed was created. This was written some 325 ad, what was the need, purpose for such a thing.

Why would a DOCTRINE be based on a Creed rather than just referring to the Bible. Hence my looking at it scripture by scripture, as provided, to follow what appears to be where the explanations of the stand taken, comes from.

I agreed with several of the points and the scripture that was supplied because the did indeed explain the point in the creed. However, there were numerous that did not.

I guess here is my true desire. If I am not walking in truth, I want to be. If I am walking in truth I want others to be as well. My heart and mind are open for what ever God wants me to see. I have a desire to be like him, think like him as the Word does allow if we seek it.

I know God's mind is as far above ours as the Heavens above the Earth. However, his word says, Knock and it shall be opened, seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be answered.

Matt 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
KJV

So I ask, so I expect to recieve.

 

[ebia]

I so appreciate your thought on the translation. I did research it this morning and I do see that in the Greek G1722 are used for both that particular "by" and the word "in". Still makes the same point to me, as he is omnipresent and in him all things exhist. Hard to have a "Move" of God when he is everywhere at all times. So what we should say is we need God to move us. Thank you for sending me to the original.

Well, it now leaves open the possiblity that the Creed is correct - ie that all is made by the father, through and in the Son.

Ok then, help me understand why this Nicene Creed was created. This was written some 325 ad, what was the need, purpose for such a thing.

It's written to be the churches official answer to certain debates of the time about the nature of God, and of Jesus in particular.

Why would a DOCTRINE be based on a Creed rather than just referring to the Bible.

Because the issues it addresses are ones that the bible doesn't spell out clearly, to do with the nature of Trinity, and the incarnate nature of Christ. These are touched on indirectly in the bible, but are not spelled out explicitly. So the church, guided by the Holy Spirit, through a long process of prayer and council, nutted out the creed.


Hence my looking at it scripture by scripture, as provided, to follow what appears to be where the explanations of the stand taken, comes from.

I agreed with several of the points and the scripture that was supplied because the did indeed explain the point in the creed. However, there were numerous that did not.

But, as I said, the scripture quotes aren't how the creed was derived - if it were derivable that easily it would never have been needed in he first place. When you find flaws, you are finding flaws not in the creed, but in the choice of quotes CF has put along side it.

 

[tapero]

I so appreciate your thought on the translation. I did research it this morning and I do see that in the Greek G1722 are used for both that particular "by" and the word "in". Still makes the same point to me, as he is omnipresent and in him all things exhist. Hard to have a "Move" of God when he is everywhere at all times. So what we should say is we need God to move us. Thank you for sending me to the original.

Ok then, help me understand why this Nicene Creed was created. This was written some 325 ad, what was the need, purpose for such a thing.

Why would a DOCTRINE be based on a Creed rather than just referring to the Bible. Hence my looking at it scripture by scripture, as provided, to follow what appears to be where the explanations of the stand taken, comes from.

I agreed with several of the points and the scripture that was supplied because the did indeed explain the point in the creed. However, there were numerous that did not.

I guess here is my true desire. If I am not walking in truth, I want to be. If I am walking in truth I want others to be as well. My heart and mind are open for what ever God wants me to see. I have a desire to be like him, think like him as the Word does allow if we seek it.

I know God's mind is as far above ours as the Heavens above the Earth. However, his word says, Knock and it shall be opened, seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be answered.

Matt 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
KJV

So I ask, so I expect to recieve.

Hi, not being exposed or learned in church history, I don't know why the creed was created.

Only thing I do know is that is what Christian forums goes by to determine if a person is a nicene agreeing Christian, for cf recognizes that there are Chrstians who are not nicene agreeing. And the purpose of cf to have this only for icon purposes for those who can post in all of cf.

I love what you wrote..bible says if you seek me with all your heart you will find me. Bless you as you do this brohter.

Love
tapero

 

[BroGinder]

It's written to be the churches official answer to certain debates of the time about the nature of God, and of Jesus in particular.


Because the issues it addresses are ones that the bible doesn't spell out clearly, to do with the nature of Trinity, and the incarnate nature of Christ. These are touched on indirectly in the bible, but are not spelled out explicitly. So the church, guided by the Holy Spirit, through a long process of prayer and council, nutted out the creed.

God is not the author of confusion, and doesnt need man to write some rules about his deity do you think?

 

[ebia]

God is not the author of confusion,

what's confusion got to do with it?

and doesnt need man to write some rules about his deity do you think?

God created the church to do stuff for him, including putting together the bible and, apparently, writing the Nicene Creed.

Whether or not God needs people to do stuff for him, he certainly uses people to do stuff for him.

 

[BroGinder]

I will concede the fact he used man to pen and assemble the Bible. As I know this is the Inspired Word of God. I do not concede on the Creed being Inspired by God. I do not see mention of this in the Bible.

I think I have been going around this the wrong way. I don't know why it did not come to me this way before.

I got a little hung up on this Creed thing, thinking if I understood where the mindset was and why it was written I could grasp or understand the Trinity Godhead concept. My study only took me further into disagreeance with the Creed so it was not helpfull to travel that road.

I believe that in Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead. I find scripture through out the Bible both OT and NT that cover this.

I have always weighted mymindset on the fact that scripture interp. scripture. Hence I hung things in the balance as I read and discover as God reveals them to me.

Again I want to state, I am not searcing for a fight, or to offend anyone, I am seeking for truth. Help me with the Trinity Godhead concept, because I do not see it.

Thank you in advance.

 

[tapero]

I will concede the fact he used man to pen and assemble the Bible. As I know this is the Inspired Word of God. I do not concede on the Creed being Inspired by God. I do not see mention of this in the Bible.

I think I have been going around this the wrong way. I don't know why it did not come to me this way before.

I got a little hung up on this Creed thing, thinking if I understood where the mindset was and why it was written I could grasp or understand the Trinity Godhead concept. My study only took me further into disagreeance with the Creed so it was not helpfull to travel that road.

I believe that in Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead. I find scripture through out the Bible both OT and NT that cover this.

I have always weighted mymindset on the fact that scripture interp. scripture. Hence I hung things in the balance as I read and discover as God reveals them to me.

Again I want to state, I am not searcing for a fight, or to offend anyone, I am seeking for truth. Help me with the Trinity Godhead concept, because I do not see it.

Thank you in advance.

You are doing well to go by scripture alone to find the truth. The bible may seem confusing but there are theologies that try to explain some of the confusion.

I don't get into theologies much if at all, but have read about dispensations, and do think that this is what causes much confusion..that we don't recognize that there are different dispensations in the bible

two examples are the dispensation of law and
dispensation of grace, which we are now under,grace i mean, post acts or within acts after paul is given the task to bring the gospel to the gentiles by Jesus for the Jews had rejected him, which was who he came to.

The gospel of grace the period we are in now, is that one need believe in Jesus for salvation; nothing further is needed to be saved. Though many will say more is needed, there is no truth to it, only Jesus can save us, and nothing we do or don't do will ever change that. The bible is full of how to walk to grow further in God.

okay..

the trinity:

Father, Son, Holy Spirit is One God, in 3 persons.

Here is a scripture which shows us that the Holy Spirit is God:

Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

John 14:16 re the Holy Spirit:

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you.

to note: How does the Holy Spirit indwell us now?

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

redemption means salvation. Also note, we can never lose our salvation, once we believe, the above verse is proof of such. Verses which speak differently are regarding differnt dispensations. Again we are in a time of Grace which is Jesus, belief in Jesus brings salvation.

You probaby have no problem with the Father being God, I would take.

Jesus

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

The Word is Jesus.

16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Isaiah 44:8
Is there any God besides me?

This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the LORD,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 5

As you probably know Abraham is discussed in the first book of the bible Genesis, maybe into exodus, don't recall, but mainly Genesis OT. The scripture above is in the NT and Jesus is talking. Note Abraham saw his day and was glad.

Also note Jesus calls Himself I AM.

This is a name for God. Actually what God says His name is, at least in our english translations.

Also note Jesus say, before Abraham was, I AM.

This shows that Jesus was before Abraham, showing that He existed before Abraham, and we know that Jesus has always existed as He is creator, and not created.

Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"

14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [b] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' " 15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, [c] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

I think I've given you lots to look over and think about.

I didn't post scriptures about the Father being God, because I have a feeling you may already know such.

Scripture shows the Holy Spirit is God and Jesus is God.

There is only One God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

This is the trinity.

Jesus did manifest himself in the old testament as the Son of Man.

So Jesus always existed as God was not created in any way. God is infinite, there is no place where his presence isn't.

The Holy Spirit always existed as God is not created in any way..same with the Father.

One God.

Jesus came to man to the Hebrews.

He taught, forgave sins, performed miracles, healed spoke of things to come and much more.

Then He died for our sins, was resurrected but before he ascended to heaven he revealed himself to many believers and then He ascended to heaven


And is now seated at the right hand of the Father, however if you search on this you will also find that He is standing in the throne with the Father.

The Hebrews rejected Him, just as they rejected God in the OT.

(Please note salvation was always going to come to the gentiles, it is written I believe in Isaiah)

So the gospel was given to Paul to preach to the gentiles, the good news which is that Christ is our savior, and to believe in Christ. Paul preached much of Jesus, but in one below I've given what he said to the jailers.

But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
" 'I have made you[g] a light for the Gentiles,
that you[h] may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'[i]"
48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them. 26Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everybody's chains came loose. 27The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped. 28But Paul shouted, "Don't harm yourself! We are all here!"

29The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

I hope this helps some. I'll check back in a few days,

Blessings,
tapero

 

[ebia]

I will concede the fact he used man to pen and assemble the Bible. As I know this is the Inspired Word of God. I do not concede on the Creed being Inspired by God. I do not see mention of this in the Bible.

Well, you wouldn't, would you - since the creed is written after the last book in the bible.

But then, the bible doesn't say that the list of books that are in the bible is inspired either - another product of the church, produced at approximately the same time, and following a similar process.

I think I have been going around this the wrong way. I don't know why it did not come to me this way before.

I got a little hung up on this Creed thing, thinking if I understood where the mindset was and why it was written I could grasp or understand the Trinity Godhead concept. My study only took me further into disagreeance with the Creed so it was not helpfull to travel that road.

I believe that in Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead. I find scripture through out the Bible both OT and NT that cover this

Yes he is. And so is the Father, and so is the Spirit. And yet each is distinct. As soon as you think "Jesus is the fullness of God" excludes the idea of Trinity you've missed the point of Trinity, which is somewhat paradoxical.

I have always weighted mymindset on the fact that scripture interp. scripture.

A very modern and itself unscriptural view (not to mention logically meaningless), and certainly not the view behind the creed.

Hence I hung things in the balance as I read and discover as God reveals them to me.

Again I want to state, I am not searcing for a fight, or to offend anyone, I am seeking for truth. Help me with the Trinity Godhead concept, because I do not see it.

Thank you in advance.

Try getting your head around the Athanasian Creed, which is the one that actually spells out the details of the Trinity:
http://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

 

[BroGinder]

Thought here.

Example, #26 in that creed states: " 26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. "

Yet I find in scripture the following verse:
Matt 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
KJV

How can one have ALL power and they be coequal?

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

Whats this about? So less I am catholic I am destined to hell?

 

[BroGinder]

Tapero, thank you very much for your response. I am studying the scripture you have supplied and will respond should I have any thoughts or questions on that matter.

God bless you for your mercy and grace with me.

 

[ebia]

Thought here.

Example, #26 in that creed states: " 26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. "

Yet I find in scripture the following verse:
Matt 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
KJV

How can one have ALL power and they be coequal?

The concept of Trinity is, as I said before and has always been recognised, somewhat paradoxical; it doesn't sit well with simple logic. It's an attempt to explain with language and ideas of this world a relationship that is far beyond this world or the concepts we have to understand it.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

Whats this about? So less I am catholic I am destined to hell?

Catholic here roughly translates as 'universal'. It does not refer to the RCC or any other particular denomination (since the creed predates such distinctions).