This life is a testing place for everyone

[Paleouss]

This life is a series of temporal tests before we receive the glorified body. Through these tests, we will find out who we really are. Will we choose to do good?

Greetings Tony. I thought I would give my 2cents on your topic.

To me, the topic you are touching on is one of "what would have happened to Adam if he had not sinned"? When one asks this question, it seems to me, one is inquiring into the overarching purpose of this world. What did God intend from the beginning? Was there an overarching purpose to the creation of this world?

To these questions, the Scriptures do not explicitly state. However, the Scriptures have many clues, IMO.

We know through Scripture that all that was created, all that is and all that will be is made "for Him" (Col 1:16). As Augustine wrote, "Though has formed us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless till they find rest in Thee". So we know that this world was and is for the Son of God (Jesus Christ). He is the purpose from the beginning (John 1:1) to the end (2Cor 5:10, Matt 25), Hence He is the Alpha (Rev 22:13, 1:8, 21:6) and the Omega (Rev 22:13, 1:8).

God created mankind as a creature that learns through experience, this is clear to see. So this worlds purpose was to nurture Adam to this worlds intended end, that is God the Son. This nurturing, through experiences of this world, walking with God, etc. is to bring the created to its intended purposeful end, which is God the Son. For more on this line of thought see Academia.com Introduction to a Natural Revelation In The Creational Experience. And a second essay, Introduction To A Natural Revelation In The Creational Experience: Essay II Reconciling Spiritual Instruction to All Mankind. A word of caution, these essays, although biblically referenced and sighted... at times turns into philosophy. Since these questions being asked are not explicitly addressed within Scripture.

So I would see your assertion of "tests" to translate to 'experiences for spiritual growth toward God the Son'. In this sense, Adam was walking with God and receiving his Father's teachings through this world.

Got to Go
Peace be with you.

 

[tonychanyt]

So I would see your assertion of "tests"

It is not my assertion. See Does God test/tempt people?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

There is no question that there are certain exercises of discernment for all of us between good and evil. It's built into our very conscience, and validated in scriptures.

So, perhaps calling these things an exercise is more appropriate. Definitely not a test though. We are all exercised by evil, and hopefully to reject it. But we all also utterly fail to eradicate it from our very conscience. So in that regards we all continually fail, because of the presence of evil within our own minds, and this courtesy of the tempter.

Ecclesiastes 1:13

And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

I have personally tasted many tears over this sore travail. And I'd suggest any person with a heart has tasted the same tears.

Hebrews 5:14

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

It is God Himself who has set "evil" before us. And choosing the good didn't eliminate that evil set before us all either

So, what is the "Divine Plan?" How Great is a God who makes evil His servant? To show us a matter that is beyond our wildest comprehensions, HIS GRACE AND MERCY IN CHRIST.

What an amazing contrast!

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The mercy you wish for others you will receive for yourself

 

[KevinT]

Angels cannot reproduce; humans can. God's plan was to create a man and a woman to reproduce. God wanted to select a faithful people to live forever.

Matt 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

As far as I know, this is the only text (or possibly parallel passages in other gospels) that speaks of marriage in the future. One might infer that when Jesus precludes future marriage that He meant no future children. But I could imagine arrangements wherein angels or future humans could reproduce outside the bounds of a legal marriage arrangement -- which was the trap the Sadducees were catch him in.

Because that was exactly its purpose. It was at a prominent location to test the obedience and loyalty of Adam and Eve. Everyone will be tested/tempted.

Agreed.

If our body in heaven will be sinless, unlike our current fleshly body, why did God not just do that to begin with? This life is a series of temporal tests before we receive the glorified body. Through these tests, we will find out who we really are. Will we choose to do good?

This is an excellent point. What part of a human will survive after the resurrection? Will I still have the scars on my hands from shop accidents? Will my hearing still be poor? I think not. I think it will only be our minds that will be carried over. And given that our brains tend to start failing as we get older, the physical aspects of our minds will probably also not maintained. So it really is just our character, our personalities, our personhood that I think will be kept.

This world is the testing ground. God permits wickedness in the world to test the hearts of man, good or bad so that the works of the godly might be displayed. If you enjoy wealth and health, what are you doing with your possessions? Ultimately, everything leads to the Cross and the glory of the Cross.

Nicely written. Thanks

KT

 

[tonychanyt]

arrangements wherein angels or future humans could reproduce outside the bounds of a legal marriage arrangement

Would that be a sin?

 

[Paleouss]

So I would see your assertion of "tests" to translate to 'experiences for spiritual growth toward God the Son'. In this sense, Adam was walking with God and receiving his Father's teachings through this world.

It is not my assertion. See Does God test/tempt people?

Sorry for any confusion. I didn't have a lot of time when I ended my previous post. When I say 'assertion' I mean... "a statement of fact or belief". So if I claim you had an assertion, I only intend to mean you had presented a statement of fact or belief. So an assertion can be either true or false.

My point I was trying to make was that "tests", which God most certainly gives us (Psa 26:2, 17:3), have purpose other than measuring one's faith. Scripture tells us that mankind is refined in the furnace of experience and reflection (Psa 26:2, 66:10, Prov 17:3, 2Chr 32:31).

Those tests, which are from our experiences, can also be grouped with such terms within the Bible as 'suffering', or 'trials', or 'tribulations'. We are told to "rejoice in our suffering" (Jam 1:2) and "through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). But why should we rejoice in suffering? Well, because we know that this world and its experiences leads to spiritual outcomes; like "perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope" (Rom 5:3-4).

So to bring this all around, Adam's "test" within the garden was being used by God to build spiritual growth and outcomes toward this worlds intended end. And that intended end is God the Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.


Peace be with you my brother

 

[tonychanyt]

My point I was trying to make was that "tests", which God most certainly gives us (Psa 26:2, 17:3), have purpose other than measuring one's faith.

Right. Can you quote my words that contradict your point?

 

[Paleouss]

Right. Can you quote my words that contradict your point?

I saw no contradiction. Only an opportunity to expand upon what you said and provide a deeper view for others that might read it.

I pray God does a fruitful work through you

 

[KevinT]

KT said: arrangements wherein angels or future humans could reproduce outside the bounds of a legal marriage arrangement

Would that be a sin?

If God blessed the new arrangement, it would be OK.
KT

 

[Paleouss]

As far as I know, this is the only text (or possibly parallel passages in other gospels) that speaks of marriage in the future. One might infer that when Jesus precludes future marriage that He meant no future children. But I could imagine arrangements wherein angels or future humans could reproduce outside the bounds of a legal marriage arrangement -- which was the trap the Sadducees were catch him in.

Hello Kevin. I hope your blessings are many this week.

This angel and marriage topic is not the OP topic. So I will keep my response to your quote, above, short. I wanted to parse out a few things from your quote, above.

You wrote, "One might infer that when Jesus precludes future marriage that He meant no future children". Cleary this 'inference' would be false and unwarranted. First, nowhere in the context is their any reference to children. The whole context is about the marriage of the woman to multiple men here on earth AND marriage in heaven (biblical marriage). So inferring the concept of children would be an egregious misreading of the text (IMO). Second, the text clearly implies that angels don't marry in heaven (past, present, future). Thus, there would be confidence that the woman, who had multiple husbands here on earth, would not be married to any of them because the implication is that there is no marriage in heaven, ever. (past, present, future)

You wrote, "But I could imagine arrangements wherein angels or future humans could reproduce outside the bounds of a legal marriage arrangement". Three points here. First, if God made it were angels don't marry then it is reasonable to think that angels don't reproduce. For what would be God's purpose of creating angels that can reproduce if he never intents them to marry and give the directive of be fruitful and multiply. Secondly, angels are only referred to in Scripture as masculine. Now it could be debated that this masculine reference is not even actual gender. Thus, angels are not masculine or feminine and cannot reproduce. However, if they are all of masculine gender then they could not reproduce because there are no female angels.

Third point, the implication of "heaven" implies that mankind and angels being referred to are in favor and right standing with God. Remember, the new heaven and new earth has no sin. Therefore, there is no reasonable situation where humans or angels would reproduce outside of the bonds of biblical marriage in the future heaven or earth.

Peace be with you

 

[KevinT]

Hello Kevin. I hope your blessings are many this week.

Blessings to you as well. I'm going to respond to your text. But I want to preface this with a caveat that I don't have strong feelings about this issue. I could well be wrong. I was just exploring ideas.

You wrote, "One might infer that when Jesus precludes future marriage that He meant no future children". Clearly this 'inference' would be false and unwarranted. First, nowhere in the context is their any reference to children. The whole context is about the marriage of the woman to multiple men here on earth AND marriage in heaven (biblical marriage). So inferring the concept of children would be an egregious misreading of the text (IMO).

You are correct that Jesus didn't mention children. I was reading this into the text because the purpose that a man was supposed to marry his brother's widowed wife, was expressly for the purpose of having children and maintaining the family line. Deut 25:5-6

Second, the text clearly implies that angels don't marry in heaven (past, present, future). Thus, there would be confidence that the woman, who had multiple husbands here on earth, would not be married to any of them because the implication is that there is no marriage in heaven, ever. (past, present, future)

In the OT, a woman, once married to a man, was legally bound to him. When Judah found that Tamar was pregnant, he ordered her burned to death(!) for her presumed sexual infidelity. (Genesis 38). It was only the fact that Judah was the involved man, and that she was well within the rights of the law, that saved her. And while a man could go and get an additional wife, a woman could not get an additional husband. No one talked about burning Judah for his actions with a "prostitute" (who later turned out to be Tamar -- to his great surprise). My point is that marriage was a system heavily favored towards men.

So was Jesus talking about that sort of bondage-marriage? Or was He talking about ANY sort of union between future between humans?

You wrote, "But I could imagine arrangements wherein angels or future humans could reproduce outside the bounds of a legal marriage arrangement". Three points here. First, if God made it were angels don't marry then it is reasonable to think that angels don't reproduce.

You are making a similar inference as I did initially. You are saying that no marriage among angels --> no children among angels, which is similar to what I wrote: "One might infer that when Jesus precludes future marriage that He meant no future children".

Yes, marriage has traditionally been tightly linked to reproduction and the raising of children, and this is the Biblical model. But think about the wild animals. Some pair for life, but many just temporarily come together for copulation. In some animals the male stays to help raise the young, and in other cases not. A wild lion will mate with a lioness and then take off. The mother raises the cubs alone.

For what would be God's purpose of creating angels that can reproduce if he never intents them to marry and give the directive of be fruitful and multiply.

Maybe God could have the angels follow a model similar to lions??

Secondly, angels are only referred to in Scripture as masculine. Now it could be debated that this masculine reference is not even actual gender. Thus, angels are not masculine or feminine and cannot reproduce. However, if they are all of masculine gender then they could not reproduce because there are no female angels.

This is an interesting point that I have not considered before.

Third point, the implication of "heaven" implies that mankind and angels being referred to are in favor and right standing with God. Remember, the new heaven and new earth has no sin. Therefore, there is no reasonable situation where humans or angels would reproduce outside of the bonds of biblical marriage in the future heaven or earth.

I am not saying that they might go against God's directions. But rather that the directions from God could be different due to different circumstances.

Peace be with you

Best wishes and peace to you as well.

Kevin

 

[Paleouss]

So was Jesus talking about that sort of bondage-marriage? Or was He talking about ANY sort of union between future between humans?

Kevin, thank you for the pleasant response.

It seems to me that Jesus is simply being factual. When He says, "people will neither marry nor be given in marriage" (Matt 22:30). There doesn't seem to be any room for ambiguity here. Marriage is marriage, however one wants to parse out all the kinds of possible types of marriage mankind has devised. Whatever possibilities there are, there will be no marriage. Just as the angels.

You are making a similar inference as I did initially.

Actually, I think mine is deductive logic.

You are saying that no marriage among angels --> no children among angels, which is similar to what I wrote: "One might infer that when Jesus precludes future marriage that He meant no future children".

Well, that would be skipping some steps.

(1) There is no marriage among angels in heaven (Matt 22:30).
(2) It is a sin to have sexual relation outside of marriage according to God (Heb 13:4).
(C) If angels do not marry then it follows that angels do not have sexual relations in heaven. Otherwise it would be sin. And there is no sin in the new heaven and new earth.
(3) If angels do not have sex in heaven, because one must be married to have sex, then angels do not procreate in heaven.
(C) If angels do not procreate in heaven. Then it is reasonable to concluded that angels cannot procreate at all. For why would God allow such a thing if he intends angels to never marry and never have sexual relations (because they don't marry).

Yes, marriage has traditionally been tightly linked to reproduction and the raising of children, and this is the Biblical model. But think about the wild animals. Some pair for life, but many just temporarily come together for copulation. In some animals the male stays to help raise the young, and in other cases not. A wild lion will mate with a lioness and then take off. The mother raises the cubs alone.

This is not biblical marriage. So it does not apply to Matthew 22:13. Jesus is speaking of human beings who are in the image of God and the union of marriage in which God has established for human beings. You have turned the topic of marriage among human beings into sex outside the bonds of marriage. Which the Bible says is a sin.

I am not saying that they might go against God's directions. But rather that the directions from God could be different due to different circumstances.

God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow (Heb 13:8). The reason that we can have confidence in our Lord is because He is righteous, pure, and eternal. We know that evil will never be good and good will never be evil. God's eternal character is...well...eternal. The topics in which you speak that God might "be different" are one's he has declared sin. That is, that sex outside of the marriage bond is sin. Sex with angels, although I do not think this is even a thing, will always be sin and God will not reverse course and make something that was sin to be not sin. How then would it be justice to condemn the wicked in this world to then turn around and give the stamp of approval to that same wickedness in the next? That would seem to be against His character.

Best wishes and peace to you as well.

Thank you Kevin.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it was hidden treasure.