THIS is what is wrong with many churches! (A Rant)

[tulc]

God is one. Therefore, there can only be one true religion. And thus, one true Church, just like He instituted in the Bible.

Uhmm...how do you know the one you like is the right one?
tulc(just wondering)

 

[meebs]

If god was real, i would think that god would prefer people to worship him together in unity.

 

[GnosticBodhi]

Sad indeed to see someone who thinks he is believing in what Jesus taught when in fact he is only believing in what he interpreted personally

How can anyone know what Jesus really meant? Isn't everything in the Bible subject to personal interpretation?

 

[Zaac]

Huh - this just adds to my view that christianity in the general sense is divided, mixed up and confused.

Don't let denominational differences make you think that Christianity is divided , mixed up and confused. Christ is the standard bearer for Christianity, not the denominations.

I for one HATED it when i had to be confirmed in the church (of England). Before i found in some places that i could take the bread and the wine - no strings attached -in some places, but not in others.

That's heritage and church doctrine. It is not Christianity.

What is wrong with a person just accepting there is a god, that they think Jesus did all that stuff for them, that they get baptised when that person is good and ready (ie their choice, not the parents).

Ain't nothing at all wrong with it. Nobody else can save you. No one else can accept salvation for you. It is a choice that each individual has to make to receive the gift of Jesus Christ. NO ONE can cede salvation to you just like they can't make you responsible for their sin.

After that they can take the wine/bread and go for the service when they need to? And if there are any differences, instead of getting told they are a heathen and they need to change their views, that they just tolerate the belief instead and worship their god together anyways instead of fighting and wasting their energies on arguing, so they can help those who need it?

A beautiful thought. But again, too many people equate what their "church" is to what God's CHURCH is. ANd that ain't the case.

Religion drives me mad sometimes, you see why many of us cant take religion seriously?

religion should drive you mad. A relationship with Jesus Christ will leave you elated.

sometimes it seems like a case of: "My version of god is better", "no MY version of god is best..."

That's why you give what God says and leave it at that.

 

[dinonum]

I just read what that boy posted and then I read your post. Oh my goodness! That is sickening to me. I can not stand the idea of making someone feel so small and toubled because they left your church!!!!! I really can't get my mind around it!

For the record I completely agree with you!!

 

[Zaac]

I believe from a Catholic point of view, Jesus gave Peter the keys to His church. Peter founded the Catholic Church, and passed the keys on to the next guy. So that currently John Paul 2 has the keys to Jesus' Church. Nobody else has them. So the Catholics are special.

I've heard that before too. But didn't Paul start the church in Rome? And were there no more churches started before this one?

The issue that pops up with this whole the "whatever church" is the church is this: people start to idolize the church. And entirely too many do.

God didn't say anything about any Catholic Church in His Word for the same reason He doesn't say that He is black, white, or green

An all-knowing God knew that as soon as He did such a thing, there would be those out there, who just as there are now, thinking that somehow they are better off because they are in the catholic church or the same color as Him. And people would , just like today, start idolizing their organizations or their skin colors and making those things foremost, INSTEAD OF JESUS CHRIST.

Now, they are either right or wrong. I'm pretty confident they are wrong, but then it just becomes another form of Pascal's Wager.

Don't you come up in here talkin' bout no Pascal's Wager.(LOL)

 

[alexgb00]

God is one. Therefore, there can only be one true religion. And thus, one true Church, just like He instituted in the Bible.

Lifesaver, i have to disagree with your logic. Remember in Revelation (written no later than 80 AD) there were already seven churches which God addressed? Each one had unique good qualities and also bad qualities. But God didn't destroy six of them, and leave only one denomination. However, like you say, there certainly are false faiths which teach unbiblical doctrine, but those are called cults. Every Christian church adheres to the essentials of God's Word. To date, there are thousands of different sub-denominations among Christians, but i believe that a person who seeks God will have God open Himself to them in any church (i.e. the differences between denominations are minor, and do not make them "different religions").

It is from the false notion that as long as it feels good it's right, which is dangerously advocated in this topic (by rejecting the doubtless statement that the truth is only one and therefore there can only be one right religion for everyone).

I don't know if that idea is promoted here. I think he means that it's not right for us to be hound dogs, scaring or chasing people into our church. There is an example which came to me when i just saw this topic. I'm a Christian, and i used to go to a Pentecostal church in the last place i lived, but here, i met a family which at first has been nice and i visited their church, but soon they began to badger me like crazy to continue going to their church. The reason i don't like their church is because they focus only on the petty minor things -- "women are forbidden in the Bible to wear pants," "men are supposed to have short hair," "the way to worship God is by clapping and running around the church," and several others. It's ridiculous, but they have some kind of an explanation for each of these beliefs. And they are convinced that their fifty-person congregation will be the only one saved. It sounded like a sect to me more than anything else. But the truth is that every church has things that are accepted and not accepted, and that goes for every denomination.

Excuse me for the long-windedness. I'm trying to say, Lifesaver, that it's best to not be dogmatic about minor subjects. The Bible doesn't decide our fashion and our haircuts, for example, so these things are left to our careful choosing. I believe that God looks at a person's motives and thoughts, so it's hard to fool Him with outward holiness or piety, like those people i mentioned. I'm sure every single church has people who will enter into heaven, and also people who will, to great sadness, die and go to hell. I pray that we will be in the category of the former.

Alex

 

[Lifesaver]

Excuse me for the long-windedness. I'm trying to say, Lifesaver, that it's best to not be dogmatic about minor subjects. The Bible doesn't decide our fashion and our haircuts, for example, so these things are left to our careful choosing. I believe that God looks at a person's motives and thoughts, so it's hard to fool Him with outward holiness or piety, like those people i mentioned. I'm sure every single church has people who will enter into heaven, and also people who will, to great sadness, die and go to hell. I pray that we will be in the category of the former.

We agree completely. There are honest people in all religions, and salvation is open to everyone (even if for baptism by desire). In other words, people may be saved, even though they are in a false religion. A man might be saved despite his religion being untrue.
That doesn't change the fact that there is one God only, and thus only one true religion. This is the only possible logical conclusion.

 

[Charlie V]

I just responded to the thread--while what this person is going through spiritually is truly an issue, I'm concerned with his physical condition. If he's really having the symptoms he listed, it might be a coincidence that he's suffering problems with the church and spiritually--he might also have an illness requiring doctors attention.

Any time I read someone saying thay have physical symptoms like this, I recommend seeking medical attention. I know all too well that people's physical problems aren't always "in our heads," sometimes they are symptoms of serious medical disorders. We should never trust our medical conditions to advice recieved on an internet chat board.

Charlie

 

[GnosticBodhi]

If two groups disagree, they can't both be right.

They all agree that Truth/God exists.

 

[Zaac]

Now you are making a confusion.
There is only one Church which God created, universal and inerrant. But it is divided in many branches, all united to the Holy See in Rome. The Church in Brazil, the Church in USA, the Church in France, are all part of the same Church. Likewise, my neighbourhood has a church, and some streets away there is another church; but both of these are part of the same Church.
You have mixed the meanings of the term, and was led by this confusion to believe that every group that says they believe in Jesus, even if they disagree on everything, is right.

Just so that I'm clear on what you're saying, what is this only one Church that God created? Clear that up for me.

You are saying that there are many paths to salvation. God condemns this view: the only path is Jesus Christ, and He only estabilished one Church, one Truth.
.

If I meant to say there are many paths to salvation, that's what I would have said. So I'm going to politely ask you not to assign anything to me that I did not say. I know that there is but ONE WAY. And that Way is Jesus Christ.

If two groups disagree, they can't both be right

Who said they were both right? I think someone said earlier that there probably is not a single denomination that is completely in line with God's Word dcotrinally. People who really want to align themselves with Christ will affiliate themselves with the denomination that they feel is closest to aligning all its doctrine with God's Word instead of being "born" into a denomination.

The people who idolize their skin colours are the same who think they were personally enlightened by God, who think God speaks directly to them. The Holy Catholic Church, created by God, has always condemned racism and sinful pride, much unlike separate groups and individuals, whose doctrines are always changing, and for whom what is true today ceases to be so tomorrow.

I guess this answers my first question. Show me please in God's Word where He placed the name Holy Catholic on His Church?

What's worse, some people are just plain hypocritical: they'll say it is wrong and unChristlike to say one Church is right and others wrong, but then they go on to say that Christianity (whatever they mean by that) as a whole is right and that anything else is false. There is not the least of coherence in this.

I didn't say that. There are some churches that are not aligned with God's Word. Jesus Christ, the Word that is HIM, is ALWAYS Right. That is the example to which we are to look. Now I can point out some glaring contradictions in several denominations and I can almost guarantee that those issues arose out of men creating their own ADDITIONAL doctrine to God's.

 

[Bradford]

Thread moved from General Apologetics to Liberal Theology

 

[seebs]

I believe we did. Did you read my reply?

Yes. I've yet to see any justification for conflating the Bible with God, and the Word is God, but nothing in Scripture ever says that Scripture is the Word.

 

[12volt_man]

I was raised baptist and married a devout Catholic woman. I attend Catholic church with her on occasion (I find the experience interesting if nothing else). The Catholic Church basically believes that it is folly for lay people to attempt to understand Jesus' teachings by only reading the Bible. Jesus did not write a Bible, He left a church. The Catholic Church.

From their point of view the Word of God is a living Word, that can only be properly understood and interpreted through the church hierarchy. IOW, God did not stop communicating with humans when the Bible was written. He is communicating everyday, through the Church.

So then, what's the difference between this and what Jim Jones taught?

 

[helmikaarina]

We are no better than the first followers of Jesus, mere men (1 Cor 3:4). And
All we need is love. Our first task as Christians is to let God love us, then it's possible to us to love too.

We see visible churches and congregations and denominations and whatever, God sees the invisible Church of Christ. Maybe we should try to look around with as God looks at us, with loving eyes.

 

[AngelusSax]

Yes. I've yet to see any justification for conflating the Bible with God, and the Word is God, but nothing in Scripture ever says that Scripture is the Word.

I too share this viewpoint, in that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word then became flesh in Jesus Christ.

The Bible tells us of Jesus, but is not Jesus. And surely you all can see where this then goes from there.

 

[Cassiopeia]

http://www.christianforums.com/t1299768-conversion-is-not-going-well.html

In this thread a young man describes becoming physically sick over a matter of faith.

I find this sickening in itself, that any church would be putting people in such a mindset as to think that anything outside their own church is damnnable and wrong. read what this young man describes and then tell me that the Catholic Church or the Eastern orthodox Church have any right to place such guild trips upon people!

No - they have NOT! Jesus and God are appalled by such selfishness coming from institutions who pretedn to help and save people!

This is absurd, these churches make people sick, as in this example! I wish they would stop condemming other churches and stop preaching that only with them lies salvation which is not true!

Thank you for ruining the religious experience of a young man!

[/end of rant]

It has been my own personal experience that situations like this indicate the individual is listening to much to the opinions of others and not listening to the bells going off in their own mind. This young man needs to take a time out from listening to people.

I think it is horrible for people who claim to be his friend to send him such emails as to express hatred for his choices. This is a common happening though with organized religion. People get too caught up in who is right and who is wrong. I hope things go better for him. I am not allowed to post on that forum but I will wish him well.
Casi

 

[snowydc2003]

I think somewhere in this thread we have lost sight of the fact that a person has been damaged by the christian faith. Do you not think that if he stayed away from the church (both types) for a little while and prayed, he might find the answer he is looking for and be able to gain a little perspective. He needs to heal before he can move on, and hopefully the churches in question will do the decent thing and leave him alone to make his own decision.

 

[Scholar in training]

God is one. Therefore, there can only be one true religion. And thus, one true Church, just like He instituted in the Bible.

I agree with the first two sentences, but not the third. After all, what did Jesus say to his disciples when they rebuked other Christians who were not part of their group specifically but were still casting out demons? He said not to stop them. We should only stop "Christians" if they are practicing something wrong, and if the apostles had the same elitist attitude that Catholics have today, then no one would've been saved! I go so far as to say that through all of their regulations and tradition, Catholics are like the Pharisees because they miss the whole point of Christianity (no, not all Catholics are like that, but the ones that are bug me)! I'm not saying that we should just accept anyone or anything as righteous or good; that would be wrong. But it's also wrong to discourage your brother if he is truly following the Lord.

 

[graphicsguyjon]

In short, no one has the right to judge. Only God.

Unfortunately, there are people world wide who believe themselves to be in a position of judgment on others. I believe this grows out of many things, but ultimately, it is pride. When we forget that we are saved by the grace of God, we start to lean on our own merits. And if the merits of others do match up with ours, that's when the judging begins.

IMHO, we could all use regular reminding of our salvation by grace, to teach us to stop focusing on what others are doing wrong, and focus instead on what we may do better/right.