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This is supposed to be a country of religious freedom

Paidiske

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Because the people who work in support of those services also want some time to rest.

In my experience, it's more that the people who do come to church at the traditional time, resist any change or attempt to do something new. They'd rather watch families walk away and then complain that they don't come.

Personally, I don't see something like this as persecution. As believers, we all have to decide what our priorities are. Some things will clash with church, and we have to choose between them; that's not necessarily either evil or an attempt by the people organising the clashing things to be unfair. It's just life.

If, as a Christian, I'm not prepared to inconvenience myself to the extent of finding a way to participate in my preferred hobby which fits around my worship commitments, what does that say about how important worship really is to me?
 
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RDKirk

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In my experience, it's more that the people who do come to church at the traditional time, resist any change or attempt to do something new. They'd rather watch families walk away and then complain that they don't come.

Adding an evening or off-day service is no skin off their noses.

Prior to covid, our church had been holding a Saturday evening service and three Sunday morning services. For many of the service support workers, particularly the singers and musicians, that was a day that stretched from 4 a.m. to 3 p.m. And that Saturday.

At this point, we have re-convened the Saturday service and two of the Sunday morning services. I'm one of the workers as well, and in our most recent meeting, the pastor announced a firm decision not to resume that third Sunday service.

Well...we cheered.

Personally, I don't see something like this as persecution. As believers, we all have to decide what our priorities are. Some things will clash with church, and we have to choose between them; that's not necessarily either evil or an attempt by the people organising the clashing things to be unfair. It's just life.

If, as a Christian, I'm not prepared to inconvenience myself to the extent of finding a way to participate in my preferred hobby which fits around my worship commitments, what does that say about how important worship really is to me?

I agree.
 
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Paidiske

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Adding an evening or off-day service is no skin off their noses.

You might say that, but that doesn't stop them resisting it fiercely. In my last parish, I had a number of people who stopped coming to Sunday morning services (because of kids' sport), and some in the community who worked Sundays who were interested in an evening service. The people who worshipped in the morning fiercely opposed providing an evening service. Go figure.
 
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com7fy8

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Personally, I don't see something like this as persecution. As believers, we all have to decide what our priorities are. Some things will clash with church, and we have to choose between them; that's not necessarily either evil or an attempt by the people organising the clashing things to be unfair. It's just life.
If Sunday morning is so desirable for having church . . . as a good time . . . I can see that this could be a good time for others to have sports.

There could be other things church and sports people value doing during the rest of their day, so they do not want sports with kids, or church, later in the day.

Ones might want church early because they have other things they value doing more than church, during the remainder of their day. And it could be like this for sports people, too . . . Including how they could want to get finished with other people's kids so they have time later for friends and their own families.

Each person can be different, to speak for one's own self, though:)

Why is it that church has to be Sunday morning? There could be a similar reason why adults want kids' sports on Sunday morning. And, for all I know, each group could be holding the same values dictating the relegating of church and kids to the same time . . . when both should be valued enough to get more time at other times.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yeah, I get how kids are missing church for games, plus parents want to be there for them and drive them.

But there are necessary workers, too, who miss being with their brothers and sisters in the morning. Why don't we have an after-work after-game service for ones occupied earlier during the day?

Because the people who work in support of those services also want some time to rest.

Actually many churches do provide those services; the Roman Catholic and some Anglican churches are particularly good about offering services at alternative times, for example, in the US large numbers of RC parishes have services on Sunday afternoon or evening, and also Saturday evening, and in London, there are several Anglican churches that celebrate their main choral Eucharist midweek, for example, St. Bartholomew the Great and St. Stephen Walbrook in square mile of The City of London (which not coincidentally, has had since the 1950s a very low residential population compared to the surrounding burroughs of Westminster, Southwark, Greenwich, etc). Catholic and Anglican cathedrals are also good about offering daily liturgies.

Conversely for many other churches, operating services at other times than their primary service is an impossibility as they lack either the resources or a sufficient congregation. For example, an Eastern or Oriental Orthodox church has the rule of one Divine Liturgy per altar, per priest, per communicant, per day; some churches do have multiple altars and thus one can find some cathedrals that serve multiple liturgies, for example, the Antiochian Orthodox Cathedral of St. Nicholas in Los Angeles has an English liturgy and an Arabic liturgy on Sunday morning. Most commonly, however, it is the lack of a viable congregation at times other than the main services, especially in the case of smaller Protestant and Orthodox parishes that may only have 20-50 active members.
 
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The Liturgist

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You might say that, but that doesn't stop them resisting it fiercely. In my last parish, I had a number of people who stopped coming to Sunday morning services (because of kids' sport), and some in the community who worked Sundays who were interested in an evening service. The people who worshipped in the morning fiercely opposed providing an evening service. Go figure.

I haven’t heard of that happening, but I can really understand and relate to it, insofar as they desired the unity of the church present for the main service.

However, as it happens I do disagree with it, both because more services can attract more people, and also, Anglican churches are supposed to have Evening Prayer and the revival of the Divine Office is something I, and the late liturgiologist Robert Taft SJ, regard as the most spectacular of many spiritual accomplishments of the Church of England, as the Breviary, and with it, Matins, Vespers, Compline, etc, of course become turned into something like a private devotion for priests, and conversely devotionals, like the Rosary, the Angelus and the Novena, became liturgized, in the Roman Catholic Church.
 
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The Liturgist

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Personally, I don't see something like this as persecution. As believers, we all have to decide what our priorities are. Some things will clash with church, and we have to choose between them; that's not necessarily either evil or an attempt by the people organising the clashing things to be unfair. It's just life.

If, as a Christian, I'm not prepared to inconvenience myself to the extent of finding a way to participate in my preferred hobby which fits around my worship commitments, what does that say about how important worship really is to me?

So, the thing is, with youth sports we aren’t really talking about a hobby per se. in the US, membership in these teams is often part of the Physical Education requirements of public schools, and is also the best way for athletic youths to stay in very good health vs. the more basic Physical Education; participation in youth sports impacts their total grade, and can even lead to scholarships for both private middle and high schools, and also for university, for those who are extremely talented.

Now, I disagree with this entire system; the whole system of youth and college athletics in the US is an industry which exploits parents and students respectively (college athletes do not participate in the substantial revenue generated by collegiate sports). Some youth sports, like cheerleading, are notorious for being dominated by one vendor operating under different brand names, and for having extremely lax safety standards; the number of children and young people injured in cheerleading, which is far more than merely waving pom poms and chanting, but rather involves complex and potentially dangerous acrobatics, is shocking.

However, in as much as I disagree with this system, it is not a vocation as performance in youth sports has a material impact on ones future standard of living and quality of life, including academic opportunities, military service opportunities (including non-combatant roles as medics or officers of the Public Health Service and National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, which are both led by uniformed military type commissioned officers following a Navy rank structure), and career opportunities.

It is for this reason that the recent trend, and it is a recent trend, to schedule sports events and even practice at times which conflict with church and synagogue services, something which would have been unthinkable in the past, I have to regard as persecution. Because if we were just talking youth recognition, its a case of, OK, fine, I get it, we have to make time for Christ. However, youth sports in the US is, unfortunately, much more important, and not in a way necessarily beneficial for the youth.
 
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Paidiske

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It is for this reason that the recent trend, and it is a recent trend, to schedule sports events and even practice at times which conflict with church and synagogue services, something which would have been unthinkable in the past, I have to regard as persecution.

I really think persecution is too strong a word unless it's deliberately being done to exclude people of particular faiths (and there's no reason to think that's the case, here). Insensitivity and lack of inclusiveness, perhaps, but not active persecution.

My sense - and granted the Australian landscape is different - is that this trend is more about lifestyle changes impacting the whole family. People work longer hours (and in more households, both parents work), having activities after school becomes harder, the weekend gets encroached upon because it's more likely to be possible for people to participate. It does make things more difficult for families, where both parents are often run ragged, but I'm not really sure it has much to do directly with changing attitudes to religious involvement
 
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The Liturgist

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I really think persecution is too strong a word unless it's deliberately being done to exclude people of particular faiths (and there's no reason to think that's the case, here). Insensitivity and lack of inclusiveness, perhaps, but not active persecution.

My sense - and granted the Australian landscape is different - is that this trend is more about lifestyle changes impacting the whole family. People work longer hours (and in more households, both parents work), having activities after school becomes harder, the weekend gets encroached upon because it's more likely to be possible for people to participate. It does make things more difficult for families, where both parents are often run ragged, but I'm not really sure it has much to do directly with changing attitudes to religious involvement

Ok, I get what you are saying, I can accept insensitivity and lack of inclusiveness, however, in the US, if such lack of inclusiveness amounts to discrimination on the grounds of religion it is illegal under the First Amendment (as indeed many of the Covid restrictions on worship were found to be illegal by the US supreme court, even if one might argue they were objectively justified).

The bill of rights is an extremely strong aspect of US law. Americans may seem to be entitled and self serving in a sense when you look at how we interact with the law and our expectations, and our litigiousness, but the reason for that is the absolute nature of the bill of rights, the fact that the losing party does not pay all the costs of a civil lawsuit, but rather these are paid by each side, unless the lawsuit is found to have been itself really legally dubious, in which case the judge can award attorneys fees to the defendent, and also in the US sovereignty is in principle distributed among the citizenry, with each citizen jointly holding, with the other citizens, the sovereignity of the nation*, thus being sovereign and subject, for the rule of law applies equally to all persons, and in effect, the Federal Government exercises according to the Constitution powers which would be equivalent to those that a regent would exercise on behalf of a monarch, but of course the US government is a democratically elected Republic, as opposed to a parliamentary democracy in the Commonwealth System, which we are close to conceptually but with more separation of powers (although Australia with its bicameral State Parliaments or Legislatures or whatever you call them, except in Queensland where the upper house was abolished, and with its strong senate, is unusually close to the United States system).

*Note this is emphatically not an endorsement of the insane and obnoxious “Sovereign citizen movement” in which people claim via conspiracy theories that they are themselves sovereigns and thus not subject to traffic stops by the police, et cetera, an absurd conspiracy theory which I have heard exists in Australia as well. For that matter, it is not an endorsement of the US system in which sovereignty rests with the citizens, who are subject to the laws and the Constitution, merely a characterization of how it differs, in terms of the bill of rights and this concept of “We the people”, from many other governments; for example, members of the Council of Europe can derogate from certain provisions in the European Charter of Human Rights during states of emergency, whereas constitutional provisions for such derogation in the US are extremely limited. For instance, the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII, which many Americans now regard as a moment of enormous shame, was likely illegal, but at the time you still had segregation, Jim Crow laws and other things later found to be illegal or else prohibited through legislation.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Such a contract amounts to religious discrimination and could be a violation of the First Amendment. The Adventists should sue them.
As an SDA, I can tell you that this happens more then people know. there are so many Jobs that will not accomadate.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I am not SDA, but I know that a number of you post here. I go to holy Mass on Sunday, but I still feel outrage at this story. The team was only asking for a three hour accommodation. What the secular authorities did to those boys is disgusting.

Alabama Seventh-Day Adventist School Forced to Forfeit Basketball Playoff Game — Time Change for Sabbath Denied
Alabama Seventh-Day Adventist School Forced to Forfeit Basketball Playoff Game -- Time Change for Sabbath Denied

it is never the position of the Catholic Church to force Sunday only worship. The Church has several Masses per day and prays seven times per day everyday.
Those boys should have been allowed to observe the Sabbath and play basketball after sunset. They are in my prayers

I am puzzled why they do not post their BB Record?
Athletics - Oakwood Adventist Academy
Home - Oakwood Adventist Academy
 
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Daniel Marsh

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There is an article entitled >

"Here's why AHSAA denied Oakwood Adventist Academy's religious exemption request"

This is in the Montgomery Advisor.

According to this report, the basketball organization has many schools and so they can not have an arrangement for changing schedules, or else it could get chaotic, with so many different teams possibly at times wanting to make their exceptions.

And each school in the organization has signed an agreement . . . it seems . . . not to even make a request for an exception. It appears the agreement includes that no school will petition . . . or forfeit > and every school signed this before entering the basketball association >

"Therefore, Oakwood agreed to follow the rules of the AHSAA and agreed to participate in all playoff games without petition, or forfeit. The statement was provided to the AHSAA in writing, and the AHSAA responded, in writing, accepting their agreement to participate in championship play, without petition, or forfeit."

There are 414 schools and 27 sports involved in the association's scheduling process, with girls sports and boys sports.

And I can see that there might be Jews who observe the Sabbath, in those schools.

So, I am curious how this school got to the playoffs without earlier problems with scheduling. Possibly, during the regular year they don't have weekend games.

College basketball games are broadcast on TV during Saturday in the daytime. So, if Sabbath observing Adventists or Jews or others become qualified to be college level or professional draftable players . . . they will have to make a choice between the Sabbath and playing . . . and/or practicing . . . in college and on professional teams.
AHSAA > Sports > Basketball > Boys Basketball Records
https://htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/files/561174966-ahsaa-letter-to-governor-ivey-1645834929.pdf
Their past Record is very poor Alabama High School Basketball History

Here is the truth of the matter Alabama High School Basketball History

They choose to make a show of it.

This is only their third year in the tournament. They were knocked out the first two years and barely made it into the tournament this time.
Alabama High School Basketball History
 
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Daniel Marsh

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We still have a responsibility to resist persecution in all forms, especially when that takes the form of attempts at suppressing the ability of children and families to worship.

That is NOT persecution friend.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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You might say that, but that doesn't stop them resisting it fiercely. In my last parish, I had a number of people who stopped coming to Sunday morning services (because of kids' sport), and some in the community who worked Sundays who were interested in an evening service. The people who worshipped in the morning fiercely opposed providing an evening service. Go figure.

I worship Jesus everyday. And, Families can worship in their home. Also, home bible studies have not suffered in my part of the world.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Bottom line it was a team showing their pride of a religious spirit by making a mountain out of very small pile of sand.

Their team agreed to a contract and failed to live up to it.

The Bible does NOT dictate what time on a day we are to worship. Also, with Zoom they can be at the game losing(based on their poor history record) and worshipping via Zoom at the same time. And, who knows the service cound be overheard by non-Christians. Thus a win, win, win.

 
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Daniel Marsh

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upload_2022-4-1_20-12-32.jpeg
 
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Paidiske

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I worship Jesus everyday. And, Families can worship in their home. Also, home bible studies have not suffered in my part of the world.

This is all true, but it's no substitute for gathering, worshipping and engaging in mission together as a church.

While it does seem to me that this is not such a large issue as has been suggested, there is a need for ongoing conversation about changing patterns of life and how churches ought to respond by adapting their worship offerings.
 
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The Liturgist

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This is all true, but it's no substitute for gathering, worshipping and engaging in mission together as a church.

While it does seem to me that this is not such a large issue as has been suggested, there is a need for ongoing conversation about changing patterns of life and how churches ought to respond by adapting their worship offerings.

I agree, although I would also argue Churches shouldn’t have to adapt to this particular kind of persecution (obviously I disagree with your view of the lack of significance of this type of issue). Ideally we need to be able to encourage their members to more forcefully assert their freedom of religion, but to our discredit most churches aside from some of the Eastern churches and also various cults have lost that level of influence.

That said, I do support additional services both for the benefit of people in vital occupations that preclude them from attending a main Eucharistic service on Sunday morning, or Saturday morning in the case of not only Adventists but Orthodox Christians, except for Armenians (for with the exception of the Armenians, whose canons preclude worshipping on days other than Sunday, presumably defined by ecclesiastical time, which is Vespers to Vespers tend to worship on Saturday mornings in the Great Lent in addition to Sunday, see Soul Saturdays), but also because people really ought to attend Vespers as well as Sunday morning services. Its a good measure of how spiritually healthy a congregation is.

Indeed repopularizing the Divine Office was really the main achievement of Anglicanism. Cranmer deserves enormous credit from implementing a system based on the ideas for Breviary reform proposed by Cardinal Quinones. Unfortunately outside of England the Divine Office seems critically endangered, and even within England its use has declined precipitously, perhaps as a result of the BBC broadcasting it, but the fact that several otherwise redundant churches in Central London like St. Stephen Walbrook have been able to attract people to it, and also to weekday Eucharists, reflects the need for churches to do what you suggest.

So I agree with you to that extent at least.
 
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