This is really making me angry!

[frenchdefense]

guilty people should go to jail for punishment, but deserve eternal mercy all the same. well if they're sorry.

Maybe even if their sorry:

What is it Willa Cahter said - Even the wicked get worse than they deserve

 

[LilyLayola]

Yeah the Church is full of sinners.

But then, I a sinner am also in it.

Try as I might, I didn't stop sinning the day I renewed my faith.

The reason to become part of the Church is Jesus Christ.

If he's not calling you to become a Catholic, don't.

However, if he is? Well, you'll have to decide.


Jim

Sexual Abuse isn't a sin, it a crime against every single person that is raped or molested. In my country and yours it is punishable by a long jail sentence and the perpertators are the most reviled people on the planet.
How many voices have been lost because the abuse drove them to suicide, because they couldn't tell anyone? How many have ruined lives because nobody believes them? How many teenage women were raped, then thrown out when they found themselves pregnant by their Priest?

By saying that it is sin you are equating it with having sex outside of marriage or using a condom with are not actual crimes.
Right now the news is of Catholic Priests abusing children in Germany and Switzerland and The Pope himself is implicated in the cover up in Germany. He was Arch-Bishop of Munich in 1980. Unless his letter fully and utterly condemns every single priest and every cover up in Ireland, his authority will be gone.
Someone else asked why it stops someone from being Catholic?
The Catholic Church is supposed to be a moral authority that we are supposed to obey. We are bad Catholics if we disobey. People are ex-communicated for getting a divorce even though they are beaten by their husband or if they are gay, if people vote for a Democrat in America they are threatened with ex-communication. Then they see this and wonder who can they have any moral authority and they walk away. If anyone has a family member that has been raped, repeatedly by a priest and that priest is what represented the RCC how can they ever trust the RCC again? If they found that someone knew about it and did nothing not only about their child but allowed it to continue with other children, how can they ever, ever trust another Priest again? How hard is that to understand?

How many of these priests that have raped children and made them sign secrecy have been ex-communicated? Everyone that has covered up has commited a crime too. Why is it a bigger sin to the Church for a Priest to break his vows and marry, that to rape a child ?
I personally haven't turned against the Catholic Church, because I belong to a good parish with priests but I am even less tolerant of hypocrasy. I hate the damage it does to our church and how it makes it so difficult to make the good it does stand out. In the UK the RCC is under attack from the Humanists, this scandal helps them to make a case.
I belong to a parish which has safeguarding policy and a Parish Priest who will not allow sexual allegations to ever be covered up. There are instructions of what to do and several names to contact, plus the local authorites phone number, it is on the parish website and on the wall of every building the church owns. I know he believes there should be prosecutions. Nobody works with children without police cheaks either.

 

[LilyLayola]

Cardinal Law was demoted from being bishop of an Archdioceses, to being put in charge of a shrine which is usually given to priest.

He's also placed under the watchful eye of his superior the Pope.

In a secular analogy, this is akin to a VP of an corporation, being brought to headquarters as a staff manager, with his office adjacent to the CEO's.

Jim

Yes life at the Vatican and a demotion is the same as twenty years in isolation in a US prison. Cardinal Law must feel so harshly punished and I am sure his victims are overwhelmed by the justice handed out on their behalf. BTW do children ever go to that shrine?
He covered up a crimes. Maybe parents were in someway looking for an easy way out and maybe they wanted to protect their children from a trial.

 

[Antigone]

Yes life at the Vatican and a demotion is the same as twenty years in isolation in a US prison. Cardinal Law must feel so harshly punished and I am sure his victims are overwhelmed by the justice handed out on their behalf. BTW do children ever go to that shrine?
He covered up a crimes. Maybe parents were in someway looking for an easy way out and maybe they wanted to protect their children from a trial.

True. Here is how a lot of people feel about it over here:

The Guardian - A leader who wished to end the crisis would sack Cardinal Bernard Law.

 

[benedictaoo]

Does the Church really excommunicate for divorce? I am divorced and remarried in a different (Episcopal) church. I am currently going through the process of an annulment, and while I still attend mass regularly, I will not receive communion until the annulment is final and I can get my marriage blessed. The priest told me that some in my position do receive communion, but many feel it is better to wait.

You excommunicate yourself when you divorce (presuming it's you who wanted the divorce). You can confess and receive communion again but if you remarry wit out an annulment and/or remarry in a different church- you excommunicate yourself all over again.

 

[benedictaoo]

good post but unfortunately although 'they' are high and mighty it will still go over their heads- the fact is probably a lot of parents did go to the police and were redirected by police or prosecuters back to the Church and then turned a blind eye, and this is fact; that is exactly the case in some of the Boston incidents= the DA would refer the parents back to th bishop and close the books

but dont expct charity, understanding, empathy, consideration of context froma lot of people who just want another excuse to deal with the skeletons in their own closets relating to the dogma of the Church.

I suspect there is more to this from some here then some 'outrage' over abused children

Excuse me? You mind telling me what dogmatic skeletons I have in my closet? I do not have a single issue with any of the Church's dogmas... I know it's not the Catholic faith that molested children but mere mortal men who did.

But the fact still remains, that apparently will fly right over "thier" high and mighty head... they all know NOW what they did was wrong and they are doing NOTHING to right the wrong --NOW-- that it's out in the open but saying "we're sorry".

That, in the opinion of many just doesn't serve justice... justice demand more be done.

but I don't expect charity, understanding, empathy, consideration from a lot of people who simply just lack it across the board. BUt I really don't expect those who are just "that way" to comprehend why it makes a person angry.

 

[benedictaoo]

what do you mean give up the priest ?

they took the money to the bank- the fact is that no DA would prosecute once the parents got their blackmail money- letting the priest go so other kids would get snared

and that is exactly what it is- when M Jackson got accused the first time he paid millions and the criminal charges disappeared, because of that CA changed the laws

In one of the diocese that made settlements to victims, the DA ordered them to hand over the names of the preists who did the molestations in that dioceses, the diocese refused, trying to claim some sort of nonsense that it was their constitutional right not to.

Any intelligent person can conclude they really aren't trying to do right, just have their sicko preists get away with their crimes and they were willing to, like Jackson, pay a boat load of money to make it just go away.

Yeah, uh huh, like I'm going to be their apologist.. like heck I am. If the Church love kids so much, then pony up the names of the creeps who molested kids.

But no, the bishops hide behind the constitution to protect child molesters. You know what that's called? Obstruction of justice.

 

[LilyLayola]

I am not sure people on this board realise how bad it is in Europe right now, with more and more scandal coming out. And the Pope is not going to look good.

I think the treatment of Cardinal Bernard Law allowed people to get complacant and convinced victims that they were not taken seriously.
The welfare of the clergy was put above that of the victims. No it has come back a bite them all hard. The way that the abuse has been uncovered in Ireland, has given others the courage to speak out too.

 

[benedictaoo]

what do you mean 'we' ?

why dont you read what Jesus states about adultery and divorce- think the Church should go against the teachings of Jesus ?

But they do... Woe to anyone who causes the little ones to sin, it would be better for them to have a mill stone tied around their neck and thrown into the sea...

Guess what? Jesus isn't down with preist who molests children, that goes against His teachings and he's not down with the bishops who protect the preists, who refuse to let the victims heal...

and the Church does not excommunicate- God is the one who excommunicates, no paperwork neccessary

Wrong- o. We excommunicate ourselves anytime we commit mortal sin. The sin of murder will require a bishop lift the excommunication, but we excommunicate ourselves when we sin.

 

[benedictaoo]

I am not sure people on this board realise how bad it is in Europe right now, with more and more scandal coming out. And the Pope is not going to look good.

I think the treatment of Cardinal Bernard Law allowed people to get complacant and convinced victims that they were not taken seriously.
The welfare of the clergy was put above that of the victims. No it has come back a bite them all hard. The way that the abuse has been uncovered in Ireland, has given others the courage to speak out too.

that is it. exactly it. If the Church would have just learned form the whole fiasco... but what do we see them do? The same darn thing. Cover up and obstruct justice.

 

[benedictaoo]

No, of course not. My point is that destroying another human being is as sinful as adultery and divorce. So if you're going to excommunicate one for divorce, you better do something with the other who molests a child. At the VERY LEAST remove them from the priesthood.

Well you know... crazy me, if it were I who molested kids and/or covered it up and/or sent a molester off to molest a fresh bunch of kids.. crazy me, if I were truly sorry for what I did, I would turn myself in and take what ever punishment was coming to me... isn't taking full responsibility for our sins/crimes/actions all a part of truly being sorry? I thought it was.... oh but maybe that's only for the laity...

It really ticks me off to think, wait- I have to make sure when I sin, I have to watch that my contrition is proper and make up for the wrongs I do... but a preist can do this and all he has to do is offer Mass for his victims?? !! ?? what ??? the heck is that?

 

[benedictaoo]

apples and oranges winter- the Church does hold that one is seperated from God for abusing a child or commiting adultery clergy or not

either can be forgiven in confession if they are repentant- in his case people fall again and again and can be forgiven- you can be sorry and not intend to sin again and then fall into temptation later

in the case of divorce and remarriage- the person cannot state they are sorry and be forgiven if hey have no intention of righting the situation and continuing involved in the sin... if you remarry and it is not right by the Church you are commiting adultery, therefore excommunicated while you continue in perpetual sin

But according to the artical that Michie cited, a preist can confess molesting children and the preist hearing the confession can not order him as his penance to turn himself in... so, according to the article, a good penance is to offer Mass for the victims... Gee.

I'm not undermining the power of the Mass by any means but if they are "forgiven" by God for this serious CRIME and the Church protects them from the civil law... then they receive no justice at all for what they did. They go on their merry way, no jail, they get to pass go and collect $200.00.

and you really question anyone who would be mad? Seriously? You question it?

Keep in mind, you are only being asked, can you understand why some of us are angry over this... can you understand why it makes some people angry?

I'll give you another hint- becuase it is unjust and unfair.

If a preist can commit a crime and NOT go to jail for it- and he can confess it and NOT go to hell- then why in the heck can I NOT knock off a bank and NOT go to jail and still go to heaven? Why can't my penalty just be offering Mass for the bank I robbed?

 

[benedictaoo]

Sexual Abuse isn't a sin, it a crime against every single person that is raped or molested. In my country and yours it is punishable by a long jail sentence and the perpertators are the most reviled people on the planet.
How many voices have been lost because the abuse drove them to suicide, because they couldn't tell anyone? How many have ruined lives because nobody believes them? How many teenage women were raped, then thrown out when they found themselves pregnant by their Priest?

By saying that it is sin you are equating it with having sex outside of marriage or using a condom with are not actual crimes.
Right now the news is of Catholic Priests abusing children in Germany and Switzerland and The Pope himself is implicated in the cover up in Germany. He was Arch-Bishop of Munich in 1980. Unless his letter fully and utterly condemns every single priest and every cover up in Ireland, his authority will be gone.
Someone else asked why it stops someone from being Catholic?
The Catholic Church is supposed to be a moral authority that we are supposed to obey. We are bad Catholics if we disobey. People are ex-communicated for getting a divorce even though they are beaten by their husband or if they are gay, if people vote for a Democrat in America they are threatened with ex-communication. Then they see this and wonder who can they have any moral authority and they walk away. If anyone has a family member that has been raped, repeatedly by a priest and that priest is what represented the RCC how can they ever trust the RCC again? If they found that someone knew about it and did nothing not only about their child but allowed it to continue with other children, how can they ever, ever trust another Priest again? How hard is that to understand?

How many of these priests that have raped children and made them sign secrecy have been ex-communicated? Everyone that has covered up has commited a crime too. Why is it a bigger sin to the Church for a Priest to break his vows and marry, that to rape a child ?
I personally haven't turned against the Catholic Church, because I belong to a good parish with priests but I am even less tolerant of hypocrasy. I hate the damage it does to our church and how it makes it so difficult to make the good it does stand out. In the UK the RCC is under attack from the Humanists, this scandal helps them to make a case.
I belong to a parish which has safeguarding policy and a Parish Priest who will not allow sexual allegations to ever be covered up. There are instructions of what to do and several names to contact, plus the local authorites phone number, it is on the parish website and on the wall of every building the church owns. I know he believes there should be prosecutions. Nobody works with children without police cheaks either.

and about the pregnant women by preists... I wonder how the sexual abuse apologist will all react to allegations that some bishops made women get abortions.

I'm not saying I know of any proven case but I know of allegations that were made.

 

[benedictaoo]

True. Here is how a lot of people feel about it over here:

The Guardian - A leader who wished to end the crisis would sack Cardinal Bernard Law.

where he is wanted by a grand jury

To the apologists.. its' called obstruction of justice.

if the good bishop, according to Jim, did nothing wrong, then he wouldn't mind clearing it up for the grand jury... would he?

 

[LilyLayola]

If someone has been raped by a Priest, they are then expected to accept the Host from them as an apology? What an absolute insult. I think most victims of abuse would be physically ill at the prospect of being in the same room as the perperator, let alone receive the host from them, which is touched by the same hands that touched them. How can The Euchurist even be Holy if the Celebrant is commiting crimes against children without punishment? The Bishop may give him absolution, but that is telling him that what he is doing isn't so bad, he can be forgiven and protected. By turning a blind eye, every bishop that has failed to report it has given the priest the excuse to carry on abusing. Does the Priest also turn just give absolution when he hears a confession from a man that is raping his daughter or son?

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the priests themselves weren't sexually abused, that is usually were it starts but they didn't talk about then either. However if the Bishops were told and did nothing, it is every bit as criminal as a mother turning a blind eye while her daughter is being raped continually by her father.
What about the young girls that got pregnant and couldn't tell out of fear? What about those that tried to tell and got thrown into those institutions, only to be abused further or ex-communicated if she has an abortion, while he can confess, to getting her pregnant, do nothing and still be a priest. Personally I hope this is a watershed moment for the RCC and they re-think a lot of things. And Cardinal Brady has to resign or fired.

 

[benedictaoo]

The host is unaffected by a priest's sins/crimes. He could be the worse creep on the planet and as long as he performs the words of consecration correctly, the Host is Christ and Jesus endures all that, having a creepy preist say Mass, so we can receive Him. This speaks to the love and mercy of Jesus for us, the laity. He allows Himself to be held in the hands of a creep for you and for me... just as he allows a person in grave sin to consume the Host... He endures it all for us.

So, I would accept the Host becuase i know it's Jesus and what He went trough just so I could have Him... just as if I had to have a creep preist absolve me of my own sins, I would becuase I know the preist sins have nothing to do with absolution.

Now I would seek another parish and preist but if it were an emergency- or if this were literally the only priest around.

I can separate the man from the sacraments. My faith and the grace that comes to us through the sacraments is the one thing I would never allow a preist to take form me. If we begin to do that, then the enemy as truly won.

 

[LilyLayola]

If I have been raped by that priest I couldn't receive the host if he was offering it, anymore than I could bear to be in his sight. When they are saying Mass for the victims as penance that is what they are asking of the victims. If I knew a Priest was a child rapist, I would not accept the host, I wouldn't be in his church either and I would hope that he would never, ever be allowed to serve as a priest. If a Priest can abuse a child and that is not considered breaking his vow of chastity, he can serve, while the the family gave thrown out of the church if the say anything. The child can be branded a liar.
If a Eurchurist server was known to be living in perpetual sin, they would not be allowed to continue to serve.
I am fortunate that I come from a parish that does not have creepy priests, they are all lovely men and one that has the phone number of the local authorities on display for anyone to find, if anyone if even threatened with sexual abuse.

 

[benedictaoo]

Well I'm sorry to hear that Lily... the preist is not the Host and can not effect it what so ever...

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes life at the Vatican and a demotion is the same as twenty years in isolation in a US prison. Cardinal Law must feel so harshly punished and I am sure his victims are overwhelmed by the justice handed out on their behalf. BTW do children ever go to that shrine?
He covered up a crimes. Maybe parents were in someway looking for an easy way out and maybe they wanted to protect their children from a trial.

Cardinal Law did not break any laws. The Attorney General of the Massachusetts investigated the Archdioceses and could not find any
criminal charges that could be brought against Cardinal Law or his office.

So when you accuse a person for committing a crime, especially the crime you're accusing him of, you better have something to back it up with, otherwise you're guilty of slander, which is a sin.

Jim

 

[benedictaoo]

Cardinal Law did not break any laws. The Attorney General of the Massachusetts investigated the Archdioceses and could not find any
criminal charges that could be brought against Cardinal Law or his office.

So when you accuse a person for committing a crime, especially the crime you're accusing him of, you better have something to back it up with, otherwise you're guilty of slander, which is a sin.

Jim

Jim, he is wanted by a grand jury...