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This is not a personal attack...just a point

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Follower of Christ, Apr 7, 2003.

  1. Follower of Christ

    Follower of Christ Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a

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    You know, I really dont even have to try to show how unscriptural you are, you are doing fine all by yourself.

    This one did strike me though.

    ''Where did you aver get the idea that the Lord wants you to bow to him?''


    One could probably do a simple text search of the bible for ''bow'' or something similar and find quite a few passages showing that God does indeed want His people to bow to Him.

    ''Every knee SHALL bow and every tongue confess....''
     
  2. Gracchus

    Gracchus Senior Veteran

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    Leaving out references to the bent stick for shooting arrows I found this.

    (Nothing about bowing being a requirement, only walking.)

    Jesus said nothing that has been recorded in your holy book about bowing, and Paulus was a Roman.&nbsp; An interesting exercise.&nbsp;
     
  3. Gracchus

    Gracchus Senior Veteran

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    Follower, do you still follow? Anyway, thanks for the tip.
     
  4. Gracchus

    Gracchus Senior Veteran

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    Follower said:
    That was not a personal attack...just a point.
     
  5. Follower of Christ

    Follower of Christ Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a

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    -Declare and bring near; yea, let them consult together. Who has revealed this of old; who has told it from then? Is it not I, Jehovah? And there is no God other than Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none except Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the Word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
    (Isaiah 45:21-23 LITV)


    -O come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before Jehovah our Maker.
    (Psalms 95:6 LITV)


    -but Jehovah who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a stretched out arm, you shall fear Him, and you shall bow yourselves to Him, and you shall sacrifice to Him;
    (2 Kings 17:36 LITV)


    With what shall I come before Jehovah, to bow myself before the loftiness of God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves, sons of a year?
    (Micah 6:6 LITV)



    -And Jehoshaphat bowed his nose to the earth, and all Judah and the ones living in Jerusalem fell down before Jehovah, to bow themselves to Jehovah.
    (2 Chronicles 20:18 LITV)


    All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn back to Jehovah; and all the families of the nations shall worship before You. For the kingdom is Jehovah's; and He is the ruler among the nations. All the fat ones of the earth have eaten, and have worshiped; all those going down to the dust shall bow before Him; and He kept not His own soul alive.
    (Psalms 22:27-29 LITV)


    The mountains melted like wax before the face of Jehovah, before the face of Jehovah of the whole earth. The heavens declare His righteousness and all the people see His glory. All who serve graven images are shamed, those who boast themselves in idols; all gods bow down before Him.
    (Psalms 97:5-7 LITV)


    I got tired of looking, sorry :)








    -And he did evil in the eyes of Jehovah, as his father Manasseh did; and Amon sacrificed to all the graven images that his father Manasseh had made, and served them. And he did not bow before Jehovah, like the humbling of his father Manasseh, for Amon himself multiplied guilt.
    (2 Chronicles 33:22-23 LITV)



    -For you shall not bow to another god, for Jehovah whose name is Jealous, He is a jealous God;
    (Exodus 34:14 LITV)
     
  6. Gracchus

    Gracchus Senior Veteran

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    (Isaiah 45:21-23 LITV)

    This is an observation of fact, and not an order.

    (Psalms 95:6 LITV)

    This is an exhortation from the psalmist, not a requirement from the Lord.

    (2 Chronicles 20:18 LITV)

    This is narrative. It happened, it does not say the Lord required it.

    (Psalms 22:27-29 LITV)

    This is again, the psalmist.

    (Psalms 97:5-7 LITV)

    Which is to say, all the idols are cast down before him.

    (2 Chronicles 33:22-23 LITV)

    Manasseh did bow before the Lord in his guilt, Amon did not.

    (Exodus 34:14 LITV)

    This does not say to bow to the Lord. It says not to bow to another god.

    (2 Kings 17:36 LITV)

    Now, the word that the KJV renders as "worship" is "shachah" which does indeed imply "crouch, stoop, or bow" but this is enjoined of the Israelites. I am not Jewish. Please note that I have bowed before the Lord willingly, but he did not require it of me. I have made a separate covenant. I ask nothing of the Lord, and he does not require the impossible of me.

    The following calls for special comment.

    (Micah 6:6 LITV)

    You left out some context.

    This says quite plainly what is required, and it does not mention sacrifice, prayer, kneeling, or falling on your face.

    And then Follower said,
    You give up? You need to develop some staying power. :clap:
     
  7. Follower of Christ

    Follower of Christ Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a

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    All I can say is if you can find THAT many excuses, youre problem goes much deeper than anything mere bible study can fix.
    You seem to WANT to find a reason NOT to bow before Him.


    ''Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the Word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.''

    If you can call THAT an observation and not an order, you most definetly have an athority issue that I am not equipped to deal with.




    How about this, is this an observation?
    Maybe its merely a request..
    Or maybe I am interpreting it my way and not the ways He meant it...

    For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God."



    As I said, the problem is not that He doesnt say to bow, just that you will find any excuse not to (for now, anyway :) )
     
  8. Gracchus

    Gracchus Senior Veteran

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    So you are saying&nbsp;that not all answers are to be found in your holy book?&nbsp;

    I don't need a reason, either to bow or not to bow.&nbsp;

    It is an observation.&nbsp;You admit that you are not equipped?&nbsp; Perhaps you are not hopeless&nbsp;after all, just a little slow.

    This is testimony that&nbsp;someone has quoted the Lord.


    And you accuse me of rebelling against the authority of the Lord, (an ad hominem argument) because I do not bow to your authority, which you have presumptuously assumed to be identical with the Lord's.&nbsp;You accuse me&nbsp;even though&nbsp;you do not know me. And I need no excuse either to bow or not to bow.&nbsp;

    You have not addressed the very clear statement of Micah 6:8.&nbsp;

    Deal with it, Follower. You're trying to add something that just isn't there. It is the humility that is required, not some physical action, which is meaningless anyhow,&nbsp;unless freely offered. Either my interpretation is correct, or an&nbsp;inconsistency has popped up in your inerrant scripture.&nbsp; Remember, I am neither Christian nor Jew.&nbsp;I can choose or reject as the Lord gives me discernment.&nbsp;

    I bear witness:&nbsp;

    You legalists and literalists&nbsp;would cast stumbling blocks in the path of&nbsp;seekers.&nbsp; You require belief&nbsp;that matches yours, and is not required by the Lord.&nbsp;Your faith is&nbsp;a painted pillar, it is all decoration, and supports nothing.&nbsp;You seek no more, and require companions in belief to assuage your fear because the&nbsp;Lord is not with you, only your idol of paper and ink.&nbsp; I am alone with the Lord and answer to&nbsp;Him.

    His (X) Mark
    &nbsp;

    By the way, why is this thread in the "Science, Creation, and Evolution" forum?&nbsp;

    Could it be that the Lord&nbsp;has sent you to me for instruction?&nbsp; No, of course not.&nbsp; You already know it all, even my heart, which is known only to the Lord.

    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;



    &nbsp;
     
  9. Follower of Christ

    Follower of Christ Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a

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    hmmm, ''in my Holy Book...''

    I understand completely now :)

    Obviously you dont, but I am really getting tired of people claiming to be ''christian'' and then denying the athority of scripture.
    People think for some reason that ''christian'' is some generic religous term that includes just about anyone who believes just about anything.



    And yes, I am completey, thoroughly helpless.
    I have seen too much to ever turn away from THE TRUE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.
    No fake gospels will ever compel me. Want to know why??
    Because I know that God wants His people to BOW to Him and I have no issue in doing it. :)
    Actually you've convinced me that I dont bow to Him nearly enough. So, in an ironic sort of way, thank you for teaching me that I need to bow before my King even more. :bow:

    ''For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in Heaven and on earth is named... ''
    (Ephesians 3:14-15 LITV)

    Paul (Saul) was a Roman citizen, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, if memory serves.
    I fail to see in one of your earlier posts what this point was indicating.



    Gracchus;
    ''Remember, I am neither Christian nor Jew. I can choose or reject as the Lord gives me discernment''

    FOC:
    then obviously we are talking my apples (God) and your non-existant Oranges (whatever your ''lord'' is)



    Gracchus:
    ''I bear witness:
    You legalists and literalists would cast stumbling blocks in the path of seekers. You require belief that matches yours, and is not required by the Lord....''



    The Apostle Paul:

    ''I marvel that you so soon are being moved away from Him who called you into the grace of Christ, to another gospel, which is not another, but some are troubling you, and desiring to pervert the gospel of Christ.

    But even if we or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel to you beside what we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel to you beside what you have received, let him be accursed.

    For now do I persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I would not be a servant of Christ. And, brothers, I make known to you the gospel which was preached by me, that it is not according to man. For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it except by a revelation of Jesus Christ.

    (Galatians 1:6-12 MKJV)
     
  10. Gracchus

    Gracchus Senior Veteran

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    But do you not deny the authority of Micah 6:8? And if they love justice and mercy, and accept reproof humbly, what does the label matter, are such as these not acceptable to the Lord?


    Since I deny Christianity why bring it up?

    I am not a Christian because:

    I do not believe Jesus is the only son of God. (All are children of God, even you.)

    I do not accept that he was born of a virgin. (I don't even believe it matters.)

    I do not believe in vicarious atonement. (The Lord will judge my fault and my merit, I rejoice in the justice of the Lord.)



    It is my understanding, that by definition, a Christian must accept these things. Of course, Jesus wasn't a Christian either. He was a Jewish teacher and reformer, who reached out to those who had been cast out and despised by the literalists and legalists.

    If you would accept the Lord and walk in His way, you would be granted discernment, to know the true and the false. You are helpless because you cling to your idolatry.


    There are both apples and oranges in the Lord's garden, and every manner of good fruit. Why would you claim one tree as your own? Are not all trees the Lord's?

    I understand. There are tremors at the base of the dark idol in your heart, and you must bow before it to reassure yourself.

    It is not bowing that the Lord requires, Follower. It is humility. Why will you not deal with what is plainly stated in your scripture?

    &nbsp;

    &nbsp;

    &nbsp;
     
  11. Follower of Christ

    Follower of Christ Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a

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    sorry.....:)
     
  12. Follower of Christ

    Follower of Christ Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a

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    Well then, you stand exactly where I presumed.
    If you do not believe those things, then youre are right, you are NOT a Christian.

    Saying that Jesus was not christian is a moot point as the term wasnt even used until after his death.


    ''And finding him, he brought him to Antioch. And it happened to them a whole year they were assembled in the church. And they taught a considerable crowd. And the disciples were first called Christian in Antioch.''
    (Acts 11:26 MKJV)

    But He taught His disciples and they spread His words.
    That teaching was the Good News (Gospel).
    Those who follow THAT teaching and NO other are ''Christians.

    Obviously that isnt a problem to you as you do not claim Christianity as your faith.

    This really puts us on two different playing fields, so I am not sure how to proceed if at all.

    I will not back down in my faith. I will not change my course.
    So is there any point in continuing our conversation?
    Are you going to change your views?
    If not then we have a stalemate.


    If any doubt the importance of the scripture, I would have you read these words.

    ''All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work. ''
    (2 Timothy 3:16-17 MKJV)


    It seems rather pointless to say one is a christian and then pretend as if the scriptures are not important when those who were inspired of God to write stated that they are.
     
  13. Gracchus

    Gracchus Senior Veteran

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    Think of it this way. He wouldn't be able to eat dinner with you because you are not Jewish.

    Follower said:
    Paul was a profiteer, not a prophet. Those who knew Jesus cast him out.

    Follower said:
    I am fascinated that you keep insisting that all scripture is inspired by God, and yet you refuse to deal with

    Lurkers, take note. Legalists, and literalists were those Jesus called "lawyers".

    Follower demands of others every jot and tittle of scripture, but ignores the same scripture when it offends his idolatry.

    Follower, you are convicted by your own silence.



     
  14. Follower of Christ

    Follower of Christ Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a

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    Back in the mid to late 80's I got into studying the New age Movement as it was called then.

    You so much remind me of the new age ''Gurus'' I read so much about.

    Taking the bits and pieces of different theologies as you see fit, not quite commiting yourself to anything. Wandering aimlessly through your meaningless existence, trying to find truth in something, yet never accepting any truth that doesnt fit your idea of what it should be.

    The gospel of Jesus Christ just doesnt work that way.
    Jesus wants commitment.
    And if you would just take the time to read the Bible and ask GOD to help you understand, He would in no way turn you away.
    He would flood you with so much truth you would not be able to contain it.


    ''And you shall seek and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. ''
    (Jeremiah 29:13 LITV)


    I have told you, I cannot change my path.
    God has shown me far too much for me to ever turn my back on Him.
    You think that everything I believe is based solely on words on pages?
    It was and still would be, but now it is so much more.
     
  15. lucaspa

    lucaspa Legend

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    Creationists/Biblical literalists are worshipping a god that they invented.

    Therefore, the answer to your question "are we all worshipping the same God" is "No."
     
  16. lucaspa

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    8th April 2003 at 12:23 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #13

    I did not say I thought you were a J.W.

    If you used a J.W. for your study on the trinty, then your view is very distorted
    .

    I didn't state that, either.&nbsp; Once again your reading comprehension is poor and you jumped to a conclusion.&nbsp; Here is what I said:

    ]"I had to research Trinity in some depth during a discussion with some Jehovah's Witnesses a few years ago."

    That says nothing whether I used a JW for my study, only that I researched Trinity.&nbsp;

    Read what is written, not what you want to be there.&nbsp; Of course, that explains a lot about your interpretation of the Bible and why you consistently ignore Genesis 2:4b.&nbsp; You read only what you want to be there, and not what is actually there.

    That does not quite fit the normal christian veiw of the triune God.

    Jehovah's Witnesses do not have the orthodox Christian view of the triune God.&nbsp; They are a "resurrection" of the Arian view -- named after Bishop Arius -- in the 400s.

    Another concept you don't seem to have is that, in order to refute an idea, you have to know what the idea is. Accurately.&nbsp; That means that I have to know what JW beliefs really are in order to understand how they are different from orthodox Christianity.

    That doesn't mean I have to agree with them, but I do need to understand them accurately.

    You would do well to realize that and research evolution so that you understand it accurately before you try to argue against it.&nbsp; It would save you embarrassment for arguing against a strawman.
     
  17. lucaspa

    lucaspa Legend

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    Why don't you answer the&nbsp;questions&nbsp;I ask?&nbsp;This seems to be a one-way street for you.

    So, I'll put my simple questions again.&nbsp; Please do me the courtesy of an answer:

    "And I know about 1 John 5:7.
    I have studied extensively the different texts
    .

    In that case you know what happened. Why did you pretend differently? Why did you try to pass off the verse as genuine when your study of the texts told you it was an (innocent) interpolation?&nbsp;&nbsp;You throw the word "deceiver" at me a lot.&nbsp; How is what you did not deception?"

    Three simple questions.&nbsp; Answer please.
     
  18. lucaspa

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    You are desribing the Trinity vs Arianism fight.&nbsp; Trinity is 3 personas in one ousia, to use the Greek terms.

    But dissension in the Christian ranks arose much earlier than this.&nbsp; This was simply the first time Christians wielded political power (Constantine made Christianity the state religion) and was therefore able to use the police power of the state to enforce one view over others.

    Yeshu ben Joseph (the human) was never at all clear as to what his exact relationship with Yahweh was.&nbsp; Which is why Christianity has had such different Christologies through its history.&nbsp; Yeshu often referred to himself as "Son of Man" but, if that phrase had a particular meaning in 30 AD, it was lost by the time the gospels were written.&nbsp; So several different Christologies vied for acceptance in the early Church.

    Saul, of course, never knew the historical Yeshu.&nbsp; All his information came from the vision of the risen Jesus.&nbsp; So his Christology differed significantly from that of the Jerusalem disciples.&nbsp; Since he preached to Gentiles unfamiliar with Judaism, he used an edited version of Judaism as his backdrop to Christianity.&nbsp; Saul, as Paul, essentially invented a new religion on the fly.&nbsp; And a religion that does not always correspond to the teachings of Yeshu.

    One thing that still troubles Christianity is that people forget that you can disagree with Paul and some of his specific policies -- such as the role of women in church and homosexuality -- without disagreeing with Christ or Christianity.
     
  19. lucaspa

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    9th April 2003 at 11:09 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #28

    You're right. We dont believe any of it.
    I have already heard the ''Jesus was an essene'' thing.
    Cant quite tell if thats what youre getting at, but an in depth study of those nutcases would show Jesus would not have been one of them
    .

    Whether Yeshu was an Essene or not is a moot point.&nbsp; The indisputable point is that several Essene doctrines are incorporated in the gospels and Christianity: Satan as a power nearly equal to God, a never-ending battle between good and evil on earth, a final battle of good vs evil.&nbsp;

    I want to let any Christians know that read this previous post that these are things made up by men to cause doubt as to who Christ is, nothing more.

    There has been considerable doubt as to the exact nature of Yeshu/Jesus throughout the history of Christianity.&nbsp; You have one belief, but it is not the only Christian belief.&nbsp;

    Any Christians who may start questioning, do a google search to see what the ''Essenes" believed.

    Yes, please do.&nbsp; You will see how much of that is present in evangelical Christianity today.
     
  20. lucaspa

    lucaspa Legend

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    By the gospels it was the Romans who executed Yeshu. And yes, he was executed for suspicion of leading a rebellion.&nbsp; "Messiah" in those days had a definite meaning: a person that Yahweh would use to drive out all invaders.&nbsp; So when Yeshu allowed himself to be addressed as "king of the Jews" he set himself in opposition to Rome.&nbsp; It didn't help that he had two Zealots -- guerrilla fighters against Roman rule -- among his disciples.

    However, the Midrashic writings about Yeshu have a very different story about how he was killed.&nbsp; In the Jewish writings Yeshu was not executed by the Romans, but by the Jews. They stoned him to death for the crime of apostasy.
     
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