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This Is My Fireproof Thread

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One thing that I thing that has to be noted as a very important difference though, in how Christ led, was that Christ WAS indeed wiser than his disciples. He had access to all wisdom. In the case of husband and wife, both have access to the mind of Christ, and neither has some specia; knowledge that the other doesn't have access to, and I think that is where some issues come into play. If a man acts like he knows more than a woman, and comes accross to her like a teacher, that is really condescending, unless it genuinely is a subject he knows more about. Being a man, doesn't give him that extra wisdom or knowledge, just by his being a man. Tbh, there are very specific things, that do have to be taken into account, in regards to time period. For instance, In the Jewish culture, where the Gospel came from, men had been the only ones allowed to learn the scriptures, so it made sense that they would have to be the ones to teach their wives. The New Testament church was radical in a lot of ways, including that women were now sitting beside their husbands in a church assembly. This was new, and of course men would have to teach them, and women who were just learning the scriptures would have been wrong to teach the men who had much more experience in studying the scriptures. It was also quite common for grown men to literally marry children. Again, that makes the man teaching the woman, more logical. However, when the boldness of the Holy Spirit fell upon male and female alike, and women were now proclaimed to be coheirs,(this had not been proclaimed before) things were in the movement of change. Furthermore in the individual cases of women being really knowledgeable in the scriptures, they were teaching even men, like in the case of Priscilla and Aquilla. She was coteaching, and in fact her name is mentioned first, which might well indicate that she was leading the teaching, but at any rate, she was teaching another man.

Actually it is the same. Jesus humbled himself before the disciples (washing their feet, etc) where the situation required it. So he didn't teach where no teaching was needed; he didn't command where it didn't require it. The most important thing was that Jesus loved his disciples, wanted them to be like him. So in a way both positions are almost like riddles--what is Christ's nature? What is the Church's nature? It is beyond the petty notions of any society.
 
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Created2Write

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I think it's ironic how so many men want the right to be the leader in their household, go on about how women ought to submit to their authority, etc, and then get all uptight when a movie portrarys a man actually BEING the spiritual leader in his household by setting the right tone and the woman then following suit. IMO being a good leader means doing the right thing whether you're followed or not in hopes that your good example will inspire those you're leading....not refusing to "go first" and do the right thing because you're too busy whining about the state of who is supposed to be following you. If you want to be a leader...then step up and lead your household by doing what is right...which is, in fact, being willing to lay down your life for those you love! Don't expect your wife to go first if you want her to follow you. It's completely backwards and you can't have it both ways.

I think there's a misunderstanding here. Personally, I have no issue at all with the husband going first and leading, taking responsibility even though his wife is not. That, I'm all for it. My issue, and the issue presented by some of the men, is that after he took the lead and apologized, the wife did not offer an apology. She began an emotional affair with another man, told her husband she didn't love him, said spiteful things to him in an argument and still filed for divorce after he changed. Yet, the movie showed her giving him no apology. The issue was not with the husband taking the lead, it was in the wife not giving her husband the apology he deserved. I think it was right that he apologized first. But I don't think it was right that they didn't show her apologize. I mean, heck even the movie Couples Retreat showed the husband and wife both apologize(Joey and Lisa, ftr).
 
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Created2Write

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I only saw the movie once, several years ago, so I can't speak on specifics, but overall I would say that yeah, the idea of him taking the lead by "going first" and treating her in a right and loving and selfless way instead of what he was doing before (yelling at her, engaging in his own sinful habits and demanding that she submit to him) was a good example of spiritual leadership from a husband.

I agree. That part of the movie was very good. Demonstrated true selflessness, even when there was no return of appreciation.
 
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Romanseight2005

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Actually it is the same. Jesus humbled himself before the disciples (washing their feet, etc) where the situation required it. So he didn't teach where no teaching was needed; he didn't command where it didn't require it. The most important thing was that Jesus loved his disciples, wanted them to be like him. So in a way both positions are almost like riddles--what is Christ's nature? What is the Church's nature? It is beyond the petty notions of any society.

I would agree with this. :thumbsup:
 
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hijklmnop

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I think there's a misunderstanding here. Personally, I have no issue at all with the husband going first and leading, taking responsibility even though his wife is not. That, I'm all for it. My issue, and the issue presented by some of the men, is that after he took the lead and apologized, the wife did not offer an apology. She began an emotional affair with another man, told her husband she didn't love him, said spiteful things to him in an argument and still filed for divorce after he changed. Yet, the movie showed her giving him no apology. The issue was not with the husband taking the lead, it was in the wife not giving her husband the apology he deserved. I think it was right that he apologized first. But I don't think it was right that they didn't show her apologize. I mean, heck even the movie Couples Retreat showed the husband and wife both apologize(Joey and Lisa, ftr).

I agree that she should have apologized for her wrongs too.

But (and this "but" is directed at the thread in general, not your post above specifically) I don't think the movie is bad just because it's not perfect. It's a good example of a husband taking his eyes off of the goal of controlling his wife and back onto the goal of being a God-pleasing man and husband. The fact that it had a happy ending also is not a bad thing. Just because it doesn't work that way for some doesn't mean it never does. It's meant to be encouraging and entertaining. A movie simply cannot be expected to be completely unbiased and fair on all counts...by that I mean that the objection that someone else made that "But they haven't made a movie that holds wives responsible in the same way!" is silly to me because it doesn't have to be a contest. Should the creators not have been allowed to release this movie unless they released one just like it at the exact same time with the roles/genders reversed just so all husbands could stomach the message without feeling targeted? So much fuss for so little reason, IMO.
 
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Romanseight2005

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I agree that she should have apologized for her wrongs too.

But (and this "but" is directed at the thread in general, not your post above specifically) I don't think the movie is bad just because it's not perfect. It's a good example of a husband taking his eyes off of the goal of controlling his wife and back onto the goal of being a God-pleasing man and husband. The fact that it had a happy ending also is not a bad thing. Just because it doesn't work that way for some doesn't mean it never does. It's meant to be encouraging and entertaining. A movie simply cannot be expected to be completely unbiased and fair on all counts...by that I mean that the objection that someone else made that "But they haven't made a movie that holds wives responsible in the same way!" is silly to me because it doesn't have to be a contest. Should the creators not have been allowed to release this movie unless they released one just like it at the exact same time with the roles/genders reversed just so all husbands could stomach the message without feeling targeted? So much fuss for so little reason, IMO.

And seriously they did cover that buy showing that the parents did it with reversed genders.
 
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Created2Write

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I agree that she should have apologized for her wrongs too.

But (and this "but" is directed at the thread in general, not your post above specifically) I don't think the movie is bad just because it's not perfect. It's a good example of a husband taking his eyes off of the goal of controlling his wife and back onto the goal of being a God-pleasing man and husband.

Oh I definitely agree. Went and saw it with Jason on our first date. It was his third time seeing it, flaws and all. And it was through that movie that I fell in love with him. So, no argument here whatsoever.

dreamer1982 said:
The fact that it had a happy ending also is not a bad thing. Just because it doesn't work that way for some doesn't mean it never does. It's meant to be encouraging and entertaining.

And with the divorce rates out there, I think our society needs a happy ending to a marriage movie. It gives people hope in a world where there really isn't much encouragement about marriage.

dreamer1982 said:
A movie simply cannot be expected to be completely unbiased and fair on all counts...by that I mean that the objection that someone else made that "But they haven't made a movie that holds wives responsible in the same way!" is silly to me because it doesn't have to be a contest. Should the creators not have been allowed to release this movie unless they released one just like it at the exact same time with the roles/genders reversed just so all husbands could stomach the message without feeling targeted? So much fuss for so little reason, IMO.

I get what you're saying. I agree with both arguments(for lack of a better word). As a woman I often feel like I'm not held accountable for my actions. That just by being a woman I'm automatically justified in whatever it is I'm feeling or needing. (This is just me personally. Not saying others should feel the same way.) I really would love to see a movie made in which a woman(as the main character) changes her heart towards her husband and the marriage is saved. I feel left out with all the, "Husbands need to step up". :) Just because I know I need to step up, I kinda feel like no one else thinks I should.

But I also don't think the makers were wrong for focusing on the husband. It's the message they felt convicted to share and that's totally fine, despite the flaws I see. (And the poor acting, but we won't go there. :) ) I do think it would have been more impacting if they'd shown the wife apologize, but that's just me.
 
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chaz345

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But (and this "but" is directed at the thread in general, not your post above specifically) I don't think the movie is bad just because it's not perfect. It's a good example of a husband taking his eyes off of the goal of controlling his wife and back onto the goal of being a God-pleasing man and husband.


I'm very confused and wondering if we even saw the same movie because him controlling her was never anywhere on the radar even a little.
 
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chaz345

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A movie simply cannot be expected to be completely unbiased and fair on all counts...by that I mean that the objection that someone else made that "But they haven't made a movie that holds wives responsible in the same way!" is silly to me because it doesn't have to be a contest. Should the creators not have been allowed to release this movie unless they released one just like it at the exact same time with the roles/genders reversed just so all husbands could stomach the message without feeling targeted? So much fuss for so little reason, IMO.

If every single relationship movie out there placed the blame on the woman I guarantee that you'd not be saying that objecting was lots of fuss for so little reason.
 
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JaneFW

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I think there's a misunderstanding here. Personally, I have no issue at all with the husband going first and leading, taking responsibility even though his wife is not. That, I'm all for it. My issue, and the issue presented by some of the men, is that after he took the lead and apologized, the wife did not offer an apology. She began an emotional affair with another man, told her husband she didn't love him, said spiteful things to him in an argument and still filed for divorce after he changed. Yet, the movie showed her giving him no apology. The issue was not with the husband taking the lead, it was in the wife not giving her husband the apology he deserved. I think it was right that he apologized first. But I don't think it was right that they didn't show her apologize. I mean, heck even the movie Couples Retreat showed the husband and wife both apologize(Joey and Lisa, ftr).
I don't think you understand that, in a scenario like the one presented, where the husband had lust and anger issues, it's not all okay immediately. It takes time to heal and to actually see that your spouse genuinely has changed. So expecting that the moment he apologizes and says he's going to change is not necessarily to be trusted. The response to this is not necessarily to have an EA, but then we can all be weak in wanting to have our ears tickled. At this point also, I don't believe that the wife owed her husband an apology. He was the one that was using porn, he was the one with the anger issues. She had nothing to apologize for until after the EA. That said, how many people here responding to this thread have even watched this movie? I seem to remember people saying upfront that they hadn't. But anyway, this "EA" consisted of a few amorous glances and a lunch - and as I recall, the doctor himself also did wrong in indulging in these encounters, particularly as he did that most creepy of things and slid off his wedding ring so that the wife wouldn't know he was married. Where's the overwhelming disgust for him in this scenario? So, yeah, "emotional affair" is pushing it imo, and I have seen the movie. If that's an emotional affair, oh my goodness, shoot me now, because I have also smiled at men and had lunch with them. :eek:
 
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Created2Write

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I don't think you understand that, in a scenario like the one presented, where the husband had lust and anger issues, it's not all okay immediately. It takes time to heal and to actually see that your spouse genuinely has changed. So expecting that the moment he apologizes and says he's going to change is not necessarily to be trusted.

Where did I say it had to be an immediate acceptance? I totally understand that there has been a breach of trust and that it takes time for that to heal. I did not want or expect her to apologize right after he did. But, at the end of the movie when she finds out he was the one who paid for the bed for her mother with his boat money and she runs to meet him, that, imo, is when the apology for her actions would have been appropriate.

JaneFW said:
The response to this is not necessarily to have an EA, but then we can all be weak in wanting to have our ears tickled. At this point also, I don't believe that the wife owed her husband an affair. He was the one that was using porn, he was the one with the anger issues. She had nothing to apologize for until after the EA.

I disagree. The EA was definitely the worst of it all and should have been confessed and apologized for, but so were other things she did and said.

JaneFW said:
That said, how many people here responding to this thread have even watched this movie? I seem to remember people saying upfront that they hadn't.

I have, many times.

JaneFW said:
But anyway, this "EA" consisted of a few amorous glances and a lunch - and as I recall, the doctor himself also did wrong in indulging in these encounters, particularly as he did that most creepy of things and slid off his wedding ring so that the wife wouldn't know he was married. Where's the overwhelming disgust for him in this scenario? So, yeah, "emotional affair" is pushing it imo, and I have seen the movie.

The doctor was wrong too. The wife wasn't wearing her wedding ring either, and we see her remove it. Unless he was an idiot and didn't see her ring there before, suddenly seeing it gone in addition to the lunches and her attention would give a very direct impression. So much so that a third party felt the need to warn her. Just because you don't see it as an EA doesn't mean the actions weren't wrong and in need of being confessed and apologized for. If the roles were reversed I would definitely be hurt if the response was, "Your sex addiction made me start this EA so I'm not apologizing." SO wrong.

JaneFW said:
If that's an emotional affair, oh my goodness, shoot me now, because I have also smiled at men and had lunch with them. :eek:

That's not the same thing, though. Have you taken off your wedding ring and accepted lovey-dovey cards from those men, and then hidden those cards from your husband? Was it bad enough for a third party to enter the situation and warn you about your actions? I seriously, seriously doubt it. If your husband did the same things she did, would you feel respected as a wife?
 
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JaneFW

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Where did I say it had to be an immediate acceptance? I totally understand that there has been a breach of trust and that it takes time for that to heal. I did not want or expect her to apologize right after he did. But, at the end of the movie when she finds out he was the one who paid for the bed for her mother with his boat money and she runs to meet him, that, imo, is when the apology for her actions would have been appropriate.
I guess they didn't write it into the script.

I disagree. The EA was definitely the worst of it all and should have been confessed and apologized for, but so were other things she did and said.
I don't think that any of the behavior was "worst". They both behaved badly. Neither was any better or worse than the other.

The doctor was wrong too. The wife wasn't wearing her wedding ring either, and we see her remove it. Unless he was an idiot and didn't see her ring there before, suddenly seeing it gone in addition to the lunches and her attention would give a very direct impression. So much so that a third party felt the need to warn her.
Ah, but you see these other people talking about Fireproof apparently missed that moment. Or the friend didn't say it loudly enough or something. I have had to mention it myself because it has been repeated time and again that nobody takes her task for her behavior - and yes they did.

Just because you don't see it as an EA doesn't mean the actions weren't wrong and in need of being confessed and apologized for. If the roles were reversed I would definitely be hurt if the response was, "Your sex addiction made me start this EA so I'm not apologizing." SO wrong.
But she didn't say that, and neither did I. I don't have any experience of EA's but I assume they are more in depth and lengthy than portrayed.

That's not the same thing, though. Have you taken off your wedding ring and accepted lovey-dovey cards from those men, and then hidden those cards from your husband? Was it bad enough for a third party to enter the situation and warn you about your actions? I seriously, seriously doubt it. If your husband did the same things she did, would you feel respected as a wife?
If I ever did those things, would I really be inclined to say so? And yes, my husband has done many of those things, and more besides.
 
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jackpetersen

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The wife had control issues. She also felt, unbiblically, that she could withhold herself from her husband because she was not getting her way.

The movie is designed to make the woman's sin look more passive, and cast it as a "result" of the man's sin.

If she is so Goldy, why is shopping around for man #2 before she is divorced?
Lust, pride, and greed, I would say.

In the end, it was all about the money for this woman.

And the lack of an apology on her part? An accident? Or the makers of the movie deciding to leave that out to pander to their female audience who would feel offended at the idea that women should not keep their options open?

This movie is set up to make women look LESS sinful, LESS lustful, and LESS selfish than men, playing to the popular view in many churches.

I've heard plenty of Christians tell me that when a man cheats, it is because he is a lustful sleazebag.

When a woman cheats, it was because her husband "did not love her enough".

In other words, women never sin without the man failing FIRST in some way.

I do not and will not accept the intellectual maturity of any person who refuses to believe that SOMETIMES women are lusty cheaters looking for a fling, even though the
MAN HAS DONE NOTHING WRONG.

Can any woman admit that? It is rare...
 
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jackpetersen

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In the beginning, before he started the love dare, and even after he started the love dare, but before it got into his heart, he was trying to control her.

And she was trying to control him.

There was nothing "innocent" about her heart, either.
 
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I guess they didn't write it into the script.


I don't think that any of the behavior was "worst". They both behaved badly. Neither was any better or worse than the other.

No, I didn't mean between the two. I meant out of everything she did the EA was the worst. I agree that neither one of them behaved worse than the other.

JaneFW said:
Ah, but you see these other people talking about Fireproof apparently missed that moment. Or the friend didn't say it loudly enough or something. I have had to mention it myself because it has been repeated time and again that nobody takes her task for her behavior - and yes they did.

But she didn't say that, and neither did I. I don't have any experience of EA's but I assume they are more in depth and lengthy than portrayed.

My point was that whether you think it qualifies as an EA or not is irrelevant. The actions were still wrong and, imo, the story would have been more complete if they'd shown her own that and apologize for it. Now, I have common sense so I assume that it's a "read between the lines" sort of thing, that she probably apologized for it later. I still think it would have helped the story if they'd shown it.

JaneFW said:
If I ever did those things, would I really be inclined to say so? And yes, my husband has done many of those things, and more besides.

I asked if it made you feel respected. I certainly wouldn't think so. Hence, there should be an apology. Same with the movie. I think it would have made it more complete, more realistic.
 
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