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"This is My Body"

Wryetui

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Don't expect that it actually tastes like flesh and blood, it is our soul that nurishes from this. The Church has been doing this as an essential part of the christian life, if not the most of them and it has been like that for 2000 years. I don't see a reason for changing a vital part.
 
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TheBarrd

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Don't expect that it actually tastes like flesh and blood, it is our soul that nurishes from this. The Church has been doing this as an essential part of the christian life, if not the most of them and it has been like that for 2000 years. I don't see a reason for changing a vital part.

Yes, Wryetui, it is our soul that is nourished from the celebration of the Lord's Supper.
Nor would I, or anyone else I know of, wish to change this vital part of our worship experience.
However, why insist that the bread and wine must be actual flesh and blood? Why turn it from a beautiful "remembrance" into a ghastly cannibalistic rite?

And I think it gives the celebration more meaning, if we understand what was truly going on that night. Why does the church not teach the Fast of the Firstborn? For years I wondered why Jesus was "eating the Passover with His disciples" a day early...and then, doing research for "The First Sinner" I stumbled across this precious bit of information, and my heart rejoiced. The next time my church had "Communion", it meant so much more to me...
 
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Wryetui

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Yes, Wryetui, it is our soul that is nourished from the celebration of the Lord's Supper.
Nor would I, or anyone else I know of, wish to change this vital part of our worship experience.
However, why insist that the bread and wine must be actual flesh and blood? Why turn it from a beautiful "remembrance" into a ghastly cannibalistic rite?

And I think it gives the celebration more meaning, if we understand what was truly going on that night. Why does the church not teach the Fast of the Firstborn? For years I wondered why Jesus was "eating the Passover with His disciples" a day early...and then, doing research for "The First Sinner" I stumbled across this precious bit of information, and my heart rejoiced. The next time my church had "Communion", it meant so much more to me...
Because of this:

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 
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mmksparbud

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(Gen 9:4) But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
(Lev 7:26) Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings.

(Lev 7:27) Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
(Act 15:20) But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
(Act 15:20) But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


Since the time of Noah--God said to not eat blood. And then the disciples, after the resurrection, also reiterated that we are not to eat blood---


Is Christ going to ask us to do something that has been expressly forbidden??
 
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Cappadocious

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Is Christ going to ask us to do something that has been expressly forbidden??
Why was it forbidden? Because the life was in the blood: 1. Life is due back to God. 2. Man was cut off from life.

Now, Christ's blood unites us to Christ, who is the ultimate offering to God. He has reconciled man to life. So all of our body and blood is offered back to God through Christ when we partake of his blood. It is the ultimate fulfillment of the command to return the blood to God, because life is in the blood.

But for those who prefer the dead interpretation of the Tanakh proposed by wailing false prophetesses who rage in vain:

"[FONT=&quot]The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?...From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."[/FONT]
 
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Divine37

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For the longest time, I was struggling so much with what communion was supposed to be. I recently have been going to my girlfriend's church, which is Lutheran (LCMS). Today actually, my view on the Eucharist has changed quite a bit. I haven't taken communion at this place yet, because it's a closed table and I'm not a confirmed Lutheran. However, when I got blessed at the altar, I felt the undeniable presence of God. I walked back to my seat, and I felt it even stronger, just emanating pure love, joy, and peace. I've felt this before, during deep prayer with God. It's his pure love and presence. I think I understand so much better what communion is supposed to be: a spiritual fellowship where we, in a spiritual sense, take his body and blood for the forgiveness of sins. It's not a physical flesh and blood, but spiritual. It's a spiritual reality I'm starting to finally understand.
 
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FireDragon76

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I disagree. Jesus is the Door, a door through which we must enter to the Father.

Jesus is the Bread of Life. Feeding on him brings eternal life.

Jesus is the Good Shepherd, he watches over our souls.

You see how nonsensical it is to say these things are only metaphors? Clearly they are not. Just because Jesus is a door doesn't mean he's made out of wood. And just because Jesus is the Bread of Life doesn't mean he's made of wheat.
 
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Albion

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I disagree. Jesus is the Door, a door through which we must enter to the Father.

Jesus is the Bread of Life. Feeding on him brings eternal life.

Jesus is the Good Shepherd, he watches over our souls.

You see how nonsensical it is to say these things are only metaphors? Clearly they are not. Just because Jesus is a door doesn't mean he's made out of wood. And just because Jesus is the Bread of Life doesn't mean he's made of wheat.

You mean, I take it, that they are more than JUST metaphors. But in fairness to those Christians who do not believe in a "Real Presence," it's not as though they attach only symbolism to the ordinance.

They do come to it with reverence and feel that they are commemorating the Lord's sacrifice on the Cross, being put in mind of this great act and its significance by their participation in the Lord's Supper. That being the case, it's not reasonable to conclude that it has less significance than the examples you gave above.
 
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To my Lutheran and RC friends, Jesus is neither a gate nor a loaf of bread. These are metaphors. BTW, I do take the Bible as literally true, but some is literally history, some is literally poetry, and some is literally metaphor.

I am the bread of life - I am the light of the world - I am the true vine - I am the gate for the sheep - I am the way - I am the good shepherd

If you disagree, how do you make a distinction between Jesus as a gate and Jesus as bread? Why is one metaphor and the other not?

The Bible is literature. Read it as such and then go to the commentators.

Here are the applicable verses from the NIV version of the Bible.

MT 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

MT 26:27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

MK 14:22 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."

MK 14:23 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.

MK 14:24 "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.

LK 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

LK 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

In John 6 with 13 bold statements, Jesus first declared that He is the bread of life. (This is a metaphor. Obviously Jesus was not a talking loaf of bread.) Then he explained the meaning of the metaphor by stated that His flesh is the bread; and that it is necessary to eat His flesh and drink His blood to have eternal life. There are no other examples of a similar extended metaphor in any of Jesus’ sayings. The language, rather than being a metaphor, is more a driving home of a point which is difficult to accept. (Which is the precise reaction of many of those who heard His words; they could not accept them.) It is of note tht Jesus did not attempt to explain any parabolic or metaphoric meaning to the disciples as He had done in other instances. Indeed, the apostles do not even question Jesus as to the meaning of His words. This lack of questioning suggests that they did not receive His words a metaphor or parable which would require that the symbols be explained in order to understand the meaning of the speech. It suggests that they understood them to be words plainly spoken and having no hidden or symbolic meaning.

JN 6:35 Then Jesus declared,


THE BREAD OF LIFE – the metaphor


(1) "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

48 (2) I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died.

50(3) But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.

51(4) I am the living bread that came down from heaven.

(5) If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.


THE BREAD IS MY FLESH – the metaphor explained

(6) This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

JN 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth,

(7) unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

54(8) Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 (9) For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

56(10) Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. (See John 15.)

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so

(11) the one who feeds on me will live because of me.


THE BREAD OF LIFE – the lesson summarized

58(12) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but

(13) he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

Paul’s words concerning the Eucharist confirm that the bread and wine are the actual Body and Blood of the Lord rather than a symbol or a prop in a ritual of recalling.

1CO 10:16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

1CO 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

1CO 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Now apply what Paul has told us at 1CO 4:6, “Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another”

How then can it be said that the bread and wine are merely symbols when there is no mention of symbols anywhere in scripture, but rather, the repeated statement “This is my body” and “This is … my blood” and, , JN 6:53"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. JN 6:54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. JN 6:55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. JN 6:56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. JN 6:57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”?


Where is there an indication that any of Jesus’ words should be taken as meaning, “This is a symbol of my body” or “this is a symbol of my blood”?

Ignatius of Antioch (30-107 A. D. A disciple of the apostle John and Bishop of Antioch) in his Epistle to the Smyrnaens, Ch. VII: “Let Us Stand Aloof from Such Heretics” states; “They (the heretics) abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins,..”

He was taught by the John, the beloved disciple of Christ and, in this statement, he affirms the teaching of the apostles and Christ that the bread is Christ’s body.

Justin Martyr, the church’s first apologist, wrote in the first half of the 2nd century in his “The First Apology of Justin”, in Chapter LXVI.—Of the Eucharist. In it he reports what he was taught as a new Christian by the church. That would mean that the teaching he received was already established in the church. It is not some later innovation by the Roman church but was a part of the teaching of the apostles who taught what they learned from Jesus. It is God’s inspired teaching to the church by His Son, through the apostles to the church. And here it is:

“And this food is called among us Eujcaristiva [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; ”and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood; ”and gave it to them alone.”

Irenaeus (120-202 A.D.), in his book Against Heresies,

Book IV Chapter XVIII.—Concerning Sacrifices and Oblations, and Those Who Truly Offer Them.

4…………..But how can they be consistent with themselves, [when they say] that the bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood, if they do not call Himself the Son of the Creator of the world, that is, His Word, through whom the wood fructifies, and the fountains gush forth, and the earth gives “first the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear.”

5. Then, again, how can they say that the flesh, which is nourished with the body of the Lord and with His blood, goes to corruption, and does not partake of life? Let them, therefore, either alter their opinion, or cease from offering the things just mentioned. But our opinion is in accordance with the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn establishes our opinion. For we offer to Him His own, announcing consistently the fellowship and union of the flesh and Spirit. For as the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly; so also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity.

Chapter XXXIII.—Whosoever Confesses that One God is the Author of Both Testaments, and Diligently Reads the Scriptures in Company with the Presbyters of the Church, is a True Spiritual Disciple; And He Will Rightly Understand and Interpret All that the Prophets Have Declared Respecting Christ and the Liberty of the New Testament.

2. Moreover, he shall also examine the doctrine of Marcion, [inquiring] how he holds that there are two gods, separated from each other by an infinite distance. Or how can he be good who draws away men that do not belong to him from him who made them, and calls them into his own kingdom? And why is his goodness, which does not save all [thus], defective? Also, why does he, indeed, seem to be good as respects men, but most unjust with regard to him who made men, inasmuch as he deprives him of his possessions? Moreover, how could the Lord, with any justice, if He belonged to another father, have acknowledged the bread to be His body, while He took it from that creation to which we belong, and affirmed the mixed cup to be His blood?

Book V, Ch. II. 2 states, “He (Jesus) has acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as His own blood, from which He bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of the creation) He has established as His own body, from which He gives increase to our bodies.”

3. When, therefore, the mingled cup and the manufactured bread receives the Word of God, and the Eucharist of the blood and the body of Christ is made, from which things the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they affirm that the flesh is incapable of receiving the gift of God, which is life eternal, which [flesh] is nourished from the body and blood of the Lord, and is a member of Him?—even as the blessed Paul declares in his Epistle to the Ephesians, that “we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.” He does not speak these words of some spiritual and invisible man, for a spirit has not bones nor flesh; but [he refers to] that dispensation [by which the Lord became] an actual man, consisting of flesh, and nerves, and bones,—that [flesh] which is nourished by the cup which is His blood, and receives increase from the bread which is His body.

Chapter XXXVII

……………. And therefore the oblation of the Eucharist is not a carnal one, but a spiritual; and in this respect it is pure. For we make an oblation to God of the bread and the cup of blessing, giving Him thanks in that He has commanded the earth to bring forth these fruits for our nourishment. And then, when we have perfected the oblation, we invoke the Holy Spirit, that He may exhibit this sacrifice, both the bread the body of Christ, and the cup the blood of Christ, in order that the receivers of these antitypes may obtain remission of sins and life eternal.

Tertullian; On Prayer, Chapter XIX: “Of Stations.”

Similarly, too, touching the days of Stations, most think that they must not be present at the sacrificial prayers, on the ground that the Station must be dissolved by reception of the Lord’s Body. Does, then, the Eucharist cancel a service devoted to God, or bind it more to God? Will not your Station be more solemn if you have withal stood at God’s altar? When the Lord’s Body has been received and reserved each point is secured, both the participation of the sacrifice and the discharge of duty. If the “Station” has received its name from the example of military life—for we withal are God’s military —of course no gladness or sadness chanting to the camp abolishes the “stations” of the soldiers: for gladness will carry out discipline more willingly, sadness more carefully.

I don't see any way to find support for the view of the Eucharist as symbolic based on the writings of the apostles and of their disciples and those following closely after them. From the existing historic records, there was never a time in the Church when the bread and wine was not believed and taught to be the body and blood of the Lord.
 
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patricius79

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To my Lutheran and RC friends, Jesus is neither a gate nor a loaf of bread. These are metaphors. BTW, I do take the Bible as literally true, but some is literally history, some is literally poetry, and some is literally metaphor.

I am the bread of life

I am the light of the world

I am the true vine

I am the gate for the sheep

I am the way

I am the good shepherd

If you disagree, how do you make a distinction between Jesus as a gate and Jesus as bread? Why is one metaphor and the other not?

These are good questions. However, the burden of distinction is on both Catholics and Protestants, alike.

Also, when Jesus said I am the Bread of Life, he didn't just leave it at that. He repeatedly insisted "amen, amen," four times in a row that we must eat his flesh and drink his Blood.
 
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patricius79

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You know, I'm willing to bet that when Jesus made the bread and fishes multiply, the people tasted bread and fishes.
And when people drank the wine he had made from water, it tasted like a delicate and delicious wine.
Don't you suppose that, if they held the food or the wine in their hands, it looked and smelled like fish, or bread, or wine?

Now, I have attended a great many Eucharists in my 65 years, in a very many different sorts of churches...including Roman Catholic. I have never once either experienced the bread and wine looking or tasting like flesh and blood, nor have I noticed such a change watching the people around me.
Why do you suppose that is?

I think that's a good question. I think the answer is so that we can affirm Christ by believing his words on faith (cf. Jn 6:47-63)
 
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Kirsten

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To my Lutheran and RC friends, Jesus is neither a gate nor a loaf of bread. These are metaphors. BTW, I do take the Bible as literally true, but some is literally history, some is literally poetry, and some is literally metaphor.

I am the bread of life

I am the light of the world

I am the true vine

I am the gate for the sheep

I am the way

I am the good shepherd

If you disagree, how do you make a distinction between Jesus as a gate and Jesus as bread? Why is one metaphor and the other not?

Furthermore, if Jesus meant that breaking bread with other believers in remembrance of Him was to literally eat His flesh, where in Scripture does He tell His people to get said bread?
 
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TheBarrd

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I think that's a good question. I think the answer is so that we can affirm Christ by believing his words on faith (cf. Jn 6:47-63)
If Jesus is able to turn water into wine, or multiply a child's lunch until it could feed 5000 people....and I sincerely believe that He can do all of that, and more....then He is surely capable of changing bread and wine into actual flesh and blood.
I'm very grateful that He does not do so.
 
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Kirsten

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If Jesus is able to turn water into wine, or multiply a child's lunch until it could feed 5000 people....and I sincerely believe that He can do all of that, and more....then He is surely capable of changing bread and wine into actual flesh and blood.
I'm very grateful that He does not do so.
Where in Scripture does He tell His disciples to get this bread that is His literal flesh?
 
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Albion

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Where in Scripture does He tell His disciples to get this bread that is His literal flesh?

The Jerusalem bakery? Bake it yourself? What difference does it make? The belief you are so vehemently rejecting holds that bread IS TURNED INTO something else, not that you start with a loaf of flesh. :doh:
 
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Kirsten

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The Jerusalem bakery? Bake it yourself? What difference does it make? The belief you are so vehemently rejecting holds that bread IS TURNED INTO something else, not that you start with a loaf of flesh. :doh:
It makes all the difference because some claim to be the only church who can change ordinary bread into Jesus Himself. Certainly, if Jesus really told His disciples that they must literally consume Him to be saved, He would have made it very clear where they would find His flesh to consume.
 
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