This is an essential read ....

[cygnusx1]

I have just today been reading a great book ....... about Calvin and Limited Atonement!



I have been after this book for a long time .......



if you have any doubts about Calvin's view of Redemption being limited to the elect , this is the book for you , I have just ordered 2 more copies!

 

[AndOne]

Ah so many books - so little time! But that looks like one I'm going to have to get... It better be essential for 24 bucks!!

Thanks for sharing Cyg - you might want to point Van toward that book.

 

[oworm]

Thanks for sharing Cyg - you might want to point Van toward that book.

The elect will fall from Grace first

 

[cygnusx1]

The elect will fall from Grace first

I see you have heared of Van

sometimes we have to take the saying "cast not your pearls before swine" and be practical...

 

[Tertiumquid]

Hi Cygnus,

You were lucky to track this book down. I've had my copy for about 2 years, and it took a while to get. By all means, if one has an interest in this subject, this book was one of the key books in the "debate" on Calvin and limited atonment.

For those not familiar with the "debate": Some have argued that Calvin did not hold to limited atonment, thus Calvin was not in actuality a Calvinist. Calvinism is rather the result of Calvin's succsessors like Beza and Puritan theology.

For an excellent overview of the entire issue, see Roger Nicole's helpful article from the WTS Journal:

John Calvin’s View of the Extent of the Atonement

Nicole will refer you to the key authors in this discussion.

The issue gained a little more popularity when Norman Geisler released Chosen But Free a few years back. Geisler included an entire section of Calvin quotes "proving" Calvin was not a Calvinist on limited atonement. He argues Calvin held unlimited atonement. The majority of Geisler's material on this was taken from the work of R.T. Kendall: Calvin and English Calvinism to 1649. This book can be difficult to track down. The original work appeared in the early 1980’s. It was revised and republished in 1997.

In the second edition of Chosen But Free, Dr. Geisler references those holding opposing views on this topic (Helm, Rainbow, Nicole), though no meaningful interaction with their research is offered. In the 2002 book Four Views on Eternal Security, Dr. Geisler reiterates his reliance on Kendall, and also refers to the Calvin research of Robert P. Lightner, {The Death Christ Died: A Case For Unlimited Atonement, 2d ed. (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1998)}, though no citations or research from Lightner is offered. Also included in Geisler’s bibliography for Chosen But Free, is mention of Brian Armstrong’s Calvin and the Amyraut Heresy, a book that would support Geisler’s conclusion on Calvin, yet Geisler includes no material from this book. The most important book from those who argue Calvin held to unlimited atonement was by Curt Daniel, but the name of the book escapes me at the moment.

James White includes a page or two in Potter's Freedom as a response to Geisler on Calvin. I have also taken a close look at Geisler's citations of Calvin, found here:
http://aomin.org/TertiumQuid.html

Also, I began an overview of the entire issue here:

http://www.ntrmin.org/Was%20Calvin%20a%20Calvinist%206%20Part%20One.htm

I'm currently involved with putting together a web site with some other Reformed folks. Perhaps when this is up i'll get the rest of my work on this issue on-line.

God Bless,
James Swan

 

[cygnusx1]

^ Excellent post Tertiumquid !!

I have never been able to get hold of anything by Roger Nicole or Brian Armstrong ...... but I do have all the other books you mentioned including Kendal's 'Calvin and English Calvinism to 1649'

I also have , George Michael Thomas 'The Extent Of The Atonement'
Robert A Peterson's 'Calvin's doctrine of the Atonement'
Paul Van Buren's 'Christ In Our Place:the substitutionary character of Calvin's doctrine of reconciliation'
R.B . Kuiper's ' For whom did Christ die'
not forgetting the TWO chief books on the subject , John Owen's 'death of death' and Francis Turretin's equally brilliant book 'The Atonement'

http://www.apuritansmind.com/FrancisTurretin/francisturretin.htm

Also I have a couple of books by Alan C Clifford who takes a similar line to Kendal.

I like Rainbow's book a lot ........ he starts with Augustine ...... a great place to start.

 

[Jon_]

I see you have heared of Van

sometimes we have to take the saying "cast not your pearls before swine" and be practical...

Van is a foolish coward is what he is. Twice I have confronted him for a one-on-one debate and twice he has dodged my challenge. He is a fool who spews lies and blasphemies; and I, for one, cannot tolerate him.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Tertiumquid]

I have never been able to get hold of anything by Roger Nicole or Brian Armstrong ...... .

You have a very impressive list of books on the subject!

I have Nicole's article also on my hard drive- what makes it different than the version on the link I provided, is I have the footnotes Nicole uses. If you'd like a copy, PM me. I have a dozen or so other articles, mostly photocopies (somewhere).

In regard to Armstrong- go check your local college libraries. A college near my house has the book.

The best book saying Calvin held unlimited atonement was by Curt Daniel, and again (without going down into my library) I can't remember the name of the book. It is though, considered the strongest book on the subject- I believe it you check Kendall's book, a chapter at the end by Daniel was added, refuting the oft used Calvin quote: "I would like to know how the wicked can eat the flesh which was not crucified for them? And how they can drink the blood which was not shed to expiate their sins.". I think it was Daniel- if not, it was a really strong argument, whomever wrote it.


Below are a bunch of links to articles and books. If any of the links don't work, go to this site:

http://www.archive.org/

put the link in where it says "wayback machine" and you should be able to get the web-page. The link is to an archive service that keeps copies of old web pages. It is an awesome way to get old webpages.


Here's some other resources:

James White examined the issue of Calvin’s Calvinism via an Internet broadcast: Calvin's View of the Atonement. The hour-long broadcast is part of his series reviewing Norman Geisler’s Chosen But Free (requires RealPlayer).

Modern Reformation magazine presents the article, Did Calvin's Successors Distort His Doctrine of Predestination? By Joel E. Kim.

Dr. Joel R. Beeke discusses the charge that Calvin was not a Calvinist in his article Does Assurance Belong to the Essence of Faith?.

William Cunningham wrote He wrote The Reformers and the Theology of the Reformation, in 1862. He explores the charge that Calvin may not have been a Calvinist over 100 years ago.

Herman Hanko (from the Theological School of Protestant Reformed Churches, Grandville Michigan) has written on Amyrauldianism. In this essay, Hanko discusses the theologian Amyraut, and contrasts his theology of atonement with that of Calvin and Beza. He also reviewed the book Calvin's Authentic Calvinism, A Clarification, by the author Allan C. Clifford. Mr. Clifford puts forth the notion that Calvin believed in universal atonement. Hanko disagrees, and answers Clifford’s main theses.

For an excellent on-line rebuttal of the notion that Calvin did not believe in a limited atonement, see Paul Helm’s article, John Calvin's Position. The above article is from Paul Helm’s full treatment of this issue in his book, Calvin & The Calvinists. The book is a refutation of the work of R.T. Kendall, Calvin and English Calvinism to 1649. It is a devastating critique of Kendall’s work. David Sutherland in the Reformed Theological Journal presented a review of Paul Helm’s Calvin and the Calvinists: Review of Helm's Book.

Blessings- James Swan

 

[cygnusx1]

^ another excellent and informative post Tertiumquid!


I am interested in anything by Roger Nicole (his name comes up repeatedly through the years)

I have Paul Helm's 'Calvin and the Calvinist's' . Funnily enough I bought it when it first came out from Westminster Chapel bookshop London ...... where R T Kendal was minister (he might still be) , he was selling the book that destroyed his thesis!

I have Clifford's book 'Calvinus:Authentic Calvinism a Clarification' .. but I am interested in reading the review by Hanko.

I also have a more substantial book by Alan Clifford , 'Atonement and Justification :English Evangelical Theology 1640-1790 an evaluation' this is difficult to get hold of . it was expensive when I bought it .....(almost as hard to find as N.Tyake's book)

I have never heared of Curt Daniel.

James White is always good , but again I didn't know he had written about this topic.

I have Joel Beeke's book 'The Quest For Full Assurance : The Legacy Of Calvin and his Successors'


as an addendum , I also have a couple of books that deal with the issue of limited/universal atonemnet in Scotland where it has on a number of ocassions been hotly debated..

JohnMcLeod Campbell :The Nature Of The Atonement

So Rich A Soil :JohnMcLeod Campbell on Christian Atonement .

Alexander M'Nair "personal memorials: with a chapter on the extent of the atonement.

------------

also Hugh Martin :The Atonement
Smeaton :The Atonement according to Christ and His Apostles

and two favourites of mine.........
Gary.D.Long 'Definite Atonement'
not forgetting A W Pink 'The satisfaction of Christ'

 

[Tertiumquid]

Hi Cygnus,

Between us we probably have all the material on this subject. Perhaps someone will drop in who takes the view that Calvin was not a Calvinist and we can have an interesting discussion.

By your comments, i'm guessing you are not in the USA (shame on me for always assuming this).

I'm not sure if Nicole has any full length material on Calvin and the atonement, though the WTS article is considered one of the important overview's on the subject.

Again, it is Curt Daniel who has written the best treatment that argues Calvin was not a Calvinist. It's his chapter that Kendall added to the reprint of his book. Kendall's research was destroyed by Helm. Kendall in his reprint of Calvin and English Calvinism to 1649 didn't even bother to interact with Helm's criticism, but simply referred his readers to Daniel at the end of his book. Check to see which version of Kendall's book you have if its the 1997 version, you have Daniel's chapter. Daniel has a full length treatment that responds to Rainbow and Helm. I'm assuming its this book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006P7E08/qid=1124640508/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0504525-3505646?v=glance&s=books

Blessings,
James Swan

 

[cygnusx1]

Hi Cygnus,

Between us we probably have all the material on this subject. Perhaps someone will drop in who takes the view that Calvin was not a Calvinist and we can have an interesting discussion.

By your comments, i'm guessing you are not in the USA (shame on me for always assuming this).

I'm not sure if Nicole has any full length material on Calvin and the atonement, though the WTS article is considered one of the important overview's on the subject.

Again, it is Curt Daniel who has written the best treatment that argues Calvin was not a Calvinist. It's his chapter that Kendall added to the reprint of his book. Kendall's research was destroyed by Helm. Kendall in his reprint of Calvin and English Calvinism to 1649 didn't even bother to interact with Helm's criticism, but simply referred his readers to Daniel at the end of his book. Check to see which version of Kendall's book you have if its the 1997 version, you have Daniel's chapter. Daniel has a full length treatment that responds to Rainbow and Helm. I'm assuming its this book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006P7E08/qid=1124640508/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0504525-3505646?v=glance&s=books

Blessings,
James Swan

Hi Tertiumquid , my copy of Kendal's book is an old paperback , I can't find it at the moment
No I am not in the USA ... I am in England ... although I would love to visit the states , especially Boston and New England.

I can imagine Kendal not attempting to answer Paul Helm ........ as I stated he was selling Helms book in his own Church's bookshop , a rather odd move ... can you imagine selling a book that rips your own thesis to shreds ..

I haven't had much of a chance to read your links yet (thanks for posting them) after I have read them , I will most likely be interested in your kind offer of some Nicoles material.

have you looked into the debate on common Grace ?

 

[Tertiumquid]

have you looked into the debate on common Grace ?

Is this a particular book, or are you referring to the overall debate that has taken place on common grace?

Somewhere out in cyber space, i listened to a great audio of a debate on Common grace, I have though lost the link. If anyone knows what i'm talking about, please post the link.

Blessings,
James Swan

 

[cygnusx1]

Is this a particular book, or are you referring to the overall debate that has taken place on common grace?

Somewhere out in cyber space, i listened to a great audio of a debate on Common grace, I have though lost the link. If anyone knows what i'm talking about, please post the link.

Blessings,
James Swan

Yes the debate in general ............ Engelsma / Hoeksema / Van Til / RB KUIPER etc