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This is a little weird, but if Evolution is true,, shouldn't it be evolving simultaneously?

Brightmoon

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As far as the OP . Your idea seems like the Great Chain of Being which is an intriguing but inaccurate idea of how species evolve. The idea was that each species ultimately starts out as bacteria and eventually branches into multicellular sentient intelligent life . It’s wrong as obviously some bacteria stay bacteria
 
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Brightmoon

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Wouldn't we see a display of monstrosities like you see in Star Wars if evolution were true?
You mean like having organisms with extra limbs being mouthparts
149FA8EA-0C6E-4E94-8C73-1170CE8D6880.jpeg

Or looking like giant spiders
37DDF338-E548-4852-8749-679463419CF7.jpeg

Like this king crab.
Yeah you walked into that one!
 
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Brightmoon

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On the Origin of Species is longer.
which you’ve obviously never read as Darwin is quite clear about what he’s explaining about.
 
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Anguspure

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which you’ve obviously never read as Darwin is quite clear about what he’s explaining about.
Very clear but a lot of words to describe natural animal breeding.
 
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Jamdoc

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Wouldn't we see a display of monstrosities like you see in Star Wars if evolution were true?
Not necessarily, depends on if those monstrosities were capable of surviving long enough to breed and pass down their genes. That's what drives the entire process. Breeding. A theistic evolutionary point of view of it is God steers the breeding. Think about it. Man can take plants, dogs, or whatever other species, and chooses traits he likes and then intensely breeds organisms with those desired traits until the genes responsible for those traits do what geneticists call "moving to fixation" IE they get to where 100% of the surviving population has them. In Russia they selectively bred silver foxes for tameness and within 50 years they had made Domesticated foxes that barked like domesticated dogs and loved people God can do the same thing without physically doing anything and to a scale where it not only creates new "breeds" or "strains" of a species but entirely new species, because not only can God bring breeding pairs together with the traits he wants, but he can also reshape the very environment to create a niche for them to survive in, and geographically isolate them to speed up the creation of a new species. It's all planned out.
 
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DamianWarS

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Hi there,

So naturally I can't post this in the Evolution forum just yet - they are just not mature enough to handle a concept like this - but I need to develop the "thought": if you could bear with me, a little, here.

The idea is this "Evolution is often described as uni-directional (a species sets out to have a certain number of offspring, some of them are similar, some of them are different), each generation setting out to make the same changes as their parents, and a little bit more", but there are interactions better one generation to the next, in the sense that some developments are more "conditional" than others - a very real threat to the species, will be anticipated and its similarities and differences will vary accordingly. This is to the strength of the species, that things like "balance", "perception" and "instinct" get given special treatment. So I say again, some developments are more conditional: a perceptive generation might decide to train its balance more deliberately, a generation with a lot of instinct, might stay "instinctive", instinct being a more versatile trait.

Over the generations then, the line between inherited and conditional, will blur and reshape - one generation might succeed at overcoming a predator through instinct, another might amass great numbers by remaining perceptive: these things do not write in stone, what the Evolutional direction will be, it may inform something - but not everything! This is basically the point I was trying to make, but there is a step further that you can take it: a predator may be conditional, about its prey species being conditional! If a predator finds prey after prey is relying on "perception" to add to its numbers, the appetite of the predator may increase - essentially wiping a species out, because of an Evolutional vulnerability... predators like variety in their meals!

The point of the idea then, is this: what will happen to the offspring of the predator that preys upon predictable conditionality? Initially, the offspring will benefit just as the parent benefits, and there will be much slaughter; then, down the track, the offspring of the offspring will find there is less conditionality in the prey species and it will cease to hunt on this basis, on this hunger. But it will have developed a narrow conditionality of its own, disaster for the offspring of the offspring! It behoves the later generations to be creative about their conditionality, at least to a degree, to ensure that the hunt is not becoming a trivialized pursuit.

So that is it: we must consider that conditionality can be refined, as much as Evolution can be driven full steam ahead. It is a difficult concept, why would a species avoid developing in the way that seems most obvious? But there are aesthetic quallities at play here, and the prospering of the species, is not limited to the predation of the past - the predation of the past may indeed be far more conditional than is sustainable! That really is the word for it, I think: Evolution must primarily be "sustainable", before it can be secondarily expressed. And that is the struggle for our time: how do we approve the sustainable, how do we nurture it? Nurtured sustainability, is greater than survival!

I welcome your most ardent reprove!

when there is a decrease of predators the prey increases but at the same time this creates more favourable conditions for the prey as their target is plentiful and so becomes more easy, they eat like kings for a season and this causes the numbers of the prey to decrease (because their rate of multiplication becomes slower than the rate they are being eaten)

This will flip the balance eventually as the hunter will no longer be able to eat at the same rate since their stock is decreasing. This will slow their rate of multiplication and increase their rate of early deaths by starvation or not being as healthy and their numbers now will decrease.

this decrease will cause the prey to multiply faster then they are being consumed and their numbers will increase.... do you see a pattern here?

The tactics of the predator/prey will tend to balance each other out. if the predator becomes smarter for a season it's going to cause their food stock to decrease quicker which is going to have a negative impact of their own numbers. if the prey becomes smarter their numbers will flourish but because their numbers will be so abundant it will be easier for the prey to get at them which will cause their numbers to go down. If this doesn't happen an alternative is one becomes extinct because they can no longer keep up with the demand for adaption and this will have a negative impact of the other (and, if they can't adapt, will also become extinct)
 
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Brightmoon

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when there is a decrease of predators the prey increases but at the same time this creates more favourable conditions for the prey as their target is plentiful and so becomes more easy, they eat like kings for a season and this causes the numbers of the prey to decrease (because their rate of multiplication becomes slower than the rate they are being eaten)

This will flip the balance eventually as the hunter will no longer be able to eat at the same rate since their stock is decreasing. This will slow their rate of multiplication and increase their rate of early deaths by starvation or not being as healthy and their numbers now will decrease.

this decrease will cause the prey to multiply faster then they are being consumed and their numbers will increase.... do you see a pattern here?

The tactics of the predator/prey will tend to balance each other out. if the prey becomes smarter for a season it's going to cause their food stock to decrease quicker which is going to have a negative effect of their own numbers. if the prey becomes smarter their numbers will flourish but because their numbers will be so abundant it will be easier for the prey to get at them which will cause their numbers to go down. If this doesn't happen an alternative is one becomes extinct because they can no longer keep up with the demand for adaption and this will have a negative effect on the other (which if they cannot adapt will too become extinct)
. Here!
A90B1A93-BE11-4684-B9FB-AB645A758F8C.jpeg

Enjoy ;)
 
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JackRT

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In Russia they selectively bred silver foxes for tameness and within 50 years they had made Domesticated foxes that barked like domesticated dogs and loved people

Yes, and they ended up looking more like dogs than foxes:
* shorter tail carried high
* tendency to floppy ears
* piebald colouring of coat
 
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Brightmoon

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Not necessarily, depends on if those monstrosities were capable of surviving long enough to breed and pass down their genes. That's what drives the entire process. Breeding. A theistic evolutionary point of view of it is God steers the breeding. Think about it. Man can take plants, dogs, or whatever other species, and chooses traits he likes and then intensely breeds organisms with those desired traits until the genes responsible for those traits do what geneticists call "moving to fixation" IE they get to where 100% of the surviving population has them. In Russia they selectively bred silver foxes for tameness and within 50 years they had made Domesticated foxes that barked like domesticated dogs and loved people God can do the same thing without physically doing anything and to a scale where it not only creates new "breeds" or "strains" of a species but entirely new species, because not only can God bring breeding pairs together with the traits he wants, but he can also reshape the very environment to create a niche for them to survive in, and geographically isolate them to speed up the creation of a new species. It's all planned out.

Yes, and they ended up looking more like dogs than foxes:
* shorter tail carried high
* tendency to floppy ears
* piebald colouring of coat

Humans are domesticated chimps with some of the same anxiety reduction hormonal changes as in these foxes ( it causes us to be more cooperative)
 
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Anguspure

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I didn’t say it wasn’t boring I said it was clear .
I didn't say that it was boring. The post I was commenting on stated that the OP was long winded for the explanation of something simple. Darwin was also long winded in his explanation of something equally simple.
 
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Anguspure

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Humans are domesticated chimps with some of the same anxiety reduction hormonal changes as in these foxes ( it causes us to be more cooperative)
And why should we take the claim of rationalism and truth in a domesticated chimp seriously?
 
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Anguspure

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Not necessarily, depends on if those monstrosities were capable of surviving long enough to breed and pass down their genes. That's what drives the entire process. Breeding. A theistic evolutionary point of view of it is God steers the breeding. Think about it. Man can take plants, dogs, or whatever other species, and chooses traits he likes and then intensely breeds organisms with those desired traits until the genes responsible for those traits do what geneticists call "moving to fixation" IE they get to where 100% of the surviving population has them. In Russia they selectively bred silver foxes for tameness and within 50 years they had made Domesticated foxes that barked like domesticated dogs and loved people God can do the same thing without physically doing anything and to a scale where it not only creates new "breeds" or "strains" of a species but entirely new species, because not only can God bring breeding pairs together with the traits he wants, but he can also reshape the very environment to create a niche for them to survive in, and geographically isolate them to speed up the creation of a new species. It's all planned out.
Breeding explores the limits of genetic flexibility and redundancy, but at no point has any new creature been breed from another. At the outer limits of what is possible the animals are rendered infertile.
The fox is always a fox genetically irrespective of the amount of breeding.
 
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Brightmoon

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I didn't say that it was boring. The post I was commenting on stated that the OP was long winded for the explanation of something simple. Darwin was also long winded in his explanation of something equally simple.
what laymen call evolution is actually about 5 different scientific theories . Not that simple especially since Darwin was describing something that was new,at that time,to the scientific community
 
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Anguspure

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what laymen call evolution is actually about 5 different scientific theories .
Evolutionary devotees also commonly equivocate the different meaning of Evolution, demanding that if one rejects one meaning then one has rejected them all and must be a rabid Creationist.
Not that simple especially since Darwin was describing something that was new,at that time,to the scientific community
Very insightful, and original in that sense, but so simple it is doubtful as to whether he was describing anything new. Simple Natural Selection as described in On the Origin of Species is an "ahaa!" moment because it recognised that something practiced by people for millenia was also effective in nature for the survival of species in a dynamic world.
 
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Jamdoc

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if evolution is true it points to a non-literal creation account.
Not necessarily. There are many laws in nature and they only back up God, they do not detract from God. Who made the rules in the first place?
Genetic code is real, and is the cause of heredity, but who designed the code?
 
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Jamdoc

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Breeding explores the limits of genetic flexibility and redundancy, but at no point has any new creature been breed from another. At the outer limits of what is possible the animals are rendered infertile.
The fox is always a fox genetically irrespective of the amount of breeding.
"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Men are limited on how far we can crossbreed and reproduce what is called microevolution, evolution within a species.
God does not have those limits. God would be able to full on transition into macroevolution without limitation.
Let me ask you this, why is it that God either has to create things through magic completely separate from science, or it has to be spontaneous natural process with no beginning or intelligent design?
God didn't poof the bible into existence, He gave men revelation and they wrote it.
Why can't the God who designed all natural laws who designed the genetic code, utilize natural processes (that would probably not happen on their own spontaneously) that He designed himself, to get the results He desires?
God could have created the perfect world free of sin if He'd wanted. This creation was "very good" but it was not perfect. Instead He let it fall to sin, so that He could save it and remake it perfect in the end. Because while this is not the best world, maybe to God, this is the best way to the best world.
Remember. Men did not create any scientific laws. We only discover and observe them.
God created them. God is the ultimate scientist. He knows everything. Natural laws that we don't have any idea about. God not only knows them, He made them in the first place.
Have you ever been to a graduate level biology seminar? If you don't have an undergraduate level degree in a biological science, you can't even begin to grasp what they're discussing. The language is complete gibberish to you. When it comes to disseminating that information to the general public they have to step it down to a level we can understand, which ends up making what they're talking about seem overly simplistic and may even border on "magic" to us.
Now think ancient men. ancient, primitive, fallible, ignorant men, and God trying to explain creation to us. Do you think He'd give us the technical jargon that we have no hopes of understanding? Do you think He'd give us a step by step recipe for how He created an entire universe? How He created us? His degree in every science makes Einstein look like an ignorant moron. Anything He said would be gibberish to us. So He stepped it down to our level that we could understand it. HOW He did it becomes inconsequential. What's important to know is that He did it, and that he told us He did it, why He did it, and He told us in ways we could understand. If a child asks their father "why is the sky blue" he doesn't tell us about dust and Rayleigh scattering and light wavelengths being interpreted by our brains to have different perceived colors. He gives a simpler explanation. When we children ask our Father how or why, He gives us a simpler explanation we can understand, only the important stuff we need to know. The rest we'll discover as we learn, and we'll only know the full truth when we're really ready to step up past the undergraduate degree of life.
 
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