This is a forum for Charismatics

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I responded to an altar call in an AOG church of 350 people when I was ten.
Unfortunately I was the only one who responded That night. I remember well walking from my seat at the back past all those people to a side room at the front of the church.

May I speak frankly?

I fully agree with most of AOG doctrine.
However, a well known Baptist minister in the UK said:
85% of evangelicals do not understand the justification / sanctification process.
I find myself agreeing with him.

So I lean towards Baptist churches mainly, for they do more state this process. In the AOG church I never heard it.

I grew up crushed by my failure to be good enough for God

I can understand that. The AOG along with some other Pentecostal churches evolved out of the Holiness movements, and so retained some of the legalistic attitudes that came along with it. Consequently there was a confusion between justification and sanctification. The Wesleyan Holiness had the doctrine of entire sanctification, which was originally meant to be obtained by faith, but as has happened with many good teachings, it was corrupted later on to mean that unless a person achieved sinless perfection then his or her conversion wasn't genuine. The "smell" of that false teaching percolated through to the old time Pentecostal church and was the cause of many good people being unfairly condemned for not being able to achieve holiness as quickly as expected.

It wasn't until I started studying Puritan theology that I understood the difference between justification, which is by faith and remains permanently for as long as a believer believes that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead; and sanctification which is a life-time developmental process. I also discovered that the righteousness of Christ was not something that I could obtain by holy living, but was His own righteousness that was conferred on me by the grace of God through the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross. He took my sin on Himself and clothed me with His righteousness.

I believe that the Baptist churches stem historically from the Puritan Calvinistic side of the Church, whereas the AOG comes out of the Arminian side which says that a person can be saved today, but if his holiness falls below standard then he is lost. The AOG is violently opposed to Once Saved Always Saved, and treats the doctrine as heretical. That is why when I started preaching and teaching Puritan Calvinistic doctrine, people looked me sideways and I was treated as if I was "off beam". I was never invited to be in the central circle of preachers in that church for that reason.

I left that church after 11 years, and spent time in Baptist churches, which was a wonderful experience to discover how the other half lives, and now I am an elder and lay-preacher in the Presbyterian Church. No one gives me any problems with my Charismatic/Puritan/Calvinistic theology, and quite rightly so!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes it is a mission. But unlike you I have been kicked out many times, been attacked , punched lifted in the air clothes ripped mobs attacking me, pastors (so called) rushing at me in front of all and physically assaulting me etc etc etc. This happens simply because of the work for which i am sent to them.

This work is apostolic in nature and I have been involved in this work for some 30 years almost. Many home meetings have been planted with other as I sought to press on in the call of God.

For me it all started when I was saved and began to hear God's voice and call. I was hesitant to enter in at first, being afraid of causing a scene and being bold. But then I was baptized with the Holy Ghost and filled with power from on high, such zeal and love flowed in my heart. I was led to the street corner of the main part of the city and began to preach the gospel with power and signs, and soon I met with other believers and we continued to preach the gospel. Demons would fall to the ground on the street corners in front of large crowds and salvations would be seen. But at this time I was going to a Pentecostal Assembly and I saw many things in their order that were not right according to scripture and as God showed me. But the man who was the so called "pastor" was unwilling to change to much. He did allow some order to be changed and had others speak at times and changed the order of the bible study. But eventually he stood in opposition to God's order, sadly.

The call of God I heard clear in my heart and it was reaffirmed when I was visiting a assembly with a guest speaker. He was the so called "prophet of God" and the "spiritual man" who was claiming to lead others introduced him as such. There was a great many people at that place then. As the Prophet got up he would point to a person in the crowd and have them stand up and tell them things about themselves and then he would tell the entire assembly, (possibly 1000 people or so) to raise their hands and point towards the person he prophesied about and speak with tongues. This was troubling, not because I had trouble with tongues, I have also spoken with tongues, but because he went against scripture here. I had the chapter 1 Cor 14 in front of me and it rebuked such an order and i turned to my left and saw two people who were visiting this place and they thought the entire place was mad, just as scripture said they would.

But being hopeful I went up after to the spiritual man and showed him the scriptures about this. But he basically said go back to my assembly and tell them this and ignored me. Then i showed the prophet the verses and he tried to justify his actions and said. Well, they all spoke with tongues at one time in Acts". I told him that that was the initial outpouring but it did not contradict the order of God for the churches in 1 Cor 14. He ten basically didn't know what to say and ignored me.

So I went home asking the Lord if i did something wrong in my approach and he told me to read further down in the chapter as i did and it said this to my surprise,

"37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." ( 1 Cor 14:37,38)

I saw that the exact two men I spoke with who rejected the truth of scripture were the spiritual man and the prophet. I also read the whole chapter and found that there were many things in God's order that should be done in the "commandments of the Lord" for the churches that were not done.

I heard from God to go to many places with his order and tell them this and to help set in order things that are lacking, also I was led to meet with brothers and sisters in homes as we did for many years and saw great things in many homes that were planted. I heard the call from God as I was sitting with brothers in a meeting that he called me with a holy calling and often I would hear him say to me. "I have work for you to do" and I would be sent out to a place. The miraculous and wondrous things of the Lord have been so many and I praise God for his mercy to me a unworthy man of anything.

So when I speak to others about God's order and the thing he has shown me, I do so by command, and according to God's command for all the churches of the saints.

But sadly I often meet with Diotrephese type ministers who exalt themselves and will attack me and find my message to them threatening to their own personal kingdoms they seek to build.

But I do not go to a place or speak with men to hurt or cause damage to any. I have been very patient in the Lords direction and cried many tears for such men and places before I will use any sharpness.

I think that you are fulfilling what Jesus said, "They will throw you out of their synagogues." You are doing the right thing by correcting a leader before everyone, because that was what Paul taught, "Rebuke a leader before all that all my be warned." (or something like that). Yet it is not right to publicly reveal sin in an ordinary believer before going to him or her in private and then following the Biblical procedure for correcting a brother or sister. The church as a whole should not be advised until right at the end of the process and only if the believer refuses to take the private correction. For a preacher to single people out in front of the whole congregation is a violation of what Paul taught about correction of erring believers, and so the Holy Spirit would not be in it, nor would He support such actions. So what spirit was motivating that preacher? You can answer that one for yourself.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I have been away for a while and have not seen (yet) the anger or bitterness spoken of here.

A good deal of Christianity is speaking in love, even when spoken ill of. I know personally how difficult it can be to do so when you are told your beliefs are false, and as a Charismatic you are lumped into a box similar to other faiths, or even worse.

Problem with RELIGION in general is the faithful will take the black and white of that religion and make a legal document out of it to enforce any punishment they can upon those who violate the letter of the law. They ignore the intent of the latter though.

People from all groups do this, not just cessationists, not just Charismatics. Each group has a segment, fringe element that gives the group as a whole a very bad name. It is a wonderful thing to hold conversations with other faith groups in full confidence that opposing ideas can be discussed with a civil, Christ like tone. But religion touches upon a part of the human consition that nothing else can. Eternal life is not something to be triffled with and people will defend that which gives them so tooth and nail.

I take comfort knowing that soon Jesus will return and unify his true people, and we may all be shocked to see that some we thought were outside that element are included and some we thought were no brainers have in fact been shunned.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I have been away for a while and have not seen (yet) the anger or bitterness spoken of here.

A good deal of Christianity is speaking in love, even when spoken ill of. I know personally how difficult it can be to do so when you are told your beliefs are false, and as a Charismatic you are lumped into a box similar to other faiths, or even worse.

Problem with RELIGION in general is the faithful will take the black and white of that religion and make a legal document out of it to enforce any punishment they can upon those who violate the letter of the law. They ignore the intent of the latter though.

People from all groups do this, not just cessationists, not just Charismatics. Each group has a segment, fringe element that gives the group as a whole a very bad name. It is a wonderful thing to hold conversations with other faith groups in full confidence that opposing ideas can be discussed with a civil, Christ like tone. But religion touches upon a part of the human consition that nothing else can. Eternal life is not something to be triffled with and people will defend that which gives them so tooth and nail.

I take comfort knowing that soon Jesus will return and unify his true people, and we may all be shocked to see that some we thought were outside that element are included and some we thought were no brainers have in fact been shunned.

Welcome back! Nice to see you here again.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Thanks! Good to see you

 

[lismore]

Hello. Been away for a while. Good to see the forum still going on

 

[lismore]

IMHO no believer who has genuinely experienced anything of the Holy Spirit could stand against it, I have had some wonderful encounters with the Holy Spirit in Pentecostal and other Charismatic meetings. But there are a lot of extremes and concerning things within the movement, perhaps many 'cessationists' are reacting to these.

Then again it probably is not good manners to start fights as a guest in another person's forum.

God Bless

 

[ByTheSpirit]

IMHO no believer who has genuinely experienced anything of the Holy Spirit could stand against it, I have had some wonderful encounters with the Holy Spirit in Pentecostal and other Charismatic meetings. But there are a lot of extremes and concerning things within the movement, perhaps many 'cessationists' are reacting to these.

Then again it probably is not good manners to start fights as a guest in another person's forum.

God Bless

It has been much quieter around here since I started regularly again a few weeks ago. Good to see you back

As far as cessasionists go, I used to be one and I can attest your words to be true. Though some of them steadfastly refuse to accept anything other than whatthey can control.

 

[lismore]

It has been much quieter around here since I started regularly again a few weeks ago. Good to see you back

As far as cessasionists go, I used to be one and I can attest your words to be true. Though some of them steadfastly refuse to accept anything other than whatthey can control.

Thanks for the welcome back, good to see you still here too!

If I had a discussion with a cessationist now I would probably share some of my testimony with them, something personal that meant a lot to me, I've seen that it hasn't ceased. Could be a start

 

[Traveling teacher]

I have been in and out of charismatic churches for 30 years......
I belong to an evangelical church now but visti the aog when i can......
Being centered on prayer i have to stir up the spiritual gifts or i will wilt...........

I believe when you say pentecostal movement that started around 1900 in LA
Charismatic movement started around 1960s

There are a lot more groups who believe in spiritual gifts...
The underground chinese church operates a lot in these gifts but i dont know if they would refer to themselves as charsimatic....
But i do understand what you mean!!!

I do beleieve that the charismatic mvement could use more organization and order....to stay away from some of the extremes of the past..........
The word has to be balance with the Spirit.....as when you use these gifts there is more power and authority and therfore needs more scrutiny!!!!!!!!
Especially when it comes to specific prophecy!!!
Maybe God is revisiting America and stirring up these gifts to get power back in the church and darkness to vanish!!!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thanks for the welcome back, good to see you still here too!

If I had a discussion with a cessationist now I would probably share some of my testimony with them, something personal that meant a lot to me, I've seen that it hasn't ceased. Could be a start

Good to see a familiar name here. I was away for a while too, but there have been some interesting debates on other sections of the forum that has drawn me back.

I think that there is more adventure and excitement in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. I probably wouldn't have made my decision for Christ if I had not gone to the most lit up noisiest Pentecostal church in the city. I discovered that being a Christian was exciting and adventurous, and that really attracted me. I had experience in Anglican and Presbyterian churches previously as a teenager ad they basically left me bored and cold. What I was doing out in the world was much more exciting for me. But when I got to that AOG church, that really made me start to rock!

I have discovered why young Christians need the excitement and adventure that Pentecostal churches offer. God does it to wean young people out of the world and to show them that being Christian has much more appeal than what the world can offer. Dry, cold and dead churches don't win many for Christ because they cannot compete with the attractions of the world. But that is why Pentecostals are the fastest growing churches and that traditional churches are declining. Pentecostal churches can offer something that the world cannot give and that is why young people go there and become Christians.

But as we mature, we develop our faith in Christ, and we don't need so much excitement as we did before. It is not that we have lost our first love, but we have settled down in faith and go on for Christ with a strong faith in His world. We don't need the excitement and adventure so much, although it is a great bonus when it happens. It is not that I have grown cold and dead in my maturity after 48 years of being a Christian, because I still get much joy and pleasure in walking with the Lord, but my life in Him is based on faith, rather than the 'froth and bubble" that makes up parts of Pentecostal worship.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Good to see a familiar name here. I was away for a while too, but there have been some interesting debates on other sections of the forum that has drawn me back.

I think that there is more adventure and excitement in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. I probably wouldn't have made my decision for Christ if I had not gone to the most lit up noisiest Pentecostal church in the city. I discovered that being a Christian was exciting and adventurous, and that really attracted me. I had experience in Anglican and Presbyterian churches previously as a teenager ad they basically left me bored and cold. What I was doing out in the world was much more exciting for me. But when I got to that AOG church, that really made me start to rock!

I have discovered why young Christians need the excitement and adventure that Pentecostal churches offer. God does it to wean young people out of the world and to show them that being Christian has much more appeal than what the world can offer. Dry, cold and dead churches don't win many for Christ because they cannot compete with the attractions of the world. But that is why Pentecostals are the fastest growing churches and that traditional churches are declining. Pentecostal churches can offer something that the world cannot give and that is why young people go there and become Christians.

But as we mature, we develop our faith in Christ, and we don't need so much excitement as we did before. It is not that we have lost our first love, but we have settled down in faith and go on for Christ with a strong faith in His world. We don't need the excitement and adventure so much, although it is a great bonus when it happens. It is not that I have grown cold and dead in my maturity after 48 years of being a Christian, because I still get much joy and pleasure in walking with the Lord, but my life in Him is based on faith, rather than the 'froth and bubble" that makes up parts of Pentecostal worship.

Well as long as we walk in step with the Spirit his fruit will always be evident. The fruit of the Spirit is FAR MORE desirable than any gifting. Gifts are meant more to establish faith in others. Sure they have a practical application but as we grow closer to God we realize we need less of the sparkle of Christianity (evidence of gifts) and more of the fruit that comes from a daily walk with him.

The funny thing is those two things together do much to advance God's Kingdom. But often we can get caught up in the healings and words the Spirit manifests and forget or even neglect sadly the fruit he longs to develop

 

[Traveling teacher]

True but we need an anointing for any work of Christ we do....stir up the gift..fan it into flames.....

The anointing of prayer and worship is the key tomstirring up these gifts.......
Praying intongues is important wnen you are by yourself and cannot fellowship with others...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well as long as we walk in step with the Spirit his fruit will always be evident. The fruit of the Spirit is FAR MORE desirable than any gifting. Gifts are meant more to establish faith in others. Sure they have a practical application but as we grow closer to God we realize we need less of the sparkle of Christianity (evidence of gifts) and more of the fruit that comes from a daily walk with him.

The funny thing is those two things together do much to advance God's Kingdom. But often we can get caught up in the healings and words the Spirit manifests and forget or even neglect sadly the fruit he longs to develop

Good point. I think that as we mature and base our life and ministry on faith in God's Word and not on our emotions and aspirations, we then use the gifts in a more mature way on the foundation of the fruit of the Spirit. Paul emphasised this when he said "Pursue love and desire the best gifts". I think he meant that we need to ensure that in everything we do and say it is for the love of the brethren and for building them up in the faith, rather than for self-promotion or advancement.

I think this is the fault of many in a prominent ministry, and it shows a relative immaturity in the faith, that they tend to use healing and deliverance to point to themselves rather than Christ, and to imply, "Look at me, and listen to what I have to say, because I am anointed." A genuinely anointed ministry would not have to say that. Their love for the brethren, their desire to glorify Christ and to point people toward Him would make that plainly obvious.

 

[Traveling teacher]

My family has been in a bible church the last 20 years with 3 of those years in a nondenominational. Church...
My wife and i did visit a AOG last week...

Small group so the pastor allowed a few prophecies in the congregation as the Spirit was moving.......

So i asked my wife if she remebered the lessson....
She said no....
Then i asked her if she remebered the prophesy...
She said yes.......
So yes prophesies are important as they build us up..
I desire you all to speak in tongues...but more so to prophesy.... 1 corinthians. 12

 

[Alithis]

It is my established opinion for the most part..over the last 2 years
That the majority charismatic and so called Pentecostal churches are mostly a Sunday feel good club
Who have a number who rattle out tongues on Sunday and gossip on Tuesday.
Listen to all manner of false prophets.
Talk about the gifts but really have no idea what they are talking about.
And in most 99% of regular attendees do not walk in Obedience to the holy Spirit or really care.
They think if you sing some reeally feely songs and get some goosebumps that they are in the will of God.(which is feeling based Christianity fully carnal and thus sinful in nature)

The majority of regular attendees do not heal the sick do not preach the Gospel to any one ,do not drive out devil's(have too many of their own)
Do not repent of sin ,do not baptize people in Jesus name
Do not make more diciples..

The scary part is.the majority of chrasmatic church attendees are not doing the will of God and are asleep and Will not be saved at his coming.

Wake up!

 

[Alithis]

True but we need an anointing for any work of Christ we do....stir up the gift..fan it into flames.....

The anointing of prayer and worship is the key tomstirring up these gifts.......
Praying intongues is important wnen you are by yourself and cannot fellowship with others...

Say what now? We need an annoiniting?
For what exactly.

The Lord Jesus received the holy spirit
Then he said the Spirit of the Lord has (present and past tense) anointed me...

Then he goes and does the works of the father.
We never see or hear of further annointings nor does he ever teach them .
It is a man made concept based on a false premise.

The word annointed has the same use as the word appointed.
When David was annointed king..
He did not have to go and get more annointings everytimr he needed to exercise his authority As long.
It has already been done.

Jesus has all authority and has annointed us with his holy spirit.thus appointing us to be his witness commanding to Go heal the sick....etc.
It is done.
Requiring now only our obedience.

The concept of on going annointings is man made to create a dependency on another man with a so called annointing. its false doctrine that binds people up disallowing them obedience to Jesus commands.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I agree Alithis.

I think wisdom is part of our walk as well. Jesus never preached that every single person we encounter needs a bullet points presentation on joining the Kingdom of Heaven. He said abide and we would bear fruit.

Jesus didn't even preach to everyone he encountered, he did only what the Father told him and showed him.

His life & ministry were predicated on prayer. He spent hours upon hours in prayer and that closeness with the Father enabled him to walk completely in the "power of the Spirit".

I am not saying preaching to everyone is bad but that we obey.

Like you, you did the things you have done because you felt the Spirit leading you to do that. That is great and awesome! But not everyone is called to such a life.

What everyone is called to do is abide in Christ. He said that those who abide WILL bear fruit. That is a promise everyone can bank on. Abiding is the power behind Matthew 28:19-20. Abiding is what gives being "full of the Spirit" true power. The Corinthians were full of the Spirit's power but were not abiding and so Paul sharply rebuked them.

When we abide the Father and Son will manifest themselves to us and make their will known. Then we can do truly remarkable things.

 

[Traveling teacher]

I can understand that. The AOG along with some other Pentecostal churches evolved out of the Holiness movements, and so retained some of the legalistic attitudes that came along with it. Consequently there was a confusion between justification and sanctification. The Wesleyan Holiness had the doctrine of entire sanctification, which was originally meant to be obtained by faith, but as has happened with many good teachings, it was corrupted later on to mean that unless a person achieved sinless perfection then his or her conversion wasn't genuine. The "smell" of that false teaching percolated through to the old time Pentecostal church and was the cause of many good people being unfairly condemned for not being able to achieve holiness as quickly as expected.

It wasn't until I started studying Puritan theology that I understood the difference between justification, which is by faith and remains permanently for as long as a believer believes that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead; and sanctification which is a life-time developmental process. I also discovered that the righteousness of Christ was not something that I could obtain by holy living, but was His own righteousness that was conferred on me by the grace of God through the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross. He took my sin on Himself and clothed me with His righteousness.

I believe that the Baptist churches stem historically from the Puritan Calvinistic side of the Church, whereas the AOG comes out of the Arminian side which says that a person can be saved today, but if his holiness falls below standard then he is lost. The AOG is violently opposed to Once Saved Always Saved, and treats the doctrine as heretical. That is why when I started preaching and teaching Puritan Calvinistic doctrine, people looked me sideways and I was treated as if I was "off beam". I was never invited to be in the central circle of preachers in that church for that reason.

I left that church after 11 years, and spent time in Baptist churches, which was a wonderful experience to discover how the other half lives, and now I am an elder and lay-preacher in the Presbyterian Church. No one gives me any problems with my Charismatic/Puritan/Calvinistic theology, and quite rightly so!

I grew up. coc.....then we went to nondenominational and now have been at a Bible Church for 15+ years.......

I am not too critical of the AOG altar calls.....
As some of this calvin stuff gets wacky....
Our church believes in OSAS and rarely if ever have an altar call...maybe once a year.....

Basically they teach it is not necessary to confess your sins after initial salvation as that holiness stuff is optional....
now many in the geasy grace movement are saying that it is never even necessary to confess sins even at a first time committment....
One of the pastors told me he didnt believe in reconciliation.........
In other words faith only...no rpentence....

So there is a balance but without prayer conviction and confession there is no gospel!!!!
So i am revisiting the AOG from time to time tying to get some flowing of the Spirit....
And trying to shake off this...no convicion gospel....

Since our kids are gone dont know how long we will stay at our current church...but we will be visiting around....

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is my established opinion for the most part..over the last 2 years
That the majority charismatic and so called Pentecostal churches are mostly a Sunday feel good club
Who have a number who rattle out tongues on Sunday and gossip on Tuesday.
Listen to all manner of false prophets.
Talk about the gifts but really have no idea what they are talking about.
And in most 99% of regular attendees do not walk in Obedience to the holy Spirit or really care.
They think if you sing some reeally feely songs and get some goosebumps that they are in the will of God.(which is feeling based Christianity fully carnal and thus sinful in nature)

The majority of regular attendees do not heal the sick do not preach the Gospel to any one ,do not drive out devil's(have too many of their own)
Do not repent of sin ,do not baptize people in Jesus name
Do not make more diciples..

The scary part is.the majority of chrasmatic church attendees are not doing the will of God and are asleep and Will not be saved at his coming.

Wake up!

I think that is too much of a generalisation. I spent many years in three Pentecostal or Charismatic churches and I found the majority of the members loved the Lord and were passionate about serving Christ and winning souls for Him. Of course there was the lunatic fringe, in the same way that there is in any church Pentecostal or otherwise. But I think it is a mistake to tar and feather the "majority" of Pentecostals because of a few.