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This generation

Spiritual Jew

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Some of these interpreters give the impression via their interpretations that something that is being fulfilled is the same as something that has been fulfilled. For example. Jesus died and rose, something that has been fulfilled, not something that is being fulfilled, thus proving they are not the same thing. The times of the Gentiles, something that is being fulfilled, not something that has been fulfilled, thus proving they are not the same thing.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Jesus said this first then He said the following later.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


How can any person reasonably argue that this---till all be fulfilled--does not include this---until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled? In the event some argue that the times of the Gentiles have already been fulfilled, how is that even a reasonable argument to begin with? Where is the proof that it has already been fulfilled?
I agree. And the angels gathering the elect as well. How can that be fulfilled already? If it relates to the spread of the gospel as one claimed, then how is that already fulfilled since the gospel is still being preached? And if they agree that it's still ongoing then how can all the things Jesus spoke about already be fulfilled in 70 AD when "this generation" supposedly passed away? It just doesn't line up.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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If your goal is to have a productive argument - which is one where some disagreements are resolved and the sticking points are identified as quickly as possible, it helps to define exactly what you don't agree with.
I already made that clear. Have you read the whole discussion? I disagree that it's referring to the tribes of Israel in verses like Revelation 5:9, 7:9 and 14:6. The claim was made that every time a tribe or tribes is mentioned in scripture, it's referring to the tribes of Israel. That is what I disagree with. It's clearly referring to people groups throughout the earth rather than just Israel.
 
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John Mullally

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I already made that clear. Have you read the whole discussion? I disagree that it's referring to the tribes of Israel in verses like Revelation 5:9, 7:9 and 14:6. The claim was made that every time a tribe or tribes is mentioned in scripture, it's referring to the tribes of Israel. That is what I disagree with. It's clearly referring to people groups throughout the earth rather than just Israel.
I apologize. That was a general observation. You are doing an excellent job.
 
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3 Resurrections

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How can any person reasonably argue that this---till all be fulfilled--does not include this---until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled? In the event some argue that the times of the Gentiles have already been fulfilled, how is that even a reasonable argument to begin with? Where is the proof that it has already been fulfilled?

Those "TIMES (plural) of the Gentiles" when Jerusalem was being trodden underfoot by the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 was the 42 months when Jerusalem the holy city would be trodden under foot by the Gentiles in Revelation 11:2. Daniel 12:7 predicted that it would be "time, times, and a half a time" before those prophecies concerning the shattering of the holy people would be finished.

This was accomplished in real time by the competing Zealot leaders and their armies engaged in civil warfare against each other in Jerusalem during the years from late AD 66 until early AD 70. Those Zealot leaders had originated from "Galilee of the GENTILES", which was where the insurrectionist Judas the Galilean in Acts 5:37 had come from.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Tribes is used individually to refer to tribes of Israel. If tribes in Matthew 24 was to mean all people, there’d be no need to include people/tongues/nations in Revelation, especially since it’s such a Jewish letter written to people who would be well-versed in the scriptures.
You're not really addressing my argument. If verses like Revelation 5:9 are referring to the tribes of Israel then which tongues is it referring to? Which people? Which nations? In other words, are those three different groups of people or is it 3 different ways of referring to the same people? If it's three different ways of referring to the same people then why can't tribes/kindreds be just one more way of referring to those people?
 
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Jamdoc

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Don’t be making things up. I showed you the context based on the fig tree parable. You’ve yet to engage with my post or the text. All you’ve done is say that it’s wrong based on some other text. It’s kinda like you are avoiding it. Here it is again:

From verse one to verse 34 there are 14 uses of “you” as a second person plural, meaning “y’all who I’m talking to”.

Here’s the parable you are referring to.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
Matthew 24:32-33

Based on this, who is it that needs to look for signs? His immediate audience.

Then He says this


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Matthew 24:34

Again, He’s talking to His immediate audience. And when He said this generation, it’s the generation He just told to look for signs.

So grammatically, it has to be that generation to whom He was speaking to.

You're still not getting it.

Jesus didn't know when the timing was. So it was to the Apostles, and every generation afterward until He came.
You're assuming He knew it was going to happen in 70AD, so it was a message to the Apostles only.

To which I ask you, why do you even read this passage if apparently it has 0 application to you?
What is the point of your belief system and eschatology?
To not have any hope except dying?
To believe God just gave up on the world?
What's the point man?
Enlighten me what big motivation you have to believe these things?
What profit does it have?
 
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Jamdoc

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The actual possibility is that everything went just as He said it would in that generation. I’ll go with Jesus being truthful.

Sin still exists
Death still exists
After the New Heavens and New Earth, neither exist anymore in the text.
If it "happened" in AD70, then it's not truthful or has to be allegorized to meaninglessness.

and of course YOU will change the words of Jesus to claim it wasn't about the 2nd coming.
But we both know that's a lie.
Because from verse 29 on, it's about the Day of the Lord.
 
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Zao is life

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From 1074. genea :

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

This encompasses most of the Scriptures cited in the OP.
Copy @Spiritual Jew @DavidPT
Luke 1
46 And Mary said, My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He looked on the humiliation of His slave woman. For, behold, from now on all generations (Strongs 1074 geneá) shall count me blessed.
49 For the Mighty One has done great things for me; and holy is His name.
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation (Strongs 1074 geneá) to generation (Strongs 1074 geneá).

Luke 16:8
And the unjust steward's lord commended him because he had done wisely. For the children of this age (Strongs 0165 aiṓn) are in their generation (Strongs 1074 geneá) wiser than the children of light.

Acts 14:16
"..who in past generations (Strongs 1074 geneá) allowed all nations to walk in their own ways."

In other words, 1074 geneá can refer to any generation. It can refer to the generation that was alive during 70 A.D, it can refer to a generation that lived prior to 1 A.D, and it can refer to the generation that will be alive when Christ comes to "gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" (Matthew 24:31).

The Olivet Discourse was about:-

(i) The coming destruction of the temple (Matthew 24:1-2; Mark 13:1-2; Luke 21:5-6).
(ii) The coming distress of the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the coming wrath of God upon the city (Luke 21:20-24) *

* Luke uses the words distress and wrath in Luke 21:20-24 (not the word tribulation).

The coming of the Son of man at the end of the Age
The coming of the Kingdom of Christ
The coming tribulation of the disciples of Jesus

(iii) The coming of the Son of man (Matthew 24:3, 30, 36-39; Mark 13:26, 32, 35; Luke 21:27, 31, 36).
(iv) The coming of the kingdom of Christ (Matthew 24:14 & Matthew 25:1; Mark 13:10; Luke 21:31).

(v) The coming tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of Man (Luke 21:12-19 & 27-28; Matthew 24:9-44; Mark 13:9-13).

It's important to take note of the fact that whereas Luke uses the words distress and wrath to talk about the wrath of God coming upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem when it was surrounded by armies (Luke 21:20-24), the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of man is being spoken about in Luke 21:12-19 & 27-28; Matthew 24:9-31, and Mark 13:9 & 11-13.

The Olivet Discourse was about two groups of people: The unbelieving Jews, and the disciples of Jesus. One group was to suffer the wrath of God in 70 A.D and the other group was to suffer great tribulation in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of man.

In my opinion what we need to ask ourselves is if the resurrection of all who died in Christ has occurred yet. If it has not yet occurred, then Christ has not yet come, His second appearance in the clouds of heaven has not yet been seen. If it has occurred, then Christ has returned.

Jesus was speaking about different groups of people and about different generations: One of the generations He was speaking about was the generation that would be alive in 70 A.D. The other one was the generation that would be alive at the time of His return.

Not only was He speaking about different generations, but He was also speaking to every generation of Christian believers that would ever live in-between His ascension and His return.
 
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Jamdoc

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All the signs He gave happened within that generation.

Not the most important one, the one that from verse 29 on is about.
You can allegorize and stretch to claim the rest happened, although it's totally false because there's been worse tribulation and Jesus promised there wouldn't be. But the Day of the Lord? The second coming? Didn't happen.
 
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JosephZ

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I don't understand this line of reasoning. If He came back in 70 AD (which He didn't) then would that mean He gave false hope to all those who died between about 33 AD to 69 AD since He wouldn't have come back in their lifetimes?
Those who died prior to 70AD had hope in Christ, there would be nothing false in that.

Here is what Paul wrote regarding believers who had already died or may die prior to the return of Jesus.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore, comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
 
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Zao is life

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PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for his name's sake.

The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Steven. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold. "But he that shall endure [such things] until the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:13)—both now and hereafter. We understand "end" here in a general sense, for unlike the use of this word in verses 6 and 14, this reference does not have the definite article in the Greek text.

GOSPEL TO BE PREACHED TO THE NATIONS

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then [not until then] shall the end come" (Mt. 24:14). Unless we take this verse clear out of its setting, "the end" in view here is the end or destruction which was to come upon Jerusalem and the temple. This was the question that Jesus was answering in the verses before, and the verses that follow are still speaking about Jerusalem and Judea. Jerusalem would be destroyed, but "first" the gospel would be preached unto all nations (Mk. 13:10).

It was a tremendous prophecy. Picture the scene. Here on the mount of Olives, Jesus was speaking these words to seemingly insignificant men. Who would have supposed that the names of these humble men would become known around the world and that even in our day—almost 2,000 years later—the seeds of truth that they planted would still be producing fruit? Who would have supposed that this unpopular gospel that Christ committed to these men would ever spread beyond that immediate area? Such a vast preaching program unto all nations seemed almost impossible of fulfillment. But it was fulfilled, and in a very real sense the gospel did go to all nations before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D..

On the day of Pentecost when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit, there were present in Jerusalem "devout men, out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5). They heard the gospel preached by Peter and 3,000 were converted that day. Many of these, no doubt, returned to their various countries and preached the gospel.

Later when persecution came against the church, the believers at Jerusalem were scattered and "went every where preaching the word", throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria (Acts 8:1,4). Philip took the message to the city of Samaria with great results (verses 5-8). Later he was directed to a high ranking government official from Ethiopia who was gloriously converted (verses 26-40). It is believed that this man took the message to the continent of Africa and many were converted because of his influential testimony.

Peter took the message to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, an event that was a turning point in the missionary activities of the church (Acts 10, 11). The book of Acts gives a sketch of the mighty missionary work that advanced rapidly.

The message spread to Rome. By the time of Nero, the Christians had grown so numerous that they aroused the jealousy of the government. The story of the great fire in Rome in 64 A. D. —for which the Christians were falsely blamed—is well known. In writing to the Christians at Rome, Paul opens his epistle by saying, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Rom. 1:8), and his closing words talk about the gospel as having been "made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (16:26).

Concerning even far away England, Newton says: "There is absolute certainty that Christianity was planted in this country in the days of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem." Eusebius and also Theodoret inform us that the apostles preached the gospel in all the world and some of them "passed beyond the ocean to the Britannic isles."

By the time Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians, he could say: 'The gospel...is come unto you, as it is in all the world" (Col. 1:6). Likewise, in verse 23, he mentions '"the gospel which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven."

By 70 A. D., the gospel had gone forth to the world for a witness. No longer was God's message to man confined to one nation or race.


Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow
You left out

ALL THOSE WHO DIED IN CHRIST RAISED FROM THE DEAD IN 70 A.D, AND ALL WHO DIE IN CHRIST RAISED FROM THE DEAD SINCE THEN.

Oh but...
 
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JosephZ

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You can allegorize and stretch to claim the rest happened, although it's totally false because there's been worse tribulation and Jesus promised there wouldn't be.
I'm not so sure about that.

Major earthquakes struck Crete 46AD, Rome 51AD, Apamaia 53AD, Laodicea 60AD, and Campania 62AD.

There was famine, war, and false prophets.

During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea. This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul. (Acts 11:27-30)

Pestilence decimates Rome; Suetonius gives the number of those cut down by the plague at thirty-thousand. The pestilence was followed by a hurricane in Campania: “Upon this year, disgraced by so many deeds of shame, Heaven also set its mark by tempest and by disease. Campania was wasted by a whirlwind, which far and wide wrecked the farms, the fruit trees, and the crops, and carried its fury to the neighbourhood of the capital, where all classes of men were being decimated by a deadly epidemic. No outward sign of a distempered air was visible. Yet the houses were filled with lifeless bodies, the streets with funerals. Neither sex nor age gave immunity from danger; slaves and the free-born populace alike were summarily cut down, amid the laments of their wives and children, who, themselves infected while tending or mourning the victims, were often thrown upon the same pyre.” (Tacitus, Annals, XVI, xiii.)

“But the distress of Italy was now heavier and more terrible than that inflicted by war. The troops of Vitellius, scattering among the municipalities and colonies, indulged in every kind of robbery, theft, violence and debauchery. Their greed and venality knew no distinction between right and wrong; they respected nothing, whether sacred or profane. There were cases too where, under the disguise of soldiers, men murdered their personal enemies; and the soldiers in their turn, being acquainted with the country, marked out the best-stocked farms and the richest owners for booty or destruction, in case any resistance was made. The generals were subject to their troops and did not dare to forbid them.” (Tacitus, Histories, II, lvi; Loeb. ed.)

"The land was over run with magicians, seducers, and imposters, who drew the people after them in multitudes into solitudes and deserts, to see signs and miracles which they promised to show by the power of God" The tyrannical zealots who ruled the city [Jerusalem] suborned many false prophets to declare that aid would be given to the people from heaven. This was done to prevent them from attempting to desert, and to inspire confidence in God." (Josephus, Wars VI:5:2:3)

The story upon which I embark is one full of incident, marked by bitter fighting, rent by treason, and even in peace sisnister. Four emperors perished violently. There were three civil wars, still more campaigns fought against the foreigner, and often conflicts which combined elements of both. Success in the East was balanced by failure in the West. The Balkans were in turmoil, the Gallic provinces wavered in their allegiance, and Britain was left to fend for itself no sooner than its conquest had been completed. The Sarmatian and Suebian peoples rose upon us, the Dacian distinguished himself in desperate battles won and lost, and thanks to the activities of a charlatan masquerading as Nero, even Parthia was on the brink of declaring war. Finally, Italy itself fell victim to disasters which were quite unprecedented or had not occurred for many centuries. Whole towns were burnt down or buried throughout the richest part of the coast of Campania, and Rome suffered severely from fires that destroyed its most venerable temples, the very Capitol being set alight by Roman hands. Things holy were desecrated, there was adultery in high places. The Mediterranean swarmed with exiles and its rocky islets ran with blood. In addition to manifold tragedy on the human plane, signs and wonders occurred in heaven and earth, premonitory lightnings and tokens of things to come, auspicious or ominous, doubtful or manifest. In short, Rome’s unparalleled sufferings supplied ample proof that the gods are indifferent to our tranquility, but eager for our punishment. (Tacitus The Histories 1.2-3)

For further reading I would suggest THE WARS OF THE JEWS/HISTORY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM By Flavius Josephus
 
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Jamdoc

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I'm not so sure about that.

Major earthquakes struck Crete 46AD, Rome 51AD, Apamaia 53AD, Laodicea 60AD, and Campania 62AD.

There was famine, war, and false prophets.

During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea. This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul. (Acts 11:27-30)

Pestilence decimates Rome; Suetonius gives the number of those cut down by the plague at thirty-thousand. The pestilence was followed by a hurricane in Campania: “Upon this year, disgraced by so many deeds of shame, Heaven also set its mark by tempest and by disease. Campania was wasted by a whirlwind, which far and wide wrecked the farms, the fruit trees, and the crops, and carried its fury to the neighbourhood of the capital, where all classes of men were being decimated by a deadly epidemic. No outward sign of a distempered air was visible. Yet the houses were filled with lifeless bodies, the streets with funerals. Neither sex nor age gave immunity from danger; slaves and the free-born populace alike were summarily cut down, amid the laments of their wives and children, who, themselves infected while tending or mourning the victims, were often thrown upon the same pyre.” (Tacitus, Annals, XVI, xiii.)

“But the distress of Italy was now heavier and more terrible than that inflicted by war. The troops of Vitellius, scattering among the municipalities and colonies, indulged in every kind of robbery, theft, violence and debauchery. Their greed and venality knew no distinction between right and wrong; they respected nothing, whether sacred or profane. There were cases too where, under the disguise of soldiers, men murdered their personal enemies; and the soldiers in their turn, being acquainted with the country, marked out the best-stocked farms and the richest owners for booty or destruction, in case any resistance was made. The generals were subject to their troops and did not dare to forbid them.” (Tacitus, Histories, II, lvi; Loeb. ed.)

"The land was over run with magicians, seducers, and imposters, who drew the people after them in multitudes into solitudes and deserts, to see signs and miracles which they promised to show by the power of God" The tyrannical zealots who ruled the city [Jerusalem] suborned many false prophets to declare that aid would be given to the people from heaven. This was done to prevent them from attempting to desert, and to inspire confidence in God." (Josephus, Wars VI:5:2:3)

The story upon which I embark is one full of incident, marked by bitter fighting, rent by treason, and even in peace sisnister. Four emperors perished violently. There were three civil wars, still more campaigns fought against the foreigner, and often conflicts which combined elements of both. Success in the East was balanced by failure in the West. The Balkans were in turmoil, the Gallic provinces wavered in their allegiance, and Britain was left to fend for itself no sooner than its conquest had been completed. The Sarmatian and Suebian peoples rose upon us, the Dacian distinguished himself in desperate battles won and lost, and thanks to the activities of a charlatan masquerading as Nero, even Parthia was on the brink of declaring war. Finally, Italy itself fell victim to disasters which were quite unprecedented or had not occurred for many centuries. Whole towns were burnt down or buried throughout the richest part of the coast of Campania, and Rome suffered severely from fires that destroyed its most venerable temples, the very Capitol being set alight by Roman hands. Things holy were desecrated, there was adultery in high places. The Mediterranean swarmed with exiles and its rocky islets ran with blood. In addition to manifold tragedy on the human plane, signs and wonders occurred in heaven and earth, premonitory lightnings and tokens of things to come, auspicious or ominous, doubtful or manifest. In short, Rome’s unparalleled sufferings supplied ample proof that the gods are indifferent to our tranquility, but eager for our punishment. (Tacitus The Histories 1.2-3)

For further reading I would suggest THE WARS OF THE JEWS/HISTORY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM By Flavius Josephus

Tribulation is not just "bad things happen"
Tribulation more specifically is persecution.
The Holocaust was worse than what was experienced around 70AD.
6 million Jews killed on an industrial scale, medically experimented on.
 
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Zao is life

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This quoted from a post in this thread by @Spiritual Jew says it all:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

It does not say:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness...and wickedness.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Those who died prior to 70AD had hope in Christ, there would be nothing false in that.
I think you missed the point. You had said this:

JosephZ said:
Why would a loving God allow generation after generation to pass looking for signs and with the hope of seeing Jesus' return in their lifetime only to have each generation for thousands of years die without ever experiencing it?
You seem to have been suggesting here that if Jesus didn't return in the lifetimes of "this generation" then He would've been giving false hope to people. Using that logic, it would mean He gave false hope to anyone who died after that and before 70 AD since they would have not have experienced His coming.
 
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3 Resurrections

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This quoted from a post in this thread by @Spiritual Jew says it all:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

It does not say:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness...and wickedness.

Peter does not say those exact words, but Isaiah 65 when describing the NHNE did say that sinners would still be present. And death would still be occurring, of both the righteous and the wicked. And childbirth as well (which does not take place for people in the eternal state). And prayers to God (which those in God's presence in heaven don't need to do).

2 Peter 3:13 also does not say:

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth NOTHING BUT righteousness.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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He said that heaven and earth would pass away before His words passed away. He didn’t say that heaven and earth would pass away before this generation.
No, I'm saying that I believe He implies that this generation would pass away when heaven and earth pass away. In other words, heaven and earth passing away, just as Peter described in 2 Peter 3:10-12, would result in this generation passing away.

You might want to refresh yourself with Romans 10.


How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
— Romans 10:14-15
I am very familiar with that passage. I don't understand why you brought it up. How does that passage correlate with this:

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

That passage lines up much better with 1 Thess 4:14-18 which talks about the gathering of the elect from heaven (souls of the dead in Christ who unite with their changed bodies after their resurrection) and from the earth (those who are alive and remain until His second coming).
 
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Peter does not say those exact words, but Isaiah 65 when describing the NHNE did say that sinners would still be present. And death would still be occurring, of both the righteous and the wicked. And childbirth as well (which does not take place for people in the eternal state). And prayers to God (which those in God's presence in heaven don't need to do).

2 Peter 3:13 also does not say:

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth NOTHING BUT righteousness.
But, that's what it means. Otherwise, the verse is pointless. What would even be the point of mentioning righteousness dwells there if wickedness also would dwell there?

We should allow the light of the NT to interpret the more obscure OT for us. John made it very clear that there would be no more death, sorrow, crying or pain in the new heavens and new earth (Rev 21:1-4), so how could wickedness still exist with that being the case? You're not understanding that Isaiah spoke of eternity in a way that his audience back then could understand. The concept of eternity and eternal life was almost completely foreign to OT saints.
 
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