This generation

[JosephZ]

Jesus did not know when this would happen, it was not a detail the Father revealed to Him, or anyone else.

If this is true, then why didn't Jesus tell His disciples that He had no idea when these things would happen rather than say they would happen in their generation? Why didn't He tell just them it could be in a year or maybe 2000+ years rather than give them a false hope of His imminent return?

Therefore, He gave the signs for EVERY GENERATION to watch for, until He actually returns.

Why would a loving God allow generation after generation to pass looking for signs and with the hope of seeing Jesus' return in their lifetime only to have each generation for thousands of years die without ever experiencing it?

 

[Hammster]

I definitely don't believe angels are just spiritual beings, they have mass, they have bodies, they eat and are sometimes even called men in the bible.

But that doesn't take away my point from that specific verse. There are 4 angels that hold back the four winds. These aren't disciples, or men today. These are specific angels for that time period. Again, you have no real answer to this verse as it applies to Matthew 24,

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The subject is gathering, not spreading the gospel at that point.

I never said spirit, I said spiritual. You need to stop misrepresenting what I say. And I do have an answer. I’ve given it to you. And those things happen in that generation. The text, which you necessarily keep ignoring, allows for no other understanding.

 

[Hammster]

Bookends.


Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
— Matthew 23:36

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

 

[Hammster]

Bookends.


Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
— Matthew 23:36

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Obviously this means some future generation

 

[Jamdoc]

I gave you the text. I explained the grammar, which you’ve ignored. The only way for your view to work is to change what Jesus said.

Not at all.
your understanding of the passage requires:
1. Taking the verse in question out of context rather than the continuation of a parable, to make it have nothing to do with the parable.
2. For Jesus to have known when these things would happen when He professed He didn't know.

Because both of these conditions are not true, your understanding is fatally flawed.

and the proof is in the pudding.
Death and sin still exist, Jesus didn't return in AD70.
You're fundamentally wrong because the prediction didn't pan out.

It comes down to the 3 possibilities again.
Either
1. God exaggerates the results so badly that it borders on lying, and is a disappointment of a god at best and we should take every single promise He makes with a grain of salt.
2. Jesus was outright lying and is not God but was just a Charlatan because He was claiming that He'd return in AD70 and fulfill the rest of the Messianic prophecies but didn't.
3. It hasn't happened yet, but will.

Only one of these possibilities results in a God worthy of worship and fulfilling His promises in a way that isn't like a used car salesman.

 

[JulieB67]

You need to stop misrepresenting what I say. And I do have an answer. I’ve given it to you

No offense but what did I misrepresent? I posted this verse,

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I said I know angels aren't just spiritual beings.

You said 24:31 is happening right now (contradiction to your earlier posts) and that the verse coincides with these verses

And that’s happening right now. See Matthew 28:18-20.

Which takes us to an entirely different subject. That's not how context work.

When you don't have an answer you revert back to another argument with "this generation". Well 24:31 has most definitely not happened yet. It's a gathering, not spreading the gospel. And it's a gathering from one end of the earth to another. So no, 24 is not just to one generation.

And I do have an answer. I’ve given it to you.

Your answer was "It's happening now", ok, got it.

 

[JosephZ]

2. For Jesus to have known when these things would happen when He professed He didn't know.

Jesus knew those things would happen in the generation of His disciples or He wouldn't have told them that He would. He only said that He didn't know the day or the hour.

During my last visit to the doctor he told me he would be calling me later this month to schedule an appointment, but I don't know the day or the hour he's going to be calling me. My doctor and I both know that he's going to be giving me a call before the end of the month, but neither of us know the exact day or hour.

 

[Jamdoc]

If this is true, then why didn't Jesus tell His disciples that He had no idea when these things would happen rather than say they would happen in their generation? Why didn't He tell just them it could be in a year or maybe 2000+ years rather than give them a false hope of His imminent return?

Again, context, that verse was part of a parable. The generation that sees the signs, will see everything fulfilled, because they all happen within a short period of time. That was the point, not a specific time when they'd start, but that they'd all happen close enough together that one generation would see it start to finish. The point is actually discarding partial preterism, and making the signs given actually be relevant to His second coming, Rather than part of it fulfilled now, then a huge gap before the rest suddenly happens without warning. The signs are useless in a partial preterist view.

Why would a loving God allow generation after generation to pass looking for signs and with the hope of seeing Jesus' return in their lifetime only to have each generation for thousands of years die without ever experiencing it?

because He is a loving God.
2 Peter 3

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If the day of the Lord had happened in AD70, neither you, nor I would be born, get saved, and get to experience God at all.

and those previous generations? They will experience it. They will in fact get front row seats.

1 Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I mean, that was honestly the question that Paul was responding to in 1 Thessalonians 4... and pretrib like to use verse 18 as "proof" of Pretrib rapture.. but the comfort was not in pretrib timing, which Paul was not even talking about, but the comfort was to the Church of Thessalonica, and their departed brethren.. that they'd be reunited with them at the return of Christ, and that those departed brethren would actually be resurrected first, they wouldn't miss out on the second coming.


Now a flip side question for you.
Why would a loving God have Jesus return just a few years after He left, and leave all those generations after with no hope except dying to exist in an unnatural, unintended, disembodied spirit state forever? Why would a loving God seemingly give up on His creation and just let Satan have it, saving only souls but not redeeming people's bodies as promised, and not reclaiming the world He created as promised?

 

[Hammster]

Not at all.
your understanding of the passage requires:
1. Taking the verse in question out of context rather than the continuation of a parable, to make it have nothing to do with the parable.
2. For Jesus to have known when these things would happen when He professed He didn't know.

Don’t be making things up. I showed you the context based on the fig tree parable. You’ve yet to engage with my post or the text. All you’ve done is say that it’s wrong based on some other text. It’s kinda like you are avoiding it. Here it is again:

From verse one to verse 34 there are 14 uses of “you” as a second person plural, meaning “y’all who I’m talking to”.

Here’s the parable you are referring to.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
— Matthew 24:32-33

Based on this, who is it that needs to look for signs? His immediate audience.

Then He says this


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Again, He’s talking to His immediate audience. And when He said this generation, it’s the generation He just told to look for signs.

So grammatically, it has to be that generation to whom He was speaking to.

 

[Hammster]

Not at all.
your understanding of the passage requires:
1. Taking the verse in question out of context rather than the continuation of a parable, to make it have nothing to do with the parable.
2. For Jesus to have known when these things would happen when He professed He didn't know.

Because both of these conditions are not true, your understanding is fatally flawed.

and the proof is in the pudding.
Death and sin still exist, Jesus didn't return in AD70.
You're fundamentally wrong because the prediction didn't pan out.

It comes down to the 3 possibilities again.
Either
1. God exaggerates the results so badly that it borders on lying, and is a disappointment of a god at best and we should take every single promise He makes with a grain of salt.
2. Jesus was outright lying and is not God but was just a Charlatan because He was claiming that He'd return in AD70 and fulfill the rest of the Messianic prophecies but didn't.
3. It hasn't happened yet, but will.

Only one of these possibilities results in a God worthy of worship and fulfilling His promises in a way that isn't like a used car salesman.

The actual possibility is that everything went just as He said it would in that generation. I’ll go with Jesus being truthful.

 

[Hammster]

No offense but what did I misrepresent? I posted this verse,

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I said I know angels aren't just spiritual beings.

You said 24:31 is happening right now (contradiction to your earlier posts) and that the verse coincides with these verses



Which takes us to an entirely different subject. That's not how context work.

When you don't have an answer you revert back to another argument with "this generation". Well 24:31 has most definitely not happened yet. It's a gathering, not spreading the gospel. And it's a gathering from one end of the earth to another. So no, 24 is not just to one generation.



Your answer was "It's happening now", ok, got it.

He said angels will be sent. Angels have been sent. How is this not clear?

 

[Hammster]

Again, context, that verse was part of a parable. The generation that sees the signs, will see everything fulfilled

All the signs He gave happened within that generation.

 

[Hammster]

Why would a loving God have Jesus return just a few years after He left, and leave all those generations after with no hope except dying to exist in an unnatural, unintended, disembodied spirit state forever? Why would a loving God seemingly give up on His creation and just let Satan have it, saving only souls but not redeeming people's bodies as promised, and not reclaiming the world He created as promised?

That’s not what’s happening. His kingdom is growing.


He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.” He spoke another parable to them, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened.” All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.
— Matthew 13:31-34

What means is He using?


He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.” He spoke another parable to them, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened.” All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.
— Matthew 13:31-34

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
— Matthew 28:18-20

 

[JulieB67]

He said angels will be sent. Angels have been sent. How is this not clear?

He said angels would be sent to "gather" his elect from one end of the earth to another. He's not talking about spreading the gospel as you suggested,

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Angels have been sent to deliver messages but have never been sent to gather the elect from one end of the heaven to another. Common sense alone tells us the 7th trump has sounded. But I guess we have to throw that out the door so certain doctrines can fit.

Gather in the Greek is word 1996 episunago- to collect upon the same place -gather (together) They are going to gather everyone together. How is that not clear?

You said Matthew 24:31 is happening now and coincides with these verses, implying they are the same thing.

Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth."

Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"


Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Amen."

How are these verses even remotely similiar to these,

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

[3 Resurrections]

But my original point to you was that it specifically states "all the tribes of the earth shall mourn". Israel is made up of 12, only the House of Judah was in Jerusalem in 70AD. (with Benjamin and some of Levi)

Those twelve tribes were then in existence in the first century, or Christ would have lied when He told the 12 disciples that, after His regeneration when He sat on the throne of His glory, that they would be seated on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28). This was the case back then in Jerusalem in the early church after Pentecost.

It is true what you are saying that the tribes were "scattered", but that does not mean that those 12 tribes had no existence back then in the first century in Jerusalem. The scattered members of the tribes throughout the empire were still making pilgrimages to Jerusalem for the required feast days at that time.

It was in the destructive AD 66-70 period when God said He would destroy the wicked of that generation "both root and branch" (Malachi 4:1). That was fulfilled when the Zealots burned up all the genealogical records contained in the archives (which burned up the "root" of any tribal ancestry, as well as any "branch" of future progeny with a tribal name on it). In God's eyes, the importance of these ethnic tribal distinctions had been eliminated. In the "One New Man", and the "One fold and One Shepherd", and the "New Jerusalem" under the "New Covenant", the stress is on the foundations of that city being the twelve Apostles of the Lamb - not the 12 tribes. The 12 Apostles were judging the 12 tribes of Israel - not the other way around, which shows us where God's priority was when the New Covenant was launched at His resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

Genesis 12:2 is referring to the descendants of Abraham, not a physical country.

Strong's Concordance
goy: nation, people
Original Word: גּוֹי
Part of Speech: noun masculine; proper name, of a people

Brown-Driver-Briggs
גּוֺי561 noun masculine Genesis 12:2 nation, people.

a. specifically of descendants of Abraham, גּוֺי גָּדוֺל Genesis 12:2;

The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Definition
n m
1. nation, people
a. nation, people
1. usually of non-Hebrew people
2. of descendants of Abraham
3. of Israel

I have never heard of these physical places void of people.

I always thought a nation was defined by the people living in them.

 

[Hammster]

He said angels would be sent to "gather" his elect from one end of the earth to another. He's not talking about spreading the gospel as you suggested,

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Angels have been sent to deliver messages but have never been sent to gather the elect from one end of the heaven to another. Common sense alone tells us the 7th trump has sounded. But I guess we have to throw that out the door so certain doctrines can fit.

Gather in the Greek is word 1996 episunago- to collect upon the same place -gather (together) They are going to gather everyone together. How is that not clear?

You said Matthew 24:31 is happening now and coincides with these verses, implying they are the same thing.

Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth."

Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"


Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Amen."

How are these verses even remotely similiar to these,

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I hope you understand that the elect have to hear the gospel. Let me know when you deal with the “this generation” verses. That’s what the thread is about.

 

[JulieB67]

Those twelve tribes were then in existence in the first century, or Christ would have lied when He told the 12 disciples that, after His regeneration when He sat on the throne of His glory, that they would be seated on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28). This was the case back then in Jerusalem in the early church after Pentecost.

Of course they were in existence but they were scattered into different nations.

It is true what you are saying that the tribes were "scattered", but that does not mean that those 12 tribes had no existence back then in the first century in Jerusalem. The scattered members of the tribes throughout the empire were still making pilgrimages to Jerusalem for the required feast days at that time.

The scattered tribes were dispersed into "foreign nations" all over the world. I highly doubt they were making pilgramages to Jerusalem. Only Judah, Benjamin and Levi remained in Jerusalem.

The 12 Apostles were judging the 12 tribes of Israel - not the other way around, which shows us where God's priority was when the New Covenant was launched at His resurrection.

It doesn't matter who "judges who" They are still brethren James himself still called them 'brethren" And his book is directed to them So why still the distinction if after Christ died and ressurected, they are still being not only addressed but addressed as brethren?

 

[3 Resurrections]

You said Matthew 24:31 is happening now and coincides with these verses, implying they are the same thing.

Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth."

Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"


Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Amen."

How are these verses even remotely similiar to these,

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

You are right. They are not speaking of the same thing. Worldwide evangelism that brings believers one by one into the kingdom over the span of centuries is not the same thing as a one-time event when the 7th trumpet blows and gathers together all at once those "elect" from the four winds of heaven.

But Hammster is also correct that "This generation" of the first century is the one which would experience this, while there were still tribal distinctions intact in Jerusalem - specifically "those who pierced Him". Only one "wicked and perverse" generation of the 12 tribes of Israel was guilty of being the "betrayers and murderers" of Christ. That guilt did not get passed down to generations after that.

 

[JosephZ]

I always thought a nation was defined by the people living in them.

Nations are the people. People connected by a certain language, culture, lineal descent from an ancestor, etc.. A nation can reside in a single country or it can be scattered among several countries. A country may contain one nation or multiple nations. Today the word nation can also be used to describe a physical/political country, but in the Bible it always refers to a people group.