In what manner does God need to glorify himself?wsgm said:God chose a people for Himself for the same reason He does everything: For His own glory.
wsgm said:God chose a people for Himself for the same reason He does everything: For His own glory. ...
Nowhere in his post did wsgm indicate, or imply, that God needs to glorify Himself.Rev. Smith said:In what manner does God need to glorify himself?
Asar'el said:Nowhere in his post did wsgm indicate, or imply, that God needs to glorify Himself.
It is more accurate to say that all things are and were created for the pleasure of God; or simply, that it pleased God so to do.
In Revelation 4:11 the 24 elders before the throne of God declare (and we agree!
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
2 Corinthians 4:15 declares,
For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
And earlier, in 1 Corinthians 10:31 we are instructed
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
God's pleasure and God's glory, therefore, are quite tightly linked.
A wise statement for a 15 year old. Ofcourse, the church being the body of believers and not an organization.shawn_h76 said:The church is the isreal of God spiritually.
Those are good verses, but there is more to it than just the spiritual aspect. There is a physical and spiritual Israel, and there is something worthy of God's attention in the physical or we would not experience it now and for the thousand years of Christ's reign on earth. When Jesus' came back, He said that He has come for the "lost sheep of the house of Israel". The house of Israel is one of the natural branches of All Israel that is the two houses together - Judah (the Jews) and Israel (the Church). It is true, that spiritually, we are all equal and the same in Christ, but God did have a physical chosen people by which He said He would bless all the nations of the earth through - the seed of Abraham. All Israel (physical) is these two houses, together, that the New Covenant is to, and God has promised to physically reunite them before or at the end. (Ez. 37:16,17). We are not to boast against, being arrogant enough to replace or do away with, the natural branches, but remember that God can and has promised to save a remnant of both houses along with all who come to Christ as wild branches to be grafted into the root of Abrahm.shawn_h76 said:The church is the isreal of God spiritually.
galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
galatians 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
raphe said:Those are good verses, but there is more to it than just the spiritual aspect. There is a physical and spiritual Israel, and there is something worthy of God's attention in the physical or we would not experience it now and for the thousand years of Christ's reign on earth. When Jesus' came back, He said that He has come for the "lost sheep of the house of Israel". The house of Israel is one of the natural branches of All Israel that is the two houses together - Judah (the Jews) and Israel (the Church). It is true, that spiritually, we are all equal and the same in Christ, but God did have a physical chosen people by which He said He would bless all the nations of the earth through - the seed of Abraham. All Israel (physical) is these two houses, together, that the New Covenant is to, and God has promised to physically reunite them before or at the end. (Ez. 37:16,17). We are not to boast against, being arrogant enough to replace or do away with, the natural branches, but remember that God can and has promised to save a remnant of both houses along with all who come to Christ as wild branches to be grafted into the root of Abrahm.
The physical is still obviously important to God, and this surely means that He knows who are His seed and has His eye on them through history - always being faithful and never breaking His covenant with Abraham by which we are all blessed.
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Ezekial 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Hosea 8:8 ¶ Israel is swallowed up; Now they are among the Gentiles Like a vessel in which is no pleasure.
Amos 9:9 "For surely I will command, And will sift the house of Israel among all nations, As grain is sifted in a sieve; Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground.
Rom 11:18 stop being arrogant towards the branches. But if you are arrogant, [remember] _you_ do not sustain the root,
_but_ the root [sustains] you!
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off, so that _I_ should be grafted in."
20 Rightly [said]! They were broken off by unbelief, but _you_ have stood by your faith. Stop being conceited, _but_ be
fearing.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps neither will He spare you.
22 Therefore, look at [or, consider] [the] goodness and severity of God: on the one hand upon the ones having fallen,
severity; on the other hand upon you, kindness, if you remain in the goodness; otherwise, _you_ also will be cut off.
23 But also those, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to again graft them in.
4 For if _you_, the [one] by nature of the wild olive tree, were cut out, and contrary to nature, were grafted into a
cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural ones, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire [for] you* to be unaware, brothers [and sisters], of this secret [or, mystery], so that you* shall
not be wise in your* own conceits, that hardness in part [fig., partial stubbornness] has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, just as it has been written, "The One delivering will come out of Zion, and He will
turn away impiety [or, ungodliness] from Jacob;
Gen 22:18 And in your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.
LOL! Same here. All I can say is to trust in God and don't lean on your own understanding:Svt4Him said:Here's my answer- I have no idea.
solomon said:Jews weren't chosen to be the only people saved, but as the instruments to bring the message and the means of God's salvation to all of His people.
Rev. Smith said:In what manner does God need to glorify himself?
Let me throw my 2 cents worth in.kau2u said:God chose the jewish people to work out his salvation through them. Why would God need to chose "A" people. Isn't our God big enough to chose all people? And wouldnt' that make more sense
Not how God glorifies Himself, but how does God need to glorify Himself? IOW, why would God need to glorify Himself? I have a hard time imagining God being insecure.oworm said:Thats a very good question
Firstly, he glorifies himself in order to show us that he is LORD
He glorifies himself in order to show us that he is LORDlucaspa said:So what is the purpose of the self-glorification?
allow me to paint a second picture for you if I may.Serapha said:Hi there!
Let me paint a picture for you...
It's after the creation and fall of man, and God is no longer walking on the earth and talking with man, but the only way to communicate is through prayer.
God sits on His magnificent throne as God the Father, with the presence of the Eternal Word and Holy Spirit there on that singular throne. And God looks at his creations on the earth, looking for upright people who will accomplish His work... and He sees Noah, but God also sees all the peole who are not upright and righteous, and God call Noah to a special work, knowing that Noah will not fail.
You know the rest.
and mankind moves on... and then God spots Abraham. He calls him out of a polytheistic home and out of a polytheistic society and calls him away from his family, and God promises Abraham a land for his obedience.
You know... we don't know if God offered this same proposal to others because there's no other record, but when God offered that plan to Abraham, Abraham listen to what God said, and in time, learned to be so close to God that he was the only person to be called "God's friend".
The reward of that walk with God was the promise of a land and a people of his generations that would serve God, just as God said in the intial proposal.
Jas 2:23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
God chose "a people" and He tested them until they proved themselves... that took nearly 3500 years, until the time of the Babylonian captivity when "those chosen people" stopped trying to incorporate idol worship with worship to God. You see, "those chosen people" failed again and again, but Abraham's faith was the "guarantee" until the time of Christ....and God's promised Abraham a land and a people.
And they have paid a price for being the chosen of God... just as Christian pay a price in this world for being the chosen of God.
God not only is big enough to chose all people, but God did predestine all people to salvation. People either chose God or reject God, that is where free will fits in with predestination.
~serapha~
I agree with Ichus and also G-d never chose a people or a nation,he chose 1 person,1 family.He chose Abraham and brought him out and made him his own.He brought Moses out also and when Israel became a nation upon walking out with the stranger,they came to the mountain and sinned.G-d told Moses to stand aside and he would kill the multitude and make a nation out of Moses.Moses pleaded with G-d and Moses had 2 sons.Gershom{stranger} and Eliezer{son of my house}.ischus said:Your perception of the Israelites is shaped by our modern interpretations. God always had a heart and a ministry to the Gentiles. They were called to be His people just as the "Jews" were. In fact, the "Jews" were never a pure blooded race- the patriarchs, those who came out of Egyptain bondage, etc, all show the universality of the Jewish nation, how Gentiles lived side by side with "Jews." God has always been working with Gentiles as well as Jews. He is not biased. The only reason that he chose a specific people was first of all to have a tangible line for the Messiah to come from, and also because the Jews were one of the few groups of people who ever allowed God to use them to reveal more of His word, his Will, his character, etc.
Sure He is! However, because man sinned, God had to (perhaps "had to" is not the best choice of words-maybe "wanted to" might be better) provide a means that man might be reconciled to Him. The Messiah had to come from somewhere, and God chose the Jewish race from which He was to come in order to provide our redemption. The Jewish race was "chosen" to become the race from which the Saviour of the world was to come.kau2u said:God chose the jewish people to work out his salvation through them. Why would God need to chose "A" people. Isn't our God big enough to chose all people? And wouldnt' that make more sense
Since the vast majority of Christians do not know the Jewish view of the "chosen people", I am going to explain it in an unbiased way, and hopefully I will be permitted to post this.kau2u said:God chose the jewish people to work out his salvation through them. Why would God need to chose "A" people. Isn't our God big enough to chose all people? And wouldnt' that make more sense
It's good to hear the foundation from an adhearant, that is the Old Catholic understanding as well of the meaning of Choice, that the Lord choose the Jews to receive his revelation, but that it is through them that He revealed himself to all his people.jewishprincess613 said:Since the vast majority of Christians do not know the Jewish view of the "chosen people", I am going to explain it in an unbiased way, and hopefully I will be permitted to post this.
First of all, the "chosen people" does not mean that G~d favoured the Jews over all people and therefore chose only them to take His wonderful Torah. In fact, it is said in the Talmud that G~d had offered it to ALL other nations BEFORE the Jews, and all rejected it. The Jews were the ones who accepted it and so they received the yoke of the mitzvos. This does not mean that G~d hates others and that all are doomed. It means that the Jews are required to fulfill THEIR mitzvos (commandments) and the Gentiles are required to fulfill THEIR'S. Yes, even Gentiles were given commandments and are expected to live a righteous life. After the flood, G~d made a covenant with Noach and this applies to all. The Jews received more mitzvos when they accepted the Torah, but the 7 Laws of Noach still and always will apply to the Gentiles. It is not a matter of favoritism at all, and that is a huge misconception by most people. G~d has a covenant with all--it is just not the same one, and a matter of understanding that G~d loves all of His children, Jewish or not.....
jewishprincess613 said:Shema Yisroel: Adonai Eloheynu, Adonai Echad
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