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The ENTIRE point of trying to encourage companies to hire more minorities is to correct a balance that was entirely artificial in the first place. Whites had literally centuries of having the game tilted artificially in their favour, yet now people are whining because of some small artificial rebalancing that won't put minorities above whites, but might just create a situation which gives everyone an even playing field.

Seriously? As white people, we're supposed to find that wildly unfair?

No person today had centuries of anything. And these policies impact individuals. It puts individual people above other individual people in regards to admittance to schools, hiring etc. That is systemic racism.

If you want to end systemic racism, and thoughts of racism, then continue to educate people that racism belongs in the past. If you keep drawing lines along race, that keeps it in the present.
 
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That's so yesterday. Blacks have the same opportunities as whites today. We don't live in the south anymore.
“The blacks are the real racists!” ?
You sure you wanna run with this?
 
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I know he's a pariah now due to the #MeToo stuff and his well-publicized sexual behaviors, but whenever anyone goes down that "that was so yesterday" route, I can't help but think of the bit by Louie CK where he says every few years or so white people add another hundred years onto how long its been since slavery existed in America. He says something like "Basically, it was 140 ago when you could own a person. That's two 70 year old ladies living back to back!"

He may be a pervert, but he's right. We're quick to forget if it didn't affect us personally (i.e., if we're not black) so that it seems like a long time ago, and of course Americans are famously stereotyped by Europeans and others as people who think 100 year old buildings, statutes, etc. are old (I think the joke is something like "Americans think 100 years was a long time ago, while Europeans think 100 miles is a long distance", referring to the occasional European tourist who assumes that they can land in NYC and visit San Francisco on the same day, because there are actually parts of Europe where you can visit multiple countries in one day). So 140 years seems like forever ago.

But then I remember how my grandfather was born on a farm in Illinois in 1911, the same year of the lynching of mother and son Laura and J.D. Nelson in Oklahoma. Statistics collected on the phenomenon of lynching (which mostly, but not totally, affected black people; 70%+ of all lynching victims were black) by the Tuskegee Institute end in 1968, indicating that the phenomenon went on -- however rarely -- until the late 1960s (though as you can read at the link, there are incidents even after that). 1968 was the year my own mother graduated from high school. That was yesterday, for all intents and purposes.

None of this is to say that I agree with all the premises involved in modern 'woke' tribalism (I think I made that clear in my other post), but let's not pretend that this is ancient history and couldn't possibly affect people today. If you ever meet an Armenian person, chances are they have a very similar family story about a relative or maybe even multiple relatives lost during the genocides in the waning days of the Ottoman Empire (1915-1918), which were much more recent but also not within the lifetimes of probably about 99% of people living today (my grandfather is my oldest living relative, and he was born in 1921; the 1911 grandfather died years ago, when I was around 20). Yet I don't think anyone would deny that those genocides could and do have an effect on the modern Armenian community as a whole. So why should modern black Americans or others be any different? Sure it was a little bit longer ago, but not so much as to not have histories past down, and pain with them.

I suppose you could say "Well then why not let go of the pain so that you can move forward", but not being black myself I don't think it's my place to tell other people to do with their pain that I do not and cannot ever experience. It's pretty good just a general policy not to tell people how to live their lives and deal with their own emotions, right? I mean, isn't that what's so irritating about this 'white privilege' stuff -- that others are telling you you have this problem and this is what you need to do about it? The difference being, I suppose, that the fact that blacks suffered through slavery in the USA is not really debatable, while plenty of people will debate whether or not 'white privilege' really exists.

I dunno...the point is: just because it wasn't yesterday doesn't mean it was forever ago. You can disagree with some central 'social justice' tenets (though some people will hate you for it) and still acknowledge the reality of racial injustice in the US' history and the effects that this has on the present. If Flint, MI were full of Buffys and Beckys and Susans, does anyone really think their water crisis would've been ignored for so long, or the handling of it so horribly mismanaged? (NB: Flint is still over 40% white, so the point isn't that the government purposely did anything because they hate blacks and Flint is majority black, since it's not like they could direct the bad water to only go to black homes, but rather than the town as a whole is kind of a blight and Michigan already has so many problems and so little money, they didn't deal with it properly; if it was a place with a higher tax base/bracket, they probably would've jumped to it, because money talks, and white people do tend to be more wealthy than black people in the USA. That's an economic fact, not a statement of personal or community worth.)
 
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“The blacks are the real racists!” ?
You sure you wanna run with this?

There are racists in every race and we could have a discussion as to current racism. However that had nothing to do with my post. Blacks have the same opportunities as whites these days. We don't live under the Democrats of the south anymore. Jim Crowe is gone. Blacks can attend school, college and get jobs just like anyone else.
 
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rjs330

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I know he's a pariah now due to the #MeToo stuff and his well-publicized sexual behaviors, but whenever anyone goes down that "that was so yesterday" route, I can't help but think of the bit by Louie CK where he says every few years or so white people add another hundred years onto how long its been since slavery existed in America. He says something like "Basically, it was 140 ago when you could own a person. That's two 70 year old ladies living back to back!"

He may be a pervert, but he's right. We're quick to forget if it didn't affect us personally (i.e., if we're not black) so that it seems like a long time ago, and of course Americans are famously stereotyped by Europeans and others as people who think 100 year old buildings, statutes, etc. are old (I think the joke is something like "Americans think 100 years was a long time ago, while Europeans think 100 miles is a long distance", referring to the occasional European tourist who assumes that they can land in NYC and visit San Francisco on the same day, because there are actually parts of Europe where you can visit multiple countries in one day). So 140 years seems like forever ago.

But then I remember how my grandfather was born on a farm in Illinois in 1911, the same year of the lynching of mother and son Laura and J.D. Nelson in Oklahoma. Statistics collected on the phenomenon of lynching (which mostly, but not totally, affected black people; 70%+ of all lynching victims were black) by the Tuskegee Institute end in 1968, indicating that the phenomenon went on -- however rarely -- until the late 1960s (though as you can read at the link, there are incidents even after that). 1968 was the year my own mother graduated from high school. That was yesterday, for all intents and purposes.

None of this is to say that I agree with all the premises involved in modern 'woke' tribalism (I think I made that clear in my other post), but let's not pretend that this is ancient history and couldn't possibly affect people today. If you ever meet an Armenian person, chances are they have a very similar family story about a relative or maybe even multiple relatives lost during the genocides in the waning days of the Ottoman Empire (1915-1918), which were much more recent but also not within the lifetimes of probably about 99% of people living today (my grandfather is my oldest living relative, and he was born in 1921; the 1911 grandfather died years ago, when I was around 20). Yet I don't think anyone would deny that those genocides could and do have an effect on the modern Armenian community as a whole. So why should modern black Americans or others be any different? Sure it was a little bit longer ago, but not so much as to not have histories past down, and pain with them.

I suppose you could say "Well then why not let go of the pain so that you can move forward", but not being black myself I don't think it's my place to tell other people to do with their pain that I do not and cannot ever experience. It's pretty good just a general policy not to tell people how to live their lives and deal with their own emotions, right? I mean, isn't that what's so irritating about this 'white privilege' stuff -- that others are telling you you have this problem and this is what you need to do about it? The difference being, I suppose, that the fact that blacks suffered through slavery in the USA is not really debatable, while plenty of people will debate whether or not 'white privilege' really exists.

I dunno...the point is: just because it wasn't yesterday doesn't mean it was forever ago. You can disagree with some central 'social justice' tenets (though some people will hate you for it) and still acknowledge the reality of racial injustice in the US' history and the effects that this has on the present. If Flint, MI were full of Buffys and Beckys and Susans, does anyone really think their water crisis would've been ignored for so long, or the handling of it so horribly mismanaged? (NB: Flint is still over 40% white, so the point isn't that the government purposely did anything because they hate blacks and Flint is majority black, since it's not like they could direct the bad water to only go to black homes, but rather than the town as a whole is kind of a blight and Michigan already has so many problems and so little money, they didn't deal with it properly; if it was a place with a higher tax base/bracket, they probably would've jumped to it, because money talks, and white people do tend to be more wealthy than black people in the USA. That's an economic fact, not a statement of personal or community worth.)

Each of us deals with our own pain in our own way. However, millions of people go to counseling in order to deal with it and move past it. Counselors are skilled at helping people to get past their pain. They don't teach you how to stay hurt. That is for your own pain that you've experienced.

The people that are living with pain of slavery don't exist anymore. None of the black community of today we're slaves. And even though there are some people still around that experienced Jim Crowe that majority of blacks today never experienced that either.

Living in the past that you never experienced is a CHOICE. You don't need to.
 
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Blacks have the same opportunities as whites these days.

That's demonstrably untrue. Sure, the gap has narrowed, but you can look at any number of factors (e.g. school funding, disparate treatment from the justice system, perceived credit worthiness, hiring rates, etc) to see that it hasn't closed. Heck, it was only 2013 when the Republican party in North Carolina explicitly tried to disenfranchise blacks.

The people that are living with pain of slavery don't exist anymore. None of the black community of today we're slaves. And even though there are some people still around that experienced Jim Crowe that majority of blacks today never experienced that either.

Living in the past that you never experienced is a CHOICE. You don't need to.

Do you really believe that the impacts of Jim Crow ended in 1965?
 
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dzheremi

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Living in the past that you never experienced is a CHOICE. You don't need to.

But is living with the effects of what has happened to your community as a whole a choice, or is it part of being a part of that community?

To take it away from race so that maybe it will be less controversial: my mother died of skin cancer. My father now has skin cancer. I do not have skin cancer, as far as I know, but you bet I am very cognizant of any new moles or marks I might find on my body at any time. It would be stupid to ignore them because "Well, that's not me", because my family history has a direct impact on what I should be concerned about, health-wise. That makes sense, right?

I don't see why the same can't hold for others in other dimensions. If they start off with nothing, in an environment where they can't really build any wealth (not true today, yes, but certainly true in the past with the sorts of laws that used to be common in the USA), then how would that not predispose their progeny to hardship, and change their priorities accordingly?

Again, none of this is to say I necessarily buy into 'third wave anti-racism' or whatever (since to me that's like buying into a political party platform by now, and I don't like political parties), only to say that I am still sympathetic to the idea that the effects of racism in history are probably longer-lasting than any person who doesn't directly experience them could ever testify to. As comedian Chris Rock put it in one of his specials, the area he lives in is full of rich people, with a few black people. The black people are all fellow multi-millionaire celebrities, but his neighbor is a white guy, who's a dentist. Not the greatest dentist in the world, not the most famous, not a guy who revolutionized dentistry...just a dentist. I believe Rock then puts it as "The black man has to run to what the white man can walk to." (i.e., you can be a mediocre/just okay nobody and be white and live in a millionaire neighborhood with Chris Rock, but to be black and live there you have to be Chris Rock, or Beyonce, or some other black household name.) At least with regard to his example, I don't see the untruth there.
 
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With what wealth that they’ve accumulated over the generations?


Whites Have Huge Wealth Edge Over Blacks (but Don’t Know It)

I never said wealth, I said opportunity. You can't gain wealth unless you take advantage of the opportunities afforded to you. I would never argue that throughout history blacks have had the same opportunities as whites. That's a fact. They haven't.

BUT they do now. They can get jobs, go to school, college etc just like white people can. And when they really start taking advantage of those opportunities then their wealth will grow too. But it won't if you don't take advantage.

I grew up poor as did my wife. But we took advantage of the opportunity to attend school and get jobs. Now my family is no longer poor. The opportunities were not handed to us. We had to seek them out and use our skills to make them work.
 
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I never said wealth, I said opportunity. You can't gain wealth unless you take advantage of the opportunities afforded to you. I would never argue that throughout history blacks have had the same opportunities as whites. That's a fact. They haven't.

BUT they do now. They can get jobs, go to school, college etc just like white people can. And when they really start taking advantage of those opportunities then their wealth will grow too. But it won't if you don't take advantage.

I grew up poor as did my wife. But we took advantage of the opportunity to attend school and get jobs. Now my family is no longer poor. The opportunities were not handed to us. We had to seek them out and use our skills to make them work.

Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that all racism is truly gone, and that all we have left is whatever leftover byproducts exist from past racism, there's still a very high correlation between wealth and opportunity, wherein wealth provides more opportunity to acquire even more wealth. That alone is enough to mean that, on average, blacks don't have as much opportunity as whites, because blacks were systematically forced into the poverty that robs them of opportunity.
 
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That's so yesterday. Blacks have the same opportunities as whites today. We don't live in the south anymore.
I dont kow how the devil has made many whites believe this narrative that blacks are treated equally and have equal opportunity

I think theres alot of whites that aren't racist but are blind to the struggles blacks face in this country

My father didnt want to talk about it when i brought it up to him. I think in my dads case he is a prideful man who is proud of his hard work and might not want to believe that a black man would likely have to work even harder to get what he has and be discriminated against in the process of that

Im thankful to have been exposed to people from all places and backgrounds. Living in Connecticut i am able to get along with the richest of the rich in Greenwich but also connect with the poor in cities like Hartford and New Haven

There is no favortism, i love all people

One last note, ive never heard this idea of white privilege being a sin and i strongly disagree with that. Maybe it depends on what someone does or doesnt do with their white privilege
 
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rjs330

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But is living with the effects of what has happened to your community as a whole a choice, or is it part of being a part of that community?

To take it away from race so that maybe it will be less controversial: my mother died of skin cancer. My father now has skin cancer. I do not have skin cancer, as far as I know, but you bet I am very cognizant of any new moles or marks I might find on my body at any time. It would be stupid to ignore them because "Well, that's not me", because my family history has a direct impact on what I should be concerned about, health-wise. That makes sense, right?

I don't see why the same can't hold for others in other dimensions. If they start off with nothing, in an environment where they can't really build any wealth (not true today, yes, but certainly true in the past with the sorts of laws that used to be common in the USA), then how would that not predispose their progeny to hardship, and change their priorities accordingly?

Again, none of this is to say I necessarily buy into 'third wave anti-racism' or whatever (since to me that's like buying into a political party platform by now, and I don't like political parties), only to say that I am still sympathetic to the idea that the effects of racism in history are probably longer-lasting than any person who doesn't directly experience them could ever testify to. As comedian Chris Rock put it in one of his specials, the area he lives in is full of rich people, with a few black people. The black people are all fellow multi-millionaire celebrities, but his neighbor is a white guy, who's a dentist. Not the greatest dentist in the world, not the most famous, not a guy who revolutionized dentistry...just a dentist. I believe Rock then puts it as "The black man has to run to what the white man can walk to." (i.e., you can be a mediocre/just okay nobody and be white and live in a millionaire neighborhood with Chris Rock, but to be black and live there you have to be Chris Rock, or Beyonce, or some other black household name.) At least with regard to his example, I don't see the untruth there.

Black people are being constantly told and reminded about slavery and how their people suffered. They are told about how racist people were and are. Where are the voices that are crying out, "your ancestors were.slaves, but you are not!" They are not slaves. They don't know any slaves. They need to have voices that tell them that they don't have to be paralyzed by slavery they never experienced. They need to have voices that tell them they can succeed. They need to have voices that tell them going to school, college and working hard can make them successful. You don't rise up out of poverty by people just handing you buckets of cash. You rise up by looking for and finding opportunity and sometimes making your own opportunities.

MOST white people aren't where they are because their parents were rich. My son is doing very well because he's smart and went to school. My daughter is doing well because she pursued a medical education. I wasn't able to help them.at all. My parents didn't help.me financially either, but I'm doing well now because of what I chose to do with my life.

My ancestors were dirt poor fleeing tyranny. My grandparents had no electricity, no car, no running water etc. So, no excuses.

Go out and stop worrying about what happened that long ago. It doesn't have to affect you today.
 
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dzheremi

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You must know different black people than I do. I don't know any who are "paralyzed by slavery", though that could be because I live in the North in a state that was not historically considered a slave state, and is really the economic, entertainment, and innovation hub of the country (California), so some of us are in a bit of a bubble. Still, head over the bay from SF to Oakland or Richmond and you'll definitely notice the change from "urban professional tech industry and gay dudes" to "stabby food desert and opportunity vortex", and it's definitely not because people haven't been trying to do something about it for decades. The Black Panther Party was founded in Oakland in 1966, but it scared the heck out of white people, so it's largely remembered by white people as "militant blacks with guns being scary" and not what it was formed to be (anti-police brutality, and establishing social programs like free breakfast for children, free medical clinics, and so on).
 
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You must know different black people than I do. I don't know any who are "paralyzed by slavery", though that could be because I live in the North in a state that was not historically considered a slave state, and is really the economic, entertainment, and innovation hub of the country (California), so some of us are in a bit of a bubble. Still, head over the bay from SF to Oakland or Richmond and you'll definitely notice the change from "urban professional tech industry and gay dudes" to "stabby food desert and opportunity vortex", and it's definitely not because people haven't been trying to do something about it for decades. The Black Panther Party was founded in Oakland in 1966, but it scared the heck out of white people, so it's largely remembered by white people as "militant blacks with guns being scary" and not what it was formed to be (anti-police brutality, and establishing social programs like free breakfast for children, free medical clinics, and so on).
The media pushes that narrative on them, the media also likes them to think that no whites ever tried to help them.

Its really the devils work, he wants to divide and conquer. He wants to not only turn whites and blacks against eachother but even turn blacks against eachother

One more thing i see that prevents some blacks from moving forwards is rap music. I was a huge fan of rap when i was younger but i see now its toxic, hateful, negative and racist. Unfortunately the kids start idolizing the popular entertainers at a young age
 
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dzheremi

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The media pushes that narrative on them, the media also likes them to think that no whites ever tried to help them.

To continue with the theme, I wonder what the White Panther Party was all about, then. They were obviously white people, but had the same sorts of goals as the Black Panthers did. That doesn't seem to fit your narrative. :scratch: Or do you think black people just believe whatever 'the media' tells them, for whatever reason?

Its really the devils work, he wants to divide and conquer. He wants to not only turn whites and blacks against eachother but even turn blacks against eachother

This I agree with. It is the devil's work to turn people against each other. That's why I tried to post a good example in the Black/White Panther Parties. That's people working together towards common goals.

One more thing i see that prevents some blacks from moving forwards is rap music. I was a huge fan of rap when i was younger but i see now its toxic, hateful, negative and racist. Unfortunately the kids start idolizing the popular entertainers at a young age

Hmm. I can't help but notice that I'm posting about what people have actually done, and you're posting about media. Not that media's not important ("garbage in, garbage out", as my grandmother used to say), but I think it's a bit much to suggest that rap music somehow should be singled out for creating the environment that a lot of people are trying to improve. There was no rap music in 1966, when the BPP was founded. That wouldn't come around until a few years later, and when it did it was decidedly more peaceful than you describe:


Everybody near and far, I'm going to Paris to stop this war! :)
 
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Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that all racism is truly gone, and that all we have left is whatever leftover byproducts exist from past racism, there's still a very high correlation between wealth and opportunity, wherein wealth provides more opportunity to acquire even more wealth. That alone is enough to mean that, on average, blacks don't have as much opportunity as whites, because blacks were systematically forced into the poverty that robs them of opportunity.

Well of course wealth gives opportunity. That's a no brainer. The richest 1% have way more opportunities than I do. So?

That doesn't mean I don't have opportunities to to succeed. I will never be a millionaire. But I have opportunities not because I'm rich or white or whatever. I was poor. How did I get to be where I am? Cause I was wealthy or my parents were wealthy? No. It was because I searched for opportunity, I went to school, graduated, job hunted and finally obtained a job where I could make a living. My wife was so poor that she was lucky if she could scrounge up a fried baloney sandwich for dinner. My son in law is black and was very poor in the Louisiana. He has a good job now and is working hard making something if himself and caring for his family.

The opportunities are there. The slavery of ancestors do not need to hold one back from success. There is no point in walking around hurt over something that occurred long before you were born and never experienced.
 
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To continue with the theme, I wonder what the White Panther Party was all about, then. They were obviously white people, but had the same sorts of goals as the Black Panthers did. That doesn't seem to fit your narrative. :scratch: Or do you think black people just believe whatever 'the media' tells them, for whatever reason?



This I agree with. It is the devil's work to turn people against each other. That's why I tried to post a good example in the Black/White Panther Parties. That's people working together towards common goals.



Hmm. I can't help but notice that I'm posting about what people have actually done, and you're posting about media. Not that media's not important ("garbage in, garbage out", as my grandmother used to say), but I think it's a bit much to suggest that rap music somehow should be singled out for creating the environment that a lot of people are trying to improve. There was no rap music in 1966, when the BPP was founded. That wouldn't come around until a few years later, and when it did it was decidedly more peaceful than you describe:


Everybody near and far, I'm going to Paris to stop this war! :)
I can say from personal experience the media's influence is very strong in the cities i live near. I see a good amount of racism towards whites in these communities, a hatred for the entire upper class and even hatred between different classes of blacks

Most people today dont even know a White Panther party existed. I keep bringing up media because i think some of the devils strongest tools for manipulating others and keeping them trapped in a mental prison is tv and music. The same TV that portrays the black panthers and black lives matter in a negative way while neglecting to mention that many whites did step up during civil rights and the White Panther Party as well
 
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How is this so hard to understand? White people as a group have lots of economic advantages over minority people because for centuries minorities were prevented via a whole range of legal and social restrictions from achieving the same things as white people. Purely on race. As a result we have a society where white people overwhelmingly have more wealth and where white people dominate positions of authority.

The ENTIRE point of trying to encourage companies to hire more minorities is to correct a balance that was entirely artificial in the first place. Whites had literally centuries of having the game tilted artificially in their favour, yet now people are whining because of some small artificial rebalancing that won't put minorities above whites, but might just create a situation which gives everyone an even playing field.

Seriously? As white people, we're supposed to find that wildly unfair?

So you think we should value race?
 
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I can say from personal experience the media's influence is very strong in the cities i live near. I see a good amount of racism towards whites in these communities, a hatred for the entire upper class and even hatred between different classes of blacks

Okay. Personal anecdotes can't really be falsified, so...alright.

Most people today dont even know a White Panther party existed.

Most people don't know lots of things. That was kind of my point in the post about how slavery wasn't forever ago or whatever.

I keep bringing up media because i think some of the devils strongest tools for manipulating others and keeping them trapped in a mental prison is tv and music. The same TV that portrays the black panthers and black lives matter in a negative way while neglecting to mention that many whites did step up during civil rights and the White Panther Party as well

I guess. I mean...I learned about all that stuff through the media, but I guess it might be one of those things where you have to dig for it now, just because the public has the attention of a gnat, though again I don't know that this is specific to today or to race relations. Hitler is known to have said "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" (source)

The key for those who profit from division (in one way or another) is to get people to forget these things, and if the media can do that, then you may have a point. I tend to think we're lucky these days to be able to tap into the vast wealth of knowledge of things that might otherwise be forgotten, including the progress made in past times that may have seemed then to be just as tense as things are now, if not more so (e.g., the Watts riots and such).
 
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