Always an exception. Even though Calvinist's would be considered 'Orthodox'...wouldn't they???
I did not say they were not - but clearly since they had to re-write the purpose of man (chief end) they do not agree with purpose I stated.
Nor do I. It's not about "foreknowing" though...it's about "predestined/for-ordained/chosen" and the Greek definition of those words is what gives me issue with your position.
Well actually it goes deeper than that and this gross oversimplified - Did He choose because He foreknew the response or did He choose first and that choice drove the response.
And that does NOT correct those who've offended, it merely protects those who have also offended, but ACCEPTED His reconciling forgiveness in this age. My philosophical answer to your philosophical assumption.
We have all offended, which is why we all needed saving. Given the original offense and it's consequence (fallen race) - He had only two options that make sense to me. Start over or give us an out on an individual basis because we cannot make right ourselves what is wrong with our relationship with Him.
He made us flesh and blood. We are made to love, serve and know the Supreme Good as we are (and it WAS Very Good). We cannot do that fully in our present fallen state without His Grace, which He made possible for each of us, by His Act on the Cross for each of us. So He reaches a Hand out to us. We still have freewill. So we can take that Hand and stay in it or not. I believe, as the Church teaches, that if we are not in that Hand when die - then that Hand is no longer extended.
Could there be a back-up plan. I supose we could speculate. But given He did not mention that back-up plan while here and rather repeatedly emphasized the finality of death and our Judgement, while contrasting the eternity of Heaven against the eternity of Hell - am hard pressed to read into what He did say of Hell anything about a second chance.
Consider this, a single man made one offense against God and corrupted not only the entire race but the world too. Seems offending Him is a pretty big deal (which makes logical sense if our view of God is BIG enough - the offense itself is less important than Whom one has offended). It becomes a bit awkward to say then that we believe God offers us Grace, a Hand out of the mess we made/make of ourselves yet we can reject that and still have Him eager to then offer us another out (for the same mess). It would be like needing your fathers blessing after totally insulting him, having him freely offer that blessing and then telling him no thanks double insult) and expect him to offer it again.
That's just a baloney comment to me, no offense intended. If your mind can truly accept that, then we simply are in opposition. I don't believe the masses of humanity ever made such a conscious decision, knowing it was the truth. Me on the other hand I DID make that decision. I said; "God if what this church believes about me represents YOU then I'll go to HELL with the rest of my friends." And for 4 years I made sure I was worthy of those words.
If we suppose (no offense, I do not know you, but just for the sake of the argument) that "this Church" was "His Church" then that decisions illustrates my point. We all put ourselves, our will first and balk at the idea of submitting to an authority over us.
It is like the kid wondering if Baptism/conversion is right for me now or should I wait until I (me, myself, what I WANT) have had a little more "fun" first. It really all comes down that. We know what is right, because He put that in us. Made to love, serve and know Him means we all actually know what we should do, yet we still do not always do it. So when someone says people would never consciously decide to reject God - I have to disagree. We all do it all the time.
Doping/dealing/smuggling/prostituting/gonorrhea (twice)/bar tending/ect. ect. I was a lost sheep and not dumb enough to say today; "I found the shepherd." My testimony simply aligns with my theology...I think.
And I hope we all stay in His Good Graces.
Then it's a poor plan IMO. It leaves the God of Love and the universe, whipped like a red headed step child in the quest for all those whom He loved and died for. I can't buy that. My God view is bigger and His plan is better, I think.
I guess we look at differently. What I cannot buy is with people saying He loved us all so much that He died for each of us because we each offended Him, then some of us can add insult to our offenses by spitting in His Face for bothering making that effort for them and suffer no eternal consequence for doing so. And by that I do not exclude salvation outside the Church.
The fact He had to give His Life as a Man for us indicates the maginitude of our offenses and what He required to make everything ok between Him and me. What would be required for adding the insult of my snubbing His effort to save me?
To be used of the adversary to try and test those of us who truly have 'free will' since being set free by salvation.
From my experience, people (including me) do just fine creating our own tests - there is no need for Him to create opportunity. Besides, God is the Supreme Good and to suggest this is to suggest the Supreme Good would do not Good(evil).
Because He knew where they would end up...eventually. And that certainly isn't in a torture chamber so hideious it could have only sprung from the minds of man and not the God of love and ENDLESS mercy.
When He said "Very Good" it was about the moment - not some future state - and Very Good certainly was not where it stayed after sin entered the world.
Being willing to give His human life to save me is endless mercy - He could do nothing greater for me and it is the only reason I can have mercy at all. I still have cooperate with the endless Mercy of His Act, but my ability to cooperation ends at my death. He clearly said I need to decide NOW, BEFORE I DIE, because after my death comes Justice. No matter which way I go - His Act for savings me is endless Mercy because He gave ALL He had to give.
Ah, so when they die - no matter what evil they did here - they go straight to Heaven. I see. Interesting. So how does the Supreme Good create sentient beings to do not Good (evil).
We were born into rebellion. And it didn't stop upon getting saved....Hmmm, maybe we deserve ETERNAL TORTURE more than those who are merely walking in ignorance???? Seems fair to me.
Ignorant of what - the Cathecism? The Bible. I said nothing of knowledge being a requirement. Put in context, Ignorance is not an excuse because NO ONE is ignorant if we were all made to love, serve and know the Supreme Good.
I've quoted the scripture which says why he spoke in parables.
MAR 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Says what it means and means what it says...according to my theology.
And I stated there are other ways of understanding the same verse. Namely that they are not coverted or forgiven NOT BECAUSE He did not want them to be, but because He knew their hearts would not allow them to be - even if He spoke plainly.
How can you, in good conscience say such a thing after saying God made Hell for all those He knew by His FOREKNOWLEDGE would never believe????
Because He said Himself there are two destinations and compared them both as eternal destinations. And while He certainly suggests Heaven is a "place" beyond our imagination, it is not clear to me that it is necessarily a place in the sense we call say, Gary Indiana is a place. Afterall, where ever "paradise" is, He certainly demonstrated being "there" did not limit Him from also being "here". And the opposite "place" certainly represents exclusion from Heaven and clearly bad for anyone finding themselves there. But all the smoke, fire, worms that never die....etc - am not clear that represents anything more than very unpleasant.
And was it not you who said recently you don't believe God knew what any one would do because he wasn't omniscient because of our 'free will'?
No, at least not intentionally.
My point exactly...my dad's thick German melon doesn't make him a candidate for Eternal Torture...simply because he wouldn't compete with the ministry of Paul.
I offered my guess - I did not claim to know the mind of God or His Will for your father. Saint Paul was free, even blinded to say no. So was Mary for that matter. A better question would be what makes one think everyone would respond the same as Saint Paul did if that happened to all of us.
Were YOU worth saving based upon that standard?
I was not asked to speculate on a standard and my reply, which clearly said no offense to your dad, was a guess on why Jesus might appear to Saint Paul that way. We could just as easily ask why does He not appear to each of us like He did the 12.
But we already know that many whom He did appear to and who saw the things He did and said - still rejected Him. So I think the exericise is flawed as far as attempting to make a point.
A call to a free will that you earlier said we all had to begin with, to make a decision for/against God, and God can't know our free will. 
Do you believe your consistency is weak? It just is for me...no offense.
Again, God's knowledge is Perfect. If I said what you think I said it had to be a typo or was misunderstood.
Many bibles don't have the word eternal in them.
Yeah, but all still have Him comparing the two fates equally. So if one is going to talk of one fate as just being for an "age" then that would also have to apply to the other fate as no Bible has Him qualifying that comparison.
You believe they're translated wrong, I don't. I believe they're translated to protect the 'orthodox' view of an eternal Hell which the church needed to 'control' the minds of all those 'free willed' thinkers way back then.
Don't recall saying anything about wrong translations in this thread. Free thinkers??? You mean like the ones that had God impregnating women?
Shorter post please....my eyes tire. Wish we could all just sit down and talk, it would be easier.
true.
He later became a believer in a better plan by a bigger God than he had believed in before.
