Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
A lot of stuff there.
I ask you. IF there is universal reconciliation or salvation...what happens to Lucifer?
Thank you for your unsupported opinion. The Talmud shows what the Jews believed before and during the time of Jesus. When Jesus knew that the Elders of Israel were wrong He corrected their teaching, "You have heard it said ... but I say to you..." When Jesus taught about "furnace of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,""hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" and "eternal punishment" it supported and affirmed what the Jews beleived about hell. Jesus did not correct the Jews and He never said His teaching on Hell was a figure of speech. My evidence which you ignored is in [post=65656362]Post #13[/post]
Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased (REPHAIM) ....they shall not rise: ....therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and.... made all their memory to perish.
The Rephaim is plural and the product of fallen angels that corrupted flesh before the flood. They were monsters.
Looking now to:
Prov 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding.... shall remain in the congregation of the... dead (REPHAIM).
Prov. 21: 16 clearly teaches that the sinner will end up in destruction like the Rephaim
Pardon me. I don't give a rip snort about what anybody says unless it is backed up with the Holy Writ. If people kept their noses out of the extra-Biblical garbage as a firm guideline of instruction we may get somewhere.
If you so desire you may ignore Isaiah when the CARCASES were there when the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. That will be to YOUR discredit and not mine come judgment. That is the visible hell. Gehenna. The valley of the Son of Hinnom. It is SW of Jerusalem. The area was unclean by the actions of an earlier King and was not fit for anything other than a garbage dump. It was set ablaze to burn the garbage. Any criminal or anyone not deserving burial were thrown in along with dead animals. What the fire did not consume the worms took care of the rest. YUM YUM.
. . . It will take another thread to show about the Babylonian Talmud and the tradition of the elders. That group carries on today. They pervert the Gospel as well.
Yes, I agree. The dead in Sheol walk and talk. No doubt about that. And the trees talk to people in Hell!Isa 14:9-10
(9) Hell [שׁאל/sheol] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead [רפאים/rephaim] for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
These rephaim in sheol are moved, stirred up, raised up and they speak, etc.
Yes, I agree. The dead in Sheol walk and talk. No doubt about that. And the trees talk to people in Hell!
Isaiah 14:8
Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
Why do you always skip over verse 8 when you quote Isaiah 14:9-10?
(Incidentally, why don't the talking trees burn up in the everlasting fire? Are they fireproof like those asbestos worms in Isaiah 66:24?)
I almost want to go to hell, just to see talking trees. I've never seen a talking tree, except in movies. Remember that scene in The Wizard of Oz with the talking apple trees? When I was a kid that was one of the scariest scenes in the movie. That, and when the witch sent the flying monkeys. Are there going to be flying monkeys in hell? That would be awesome.
But I suppose those of us in the real world know how to separate fantasy (and figurative literature) from reality.
Seriously, Isaiah 14 is specifically said to be a taunt against the king of Babylon. See verse 4: "you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon".
When you were a kid, if someone taunted you saying "Up your nose with a rubber hose" did you actually stick a hose up your nose? Taunts are meant to be hyperbolic. "Your momma is so fat that when she sits around the house, she sits AROUND the house" is not meant to be taken literally!
You are a smart guy, read the context. Take the genre into account when you read. Don't just accept the traditional view and then search around for passages that you think might support it.
I have developed a great sadness and horror at the thought of some people going to hell, either eternal or temporary. Even if I get to heaven though faith or whatnot, the thought of my fellow humans going to hell is very depressing. I am no different from them, and I easily could have been in their place... this is horrifying to me. I cannot be at peace and enjoy God while he does not save other people from suffering.
It is hard for me to accept a God who creates people into a world where they are in danger of going to hell. If God is good, why would he let people suffer in hell? Even if we have free will, would any person willfully choose eternal or temporary suffering in hell? I don't think they would if they they were convinced of the existence of hell and the reality of the danger of going there. These are rhetorical questions so far, don't answer them.
When I look at the situation that man is in, with our lack of ability to know absolute reality, all we got is guesses at what reality is. Would God expect us to discover absolute reality and the truth about what one needs to do to be saved? Man has always tried to discover it, yet we never will... certainty is impossible for man in this world.
What I'm looking for here, is some information on books or websites that believe in universal salvation to everyone thought Christ's death and resurrection as the one who took the guilt of mankind and saved everyone from eternal and temporary hell. I'm wondering if anyone out there holds this view and can give arguments for it biblically... websites or organizations etc.
The Jews might say 400 years is/was a pretty good limit. But they might still be wrong, even with that answer, I suppose.So since we are creating limits, how much suffering of the innocent is ok for God to allow before we see Him as merciless?
I have developed a great sadness and horror at the thought of some people going to hell, either eternal or temporary. Even if I get to heaven though faith or whatnot, the thought of my fellow humans going to hell is very depressing. I am no different from them, and I easily could have been in their place... this is horrifying to me. I cannot be at peace and enjoy God while he does not save other people from suffering.
It is hard for me to accept a God who creates people into a world where they are in danger of going to hell. If God is good, why would he let people suffer in hell? Even if we have free will, would any person willfully choose eternal or temporary suffering in hell? I don't think they would if they they were convinced of the existence of hell and the reality of the danger of going there. These are rhetorical questions so far, don't answer them.
When I look at the situation that man is in, with our lack of ability to know absolute reality, all we got is guesses at what reality is. Would God expect us to discover absolute reality and the truth about what one needs to do to be saved? Man has always tried to discover it, yet we never will... certainty is impossible for man in this world.
What I'm looking for here, is some information on books or websites that believe in universal salvation to everyone thought Christ's death and resurrection as the one who took the guilt of mankind and saved everyone from eternal and temporary hell. I'm wondering if anyone out there holds this view and can give arguments for it biblically... websites or organizations etc.
I have given this a lot of thought over the years, and I often ask clergymen questions such as:
1. What happened to the people that died before Jesus?
2. What happens to remote jungle people that die and never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus?
3. What happens if someone like Hitler, during the resurrection and judgment per Revelation 20, has reformed and is forgiven, thus getting passage to the new earth (paradise)?
Their answers are always best guess, because they truly don't have a clue.
I have come to my own conclusions:
1. Hell (Gehenna - lake of fire) is not a fiery place of torment for anyone/anything other than the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Go read Revelation 20. No where does it say humans are sent to hell for an eternal fiery punishment.
2. Satan and the devil are not the same thing. Satan is simply a Hebrew term that means "adversary" in English. In the Hebrew it is always "ha-satan" or "the adversary," and it is a title, not a name. I always wondered why an all powerful God, the great creator, had to have this arch enemy that He could not do anything with. Then I opened my eyes and realized Christians need to purge mythology from their beliefs, and start accepting responsibility for their actions instead of blaming some mythical bad guy.
3. All will be given the chance to accept Jesus as their savior during the resurrections and judgment. That solves the problem of #1 and #2 from the set of questions above. God is a loving God and does not want to see His creations destroyed.
As to the John 3:16 comment above, that verse does not state WHEN someone has to believe in Jesus, only that they have to in order to receive eternal life on new earth (paradise). And if you want to talk semantics, that verse only states that a belief in Jesus is necessary...I can be a Agnostic and believe He exists, but hate Him with a passion; however, per the way that verse is worded, I am covered.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Do you have any scriptural support for Hitler, or anyone else, having an opportunity to reform after death? See Heb 9:27.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:I don't see any opportunity for anyone to be reformed between "die" and "judgment."
I doubt this very much.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,That the torment is unending is emphasized by the phrase "they have no rest day nor night" 10[sup]100[/sup] times 10[sup]100[/sup] eons from now God's unchanging word will still say "he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,"
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Who was Jesus conversing with in this passage? Does Jesus need "to purge mythology from [his] beliefs?"
Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Scripture which supports the highlighted statement? See Heb 9:27.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
John 3;16 is not the only relevant scripture.
Yes, yes...your usual long winded posts which no one really reads through anymore. As to who was Jesus conversing with, that would be "The Adversary" or "The Accuser," who was doing his appointed job.
I would not think the suffering of an infant to be very funny. The question was a serious one relating to the view claiming that if God allowed endless suffering for those He judged deserved it that He would be without mercy.The Jews might say 400 years is/was a pretty good limit. But they might still be wrong, even with that answer, I suppose.
And I totally agree. And I'll go you one better; suffering of anyone is not funny...whether it be infant/parent/sinner/saint...not even a murderer. But that's just a personal opinion.I would not think the suffering of an infant to be very funny.
As was my answer.The question was a serious one...
Grammatically I don't really know what you're saying here, and find it difficult to respond.....relating to the view claiming that if God allowed endless suffering for those He judged deserved it that He would be without mercy.
Personally I consider it wrong ever "say God is merciless". And those who do say that, are the ones who believe in 'never ending''everlasting'/eternal purposeless torture. To me, that would be a merciless God. But I don't believe that way, so I don't believe He is merciless.So the infant that is suffering through not fault of it's own, at what point do we say God is merciless for allowing that to continue?
Or do we say God only show mercy on the damned?
I have given this a lot of thought over the years, and I often ask clergymen questions such as:
1. What happened to the people that died before Jesus?
2. What happens to remote jungle people that die and never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus?
So God would be merciless if He allowed endless suffering of the damned, but He is not merciless to allow the suffering of the innocent.And I totally agree. And I'll go you one better; suffering of anyone is not funny...whether it be infant/parent/sinner/saint...not even a murderer. But that's just a personal opinion.
As was my answer.
Grammatically I don't really know what you're saying here, and find it difficult to respond.
Personally I consider it wrong ever "say God is merciless". And those who do say that, are the ones who believe in 'never ending''everlasting'/eternal purposeless torture. To me, that would be a merciless God. But I don't believe that way, so I don't believe He is merciless.
My answer is very much a yes; endless 'torture' of those whom He 'damned to begin with' and then had never "drawn/called/predestined/fore-ordained/elected" would be merciless. That's His 'doing'...both damning and saving.So God would be merciless if He allowed endless suffering of the damned,
But allowing the suffering of the innocent might not be God's 'doing'...though it would be His 'allowing'. Eternal purposeless torture 'would be' His doing IMO.but He is not merciless to allow the suffering of the innocent.
Maybe you also need to define your "innocent" ones and give me an example of their "suffering". I might not be on the same page you are.So is the contention that there can be any length of time (short of eternal) for the innocent to suffer and God is not a monster for allowing it????????
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?