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thinking of converting

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Ken

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distancerunner, as far as sola Scriptura not being found before Luther, I greatly encourage you to read The Shape of Sola Scriptura by Keith Mathison.... you will find that your initial impression (ie that sola Scriptura dates from the Reformation) to be thoroughly addressed....


blessings
 
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Ken

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Shelb5, I do not see much use in continuing to discuss whom you are referring to as the progenitors of the myths and lies about your faith, apparently you are not thinking of Protestants when you say this... so I am glad to know that you deny that Protestants declare your faith to be full of myths and lies... thanks for clearing that up for me, I appreciate it... and I will leave it as that.....



Secondly, you say "This is the only point I was making to the author, that if you want to learn Catholicism, then study it with out bias and let the teachings with no bias or spin put on them, stand for themselves."



Well obviously this is a false claim, for if one goes to Catholics to learn about Catholics, then certainly the Catholic is biased towards their belief that their faith is the truest expression of the Christian faith. If you deny this, namely that a Catholic can be objective in an absolute sense, then it is manifestly possible that one speaking from a Protestant perspective can likewise be unbiased as well....

At any rate, perfect neutrality is not humanly possible; one will always have biases of one sort or another....

blessings
 
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Rising_Suns

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distancerunner, as far as sola Scriptura not being found before Luther, I greatly encourage you to read The Shape of Sola Scriptura by Keith Mathison.... you will find that your initial impression (ie that sola Scriptura dates from the Reformation) to be thoroughly addressed....


Just for a little encouragement, also take note that the bible (by which we have the Catholic church to thank for its existence) was not put together till hundreds of years after Christ's death, so what did the people have until the Catholic church put together the bible? They had the apostolic tradition, which was handed down through action and word of mouth. Also take note what the bible says about sola scriptura, nothing:

DISCLAIMER: This is a cut and past from the site below. I am posting it here to make a general point, but if you find a detail in which you disagree about, take that up with the source. I am not concerned with a small detail, but rather an overall picture of what is going on.


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html

Scripture Alone Disproves "Scripture Alone"
"Scripture never says that Scripture is the sole and exclusive authority for God's Word. Scripture also mandates tradition. This fact alone disproves sola scriptura.
Matt. 28:20 - "observe ALL I have commanded," but, as we see in John 20:30; 21:25, not ALL Jesus taught is in Scripture. So there must be things outside of Scripture that we must observe. This disproves "Bible alone" theology.

Mark 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to "preach," not write, and only three apostles wrote. The others who did not write were not less faithful to Jesus, because Jesus gave them no directive to write. There is no evidence in the Bible or elsewhere that Jesus intended the Bible to be sole authority of the Christian faith.

Luke 1:1-4 - Luke acknowledges that the faithful have already received the teachings of Christ, and is writing his Gospel only so that they "realize the certainty of the teachings you have received." Luke writes to verify the oral tradition they already received.

John 20:30; 21:25 - Jesus did many other things not written in the Scriptures. These have been preserved through oral apostolic tradition and they are equally a part of the Deposit of Faith.

Acts 8:30-31; Heb. 5:12 - these verses show that we need help in interpreting the Scriptures. We cannot interpret them infallibly on our own. We need divinely appointed leadership within the Church to teach us.

1 Cor. 11:2 - Paul commends the faithful to obey apostolic tradition, and not Scripture alone.

Phil. 4:9 - Paul says that what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do. There is nothing ever about obeying Scripture alone.

Col. 4:16 - this verse shows that a prior letter written to Laodicea is equally authoritative but not part of the New Testament canon. Paul once again appeals to a source outside of the Bible to teach about the Word of God.

2 Thess. 2:14 - Paul says that God has called us "through our Gospel." What is the fullness of the Gospel?

2 Thess. 2:15 - the fullness of the Gospel is the apostolic tradition which includes either teaching by word of mouth or by letter. Scripture does not say "letter alone." The Catholic Church has the fullness of the Christian faith through its rich traditions of Scripture, oral tradition and teaching authority (or Magisterium).

2 Thess 3:6 - Paul instructs us to obey apostolic tradition. There is no instruction in the Scriptures about obeying the Bible alone (the word "Bible" is not even in the Bible).

1 Tim. 3:14-15 - Paul prefers to speak and not write, and is writing only in the event that he is delayed and cannot be with Timothy.

2 Tim. 2:2 - Paul says apostolic tradition is passed on to future generations, but he says nothing about all apostolic traditions being eventually committed to the Bible.

2 Tim. 3:14 - continue in what you have learned and believed knowing from whom you learned it. Again, this refers to tradition which is found outside of the Bible.

James 4:5 - James also appeals to Scripture outside of the Old Testament canon ("He yearns jealously over the spirit which He has made...")

2 Peter 1:20 - interpreting Scripture is not a matter of one's own private interpretation. Therefore, it must be a matter of "public" interpretation of the Church. The Divine Word needs a Divine Interpreter. Private judgment leads to divisions, and this is why there are thousands of different Protestant denominations.

2 Peter 3:15-16 - Peter says Paul's letters are inspired, but not all his letters are in the New Testament canon. See, for example, 1 Cor. 5:9-10; Col. 4:16. Also, Peter's use of the word "ignorant" means unschooled, which presupposes the requirement of oral apostolic instruction that comes from the Church.

2 Peter 3:16 - the Scriptures are difficult to understand and can be distorted by the ignorant to their destruction. God did not guarantee the Holy Spirit would lead each of us to infallibly interpret the Scriptures. But this is what Protestants must argue in order to support their doctrine of sola scriptura. History and countless divisions in Protestantism disprove it.

1 John 4:1 - again, God instructs us to test all things, test all spirits. Notwithstanding what many Protestants argue, God's Word is not always obvious.

1 Sam. 3:1-9 - for example, the Lord speaks to Samuel, but Samuel doesn't recognize it is God. The Word of God is not self-attesting.

1 Kings 13:1-32 - in this story, we see that a man can't discern between God's word (the commandment "don't eat") and a prophet's erroneous word (that God had rescinded his commandment "don't eat"). The words of the Bible, in spite of what many Protestants must argue, are not always clear and understandable. This is why there are 30,000 different Protestant churches and one Holy Catholic Church.

Gen. to Rev. - Protestants must admit that knowing what books belong in the Bible is necessary for our salvation. However, because the Bible has no "inspired contents page," you must look outside the Bible to see how its books were selected. This destroys the sola scriptura theory. The canon of Scripture is a Revelation from God which is necessary for our salvation, and which comes from outside the Bible. Instead, this Revelation was given to the Catholic Church, the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
 
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Rising_Suns

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and just a little more encouragement for our brother who started this thread..... :)


"All Scripture is Inspired"- 2 Tim. 3:16-17
2 Tim. 3:14 - Protestants usually use 2 Tim. 3:16-17 to prove that the Bible is the sole authority of God's word. But examining these texts disproves their claim. Here, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition right before the Protestants' often quoted verse 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Thus, there is an appeal to tradition before there is an appeal to the Scriptures, and Protestants generally ignnore this fact.

2 Tim. 3:15 - Paul then appeals to the sacred writings of Scripture referring to the Old Testament Scriptures with which Timothy was raised (not the New Testament which was not even compiled at the time of Paul's teaching). This verse also proves that one can come to faith in Jesus Christ without the New Testament.

2 Tim. 3:16 - this verse says that Scripture is "profitable" for every good work, but not exclusive. The word "profitable" is "ophelimos" in Greek. "Ophelimos" only means useful, which underscores that Scripture is not mandatory or exclusive. Protestants unbiblically argue that profitable means exclusive.

2 Tim. 3:16 - further, the verse "all Scripture" uses the words "pasa graphe" which actually means every (not all) Scripture. This means every passage of Scripture is useful. Thus, the erroneous Protestant reading of "pasa graphe" would mean every single passage of Scripture is exclusive. This would mean Christians could not only use "sola Matthew," or "sola Mark," but could rely on one single verse from a Gospel as the exclusive authority of God's word. This, of course, is not true. Also, "pasa graphe" cannot mean "all of Scripture" because there was no New Testament canon to which Paul could have been referring, unless Protestants argue that the New Testament is not being included by Paul.

2 Tim. 3:16 - also, these inspired Old Testament Scriptures Paul is referring to included the deuterocanonical books which the Protestants removed from the Bible 1,500 years later.

2 Tim. 3:17 - Paul's reference to the "man of God" who may be complete refers to a clergyman, not a layman. It is an instruction to a bishop of the Church. So, although Protestants use it to prove their case, the passage is not even relevant to most of the faithful.

2 Tim. 3:17 - further, Paul's use of the word "complete" for every good work is "artios" which simply means the clergy is "suitable" or "fit." Also, artios does not describe the Scriptures, it describes the clergyman. So, Protestants cannot use this verse to argue the Scriptures are complete.

James 1:4 - steadfastness also makes a man "perfect (teleioi) and complete (holoklepoi), lacking nothing." This verse is important because "teleioi"and "holoklepoi" are much stronger words than "artios," but Protestants do not argue that steadfastness is all one needs to be a Christian.

Titus 3:8 - good deeds are also "profitable" to men. For Protestants especially, profitable cannot mean "exclusive" here.

2 Tim 2:21- purity is also profitable for "any good work" ("pan ergon agathon"). This wording is the same as 2 Tim. 3:17, which shows that the Scriptures are not exclusive, and that other things (good deeds and purity) are also profitable to men.

Col. 4:12 - prayer also makes men "fully assured." No where does Scripture say the Christian faith is based solely on a book.

2 Tim. 3:16-17 - Finally, if these verses really mean that Paul was teaching sola scriptura, then why in 1 Thess. 2:13 does Paul teach that he is giving Revelation from God orally? Either Paul is contradicting his own teaching on sola scriptura, or Paul was not teaching sola scriptura in 2 Tim. 3:16-17.
 
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Terri

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Rising_Suns said:
[/size][/font]

Just for a little encouragement, also take note that the bible (by which we have the Catholic church to thank for its existence) was not put together till hundreds of years after Christ's death, so what did the people have until the Catholic church put together the bible?

Since the books of the Bible where written by the apostles and distributed to the churches at that time they certainly existed from the time they were written until now.

At the most, the catholics were bookbinders! ;)
 
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Rising_Suns

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Since the books of the Bible where written by the apostles and distributed to the churches at that time they certainly existed from the time they were written until now.



Yes, but again, the books were not written till many years after Christs death.

At the most, the catholics were bookbinders!
Nice try. :) It was the Catholic church that decided what books to include and exclude in the bible, making them much more than just book binders. Next time you open your bible to the New Testament, remember that is was the Catholic church that decided that those books would be included in the bible, and not others.

 
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KennySe

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Terri said:
I've never seen people before that get so excited about being bookbinders. :D

Those Catholics, who under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, set the Canon of the collection of books, now called "The Bible", should be thanked for their part in separating false books from the Inspired Word of God... instead of mocked.
 
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Ken

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In agreement with Terri, I would like to add
Rising Suns, you said “Just for a little encouragement, also take note that the bible (by which we have the Catholic church to thank for its existence)”

Wrong, we have God to thank for the Bible’s existence. All the church did was recognize what was authoritatively written by those who wrote what we call the New Testament. To thank Rome is an example of the exaggerated sense of importance that Rome has concerning itself….

The Formation Of The Canon Of The New Testament, by B. B. Warfield
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In order to obtain a correct understanding of what is called the formation of the Canon of the New Testament, it is necessary to begin by fixing very firmly in our minds one fact which is obvious enough when attention is once called to it. That is, that the Christian church did not require to form for itself the idea of a "canon," — or, as we should more commonly call it, of a "Bible," — that is, of a collection of books given of God to be the authoritative rule of faith and practice. It inherited this idea from the Jewish church, along with the thing itself, the Jewish Scriptures, or the "Canon of the Old Testament." The church did not grow up by natural law: it was founded. And the authoritative teachers sent forth by Christ to found His church, carried with them, as their most precious possession, a body of Divine Scriptures, which they imposed on the church that they founded as its code of law. No reader of the New Testament can need proof of this; on every page of that book is spread the evidence that from the very beginning the Old Testament was as cordially recognized as law by the Christian as by the Jew. The Christian church thus was never without a "Bible" or a "canon.""[/font]

Note the words of Augustine:
What more shall I teach you than what we read in the apostle? For Holy Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare to be wiser than we ought. Therefore I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the Teacher. (De bono viduitatis, 2)

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Note well the words of Augustine: he says that the Scriptures fix "the rule for our doctrine." The Latin of the passage reads, "Scriptura nostræ doctrinæ regulam figit." Protestants say the Scriptures are the sole infallible regula fidei, the rule of faith. It seems Augustine believed the same.[/font]
 
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Acceptance

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I would agree with this statement Ken:
we have God to thank for the Bible’s existence


We have God to thank for everything we have, and hope to one day have. I think what people mean when they talk about the Catholic church 'making' the bible is that it was Catholic's whom the Holy Spirit was working through when the Bible was officially compiled.

Whether we like it or not, the Bible was not handed to us as the 10 commandments were. The bible was not directly written by the finger of God, but no question God was working in the people who wrote the scriptures, just as He was working in those who finalized the book. Those people happened to be Catholic.
 
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Terri

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Acceptance said:
I would agree with this statement Ken:

we have God to thank for the Bible’s existence


So why not thank God and leave it at that. Why must you try to falsely glorify yourselves rather than give the glory to the One to whom it actually belongs.
 
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So why not thank God and leave it at that.


If you believe (as most protestants do) that if one follow Christ they are saved, why argue theology with Catholics. Why not accept that they follow Christ and leave it at that?

Why must you try to falsely glorify yourselves rather than give the glory to the One to whom it actually belongs.


I wasn't aware that stating factual things such as: Catholics compiled the bible, was "glorifying" ourselves. If a Lutheran says 'Martin Luther started Protestantism', does that mean they "glorigy" Martin Luther? No, it's just them stating a fact about the history of their religion.
 
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Terri

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Acceptance said:
why argue theology with Catholics.

:D

I wouldn't argue theology with catholics if they would just show a little respect and stop coming into the protestant area to tell me my faith is wrong. ;)


I wasn't aware that stating factual things such as: Catholics compiled the bible, was "glorifying" ourselves. If a Lutheran says 'Martin Luther started Protestantism', does that mean they "glorigy" Martin Luther? No, it's just them stating a fact about the history of their religion.

Go ahead continue to glorify yourselves--it makes quite a statement.

If someone states Martin Luther started Protestantism they would be wrong--It is God Himself that brought us out.

God will not share His glory even with Martin Luther!! ;)

To God goes all of the glory!!!
:clap: :clap:
 
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Benedicta00

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Terri said:
Go ahead continue to glorify yourselves--it makes quite a statement.

If someone states Martin Luther started Protestantism they would be wrong--It is God Himself that brought us out.

God will not share His glory even with Martin Luther!! ;)

To God goes all of the glory!!!
:clap: :clap:

Terri,

I believe you misunderstood acccptance words, he agrees with you.
 
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geocajun

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Lets not forget that those of you who consider your bible inspired are still trusting in the authority of the Church that told them it was - that is the Catholic Church.
Make no mistake, if you do not think God works through the Catholic Church, you have no business trusting your bible.
"Book binders" are objects, not people.
The men who assembled the sacred scriptures into the bible were acting under the apostolic authority they inherited from the Apostles in an unbroken succession, and continue to excersize that authority (Magesterium) today in the Church.
 
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