"Think of the Children!"

[BananaSlug]

"Think of the children" or something to that line is often used to try and make certain things illegal or morally wrong. We should keep marijuana illegal "because of the children." Don't let them read morally questionable books about (homo)sexuality. Don't let them play without a helmet/shoulderpads/kneepads/elbowpads/wristprotecters/etc. Don't let them experience failure. Does anybody else think we are raising a generation of whining pansies?

Children are a lot tougher than we think and no where near as innocent as we want them to be. I remember some of the things I have done since I was little (touch,etc). I was never sexually abused, I just had high sexuality. Is it bad to teach children to be ashamed of the natural anatomy of the human body?

Failure and making mistakes are a part of life. If children are not allowed to experience failure at a young age and learn to cope with it, when they get older they may not be able to cope with failure. Let there be a winner and a loser in a peewee game. Let all the children play to experience the sport but also let there be a loser! Teach them that loss is a much better learning experience than winning because losing/failure lets you know what not to do next time!

I'll stop with my thoughts until I see some more...

 

[GeorgeWW]

Hi, BananaSlug!

I think we hide behind "think of the children" all the time.
We use it as a reason for doing something instead of logically and rationally considering both sides of an argument and doing the right thing.
I also think we forget that every problem we solve creates one or more new problems.

So if we are attempting to build up some one's self-esteem by telling them how great they are for no reason, then we should be on the look out for the new problems that solution is creating.

Same for $700 billion bailouts. Solve some problems. Create a bunch more.

Too much short term thinking IMHO.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Ya know, the ONLY time I've ever seen that reasoning even talked about is here at CF.

All conversations that I've had with people have had nothing to do with children, except for maybe one conversation I had with an anti-abortion protester who was holding a sign with a huge bloody fetus on it that prompted my then-10 year old son to vomit up his $14.99 dinner from Texas Roadhouse.

This new idea that all children must be treated equally appalls me. When I was in school, we got ribbons for first, second and third and that was it. No participation ribbons. We kept score when we played sports. We played tag and the kids that got "it" didn't complain. I got called Chia Pet and Bushwacker and Shrub in school (last name issues) but I didn't develop any complexes from it. Some of the kids who "bullied" me in school are now my best friends. If I got an F, I got an F. I didn't get a passing grade just because the school wanted to get money for my butt being in the seat.

We're watching the actual dumbing down of America in an effort to raise kids' self-esteem. We're raising the wimps of the future. Well, not "we" we, but y'all know what I mean. My kid gets in trouble, he gets spanked, he gets grounded, he doesn't talk back and he knows that I am NOT his friend. I am, however, his advocate when I need to be.

It's hard to balance that, to be honest. And I know a number of parents who do it quite well, but are thwarted by their kids' schools' actions.

 

[BananaSlug]

I HATE when parents want to blame every bad thing their child does on everything except themselves.
"Grand Theft Auto is way too violent for my son to play." Why did you buy it for him? Most of the M rated games you have to verify that you are 18 before you buy it. Is it really any more violent that what he sees on the news or in the movies? What ever happened to parental responsibility?

 

[cantata]

he knows that I am NOT his friend.

 

[geekgirlkelli]

Well, as I've said before on these very forums, I have raised my kids not to be sheltered from much of anything. By that I mean real life stuff. I DON'T let them visit whatever website they want and I DON'T let them watch whatever movie they want and I DON'T let them watch whatever video they want.

But as far as real life stuff, I'm there. I don't understand parents who have a hard time talking to their kids about sex, drugs and such. When my kids ask questions, I answer them honestly at a level I feel they can understand.

My kids were 8, 6 and 4 when Mom came out as a lesbian. They were 9, 7 and 5 when "Dad" transitioned and became Ma. Guess what? They do excellent in school, they have more friends than ever, and they come home often with notes telling us how respectful they are to other kids and teachers.

When kids do try to bully them, I don't tell them "Oh, it's OK honey, just ignore them." I arm them with psychological facts -- like the fact that most kids who bully are insecure and have problems with home. And I arm them with creative things to come back with that will shut the bullies up and cause them to respect my kids instead of making them more of a target. And I teach them to let authorities know if they are being harassed, but that if they feel they are being pushed too far and threatened with violence, to beat the holy living hell out of whoever is endangering them if there is no other safe way out. You'd never guess that my little softspoken 9 year old redhead with natural curls would be able to pack a punch that could put an adult male down on the floor, but she can. She would never do so unless needed, which probably makes her all the more dangerous to people who are up to no good.

I teach them to do their best, but I try not to push them to be perfect because that can be discouraging. When they screw up, my first question is "Did you learn something?" and rarely do they make the same mistake twice. I teach them that they are OK as long as they are not hurting anyone. Disobeying a rule or something a parent has instructed is hurting that parent as well as themselves. This works SO well. So easy to implement. One rule to remember and it's easy to apply to anything.

Most of all, I teach them to be respectful. I think both of us parents used to be very judgmental of people and the last few years we shifted from that to realizing and teaching that people are different and we need to respect their differences, as long as they are not hurting anyone.

And lastly, I love them like crazy. every day they are told they are loved, they are hugged, they are encouraged... That's a kid requirement.

Not sure if I really answered the OP, but that, for the most part, is my formula for parenting (these days).

 

[lawtonfogle]

Think of the kids is used in heavy topics for a very simple reason, though sometimes it can get complicated. That reason is that most people are won not on logos, but on pathos. Concerning ethos, while you can't seem to win with it, attacking someone else's can keep them from winning. In every day life, few rarely get as in depth as here, but when you do, you will here of the 'think of the children'.

 

[selfinflikted]

Often, people do not give children the credit they deserve. They are a lot stronger than most are willing to admit.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

"Think of the children" or something to that line is often used to try and make certain things illegal or morally wrong.

It's more like allowing children be to children when they are supposed to be. A nine-year old shouldn't have to endure some older person's perspectives. Let kids be kids. If you are not trying to protect your children and other people's children, you're a monster. There's just no other word that will do.

Are you from the university of the Banana Slugs? You may find many of the culprits of the dumbing and wimping down of American youth right where you're getting your learnin'. And of course a very darkening of American youth culture as well. But, if you're not from Santa Cruz, where the Rainbow flag of gayness literally flies over the populace of all ages, I apologize.

We should keep marijuana illegal "because of the children."

And that's a bad thing? Keeping miscreants and reprobates from influencing children is a very noble quest. Dope smokers usually come eith a whole bag of debachery tricks for kids.

Don't let them read morally questionable books about (homo)sexuality.

STD stands for sexually transmitted disease. It's not an oil additive. That would be STP. ST "D" is a epidimec in our children. Provin the monster designation for older people "educating children" on sexuality (homo) are well defined and deserve the monster status. 1 in 4 girls now have an STD. And it's NOT from a lack of sexuality being peddled to them.

Don't let them play without a helmet/shoulderpads/kneepads/elbowpads/wristprotecters/etc.

Parent of the Year stuff there. And of course many children survive childhood by implementation of the above by their good family members. Their called a mother and a father in the best mode. That "bad influences" tell them not to wear such things. Liberalism implemented on the street corner and skate parks.

Don't let them experience failure.

Welcome to humanism's liberal influence since its rise to influence in our education system. Don't blame any conservtive for it. Losing is fought by those that hate its taste. Winners thrive from losses.

Does anybody else think we are raising a generation of whining pansies?

Does that include effeminate pansies? People marching in anti war parades in countries that defend liberty and fight for justice? You never see San Francisco-ites protesting in Mecca. Pacisist really means apathist it seems.

How about women acting more like men than women? When the world is turned upside down, people fall.

Children are a lot tougher than we think and no where near as innocent as we want them to be.

But they are not sex toys either. They don't even understand the concept. But adults do.

I remember some of the things I have done since I was little (touch,etc). I was never sexually abused, I just had high sexuality.

A rather comon trait.

Is it bad to teach children to be ashamed of the natural anatomy of the human body?

If you teach children the anatomical appropriateness of sexuality, you are accused of being a homophobe and prude these days by a segment of society that want to teach childrren every aspect of sexuality in pre-school when they are barely not babies any more.

Failure and making mistakes are a part of life.

Should that include debauchery? Does that include being debauched as a child by someone older and more horny?

If children are not allowed to experience failure at a young age and learn to cope with it, when they get older they may not be able to cope with failure.

You have to establish correct morality and decent behavior before you can introduce darker concepts. That starts with anatomically correct sexuality in the case of this thread.

Let there be a winner and a loser in a peewee game. Let all the children play to experience the sport but also let there be a loser! Teach them that loss is a much better learning experience than winning because losing/failure lets you know what not to do next time!

You need to place blame for the wimpification of our society squarely on the shoulders and moral thinking of lefftist/liberal/progressive ideologues. Even dodgeball is seen as horrible to this social perspective.

I'll stop with my thoughts until I see some more...

This thread will either be very short or very long. Most people do not want to take a stand for children's morality anymore.

 

[.Sabre.]

Kelli:
Excellent post. Have some reps.

I agree with most of the posters here--children are tougher than we think. The "think of the children" line is something I've heard many times, and honestly, children are exposed to the harsh realities of life in many different ways no matter what.

 

[Chesterton]

Teach them that loss is a much better learning experience than winning because losing/failure lets you know what not to do next time!

Teach that to the financial industry and the automakers.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

You obviously haven't been exposed to the new age culture idea that we're supposed to be our kids' buddies, have you?

But let me clarify, lest you think I'm some awful cold parent. I love my children. I would gladly give my life for them. They get hugs (when my 13 year old permits it, anyway!) and they get kisses for their boo-boos. They get meals and snacks and they are told they are loved every minute of every day. My life revolves around my children - just look at the album in my profile. But I'm not their best friend, I'm not their buddy. I'm their parent and I'm to be given the respect that entails. My son doesn't talk to me the way he talks to his friends.

There's two sides of the coin to parenting - and you have to be able to balance it without overdoing one side or the other.

 

[rambot]

I don't know if I can say that "children are tougher than we think". I think children are exactly as tough as I think they are.
There ARE things that kids can+should be able to handle with decent parenting but there are also experiences that children need not have at too young an age.

The problem is that there are terrible, terrible parents out there who do not give their children the proper coping skills to deal properly with certain functions. When someone says "think about the children" it's the children of those parents that they are referring to. And I don't want to imply (nor do I think it's correct) that these bad parents are saying "think about the children" but that they are reminding us to remember that there are a lot of children who are victims of their circumstance and need whatever help society can give them.


Also, it's not really fair to say that "well, I got teased and I came out alright". Very rarely are bullying experiences are identical; and when taken in the larger context of children's lives, it gets downright complicated. Being teased when you are raised in a loving caring and close knit family is easier to deal with. But try having distant parents who don't care what you're doing, so long as police don't show up. Who can you talk to and how can you deal with it?

Kelli is obviously a great parent, but as a teacher (and a friend to a social/psychological counsellor at a nearby high school), it behooves me to mention that there are many children who DO need protection (or at the VERY least, good information) because of negligent parents.

So think of those lonely loveless kids and how you can help them.

 

[cantata]

You obviously haven't been exposed to the new age culture idea that we're supposed to be our kids' buddies, have you?

But let me clarify, lest you think I'm some awful cold parent. I love my children. I would gladly give my life for them. They get hugs (when my 13 year old permits it, anyway!) and they get kisses for their boo-boos. They get meals and snacks and they are told they are loved every minute of every day. My life revolves around my children - just look at the album in my profile. But I'm not their best friend, I'm not their buddy. I'm their parent and I'm to be given the respect that entails. My son doesn't talk to me the way he talks to his friends.

There's two sides of the coin to parenting - and you have to be able to balance it without overdoing one side or the other.

Personally I think that a child should be raised to respect everyone - parents and peers. I am friends with my parents. We do and have always done friend-things together. They have always spoken to me as an equal, explaining to me when necessary the reasons behind the rules they have made. It has always made me feel that their authority derives from the fact that they have more life experience and knowledge than I do, and of course, that they are good people; not from the mere fact that they are my parents.

If that's "new age culture" then I'm terribly sorry. But I would add that I have never had a major argument with my parents, and even our minor disagreements are few and far between.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Personally I think that a child should be raised to respect everyone - parents and peers. I am friends with my parents. We do and have always done friend-things together. They have always spoken to me as an equal, explaining to me when necessary the reasons behind the rules they have made. It has always made me feel that their authority derives from the fact that they have more life experience and knowledge than I do, and of course, that they are good people; not from the mere fact that they are my parents.

That doesn't happen because you're friends with them, that happens because there is a mutual respect. In the end, you may do these things with your parents (I'm assuming stuff like going to movies and things like that) but when you got in trouble, your parents didn't laugh it off or ignore it.

Your relationship sounds much like my relationship with my folks as well as my children. But there is a difference between being someone's friend and someone's parent.

If that's "new age culture" then I'm terribly sorry. But I would add that I have never had a major argument with my parents, and even our minor disagreements are few and far between.

And that is good...but it's not because you and your parents are "friends".

I also believe that as we grow up, it becomes harder for us to gauge what our actual relationship with our parents was when we were younger. For instance, I definitely consider my mom my best friend, but I'm 35 and a parent myself. I'm an adult. But when I was 13, I love my mom and we did a lot of mom/daughter things together, but when push came to shove SHE was the boss, not me.

Relationships such as the one you talk about and that I experienced are based on love between the family, not a friendship.

My aunt and my cousin are a good example of what not to do as parents/children. My cousin never got in trouble, never got punished for anything she did that was wrong. I remember staying at their house for a week while my cousin was attending summer school and the teacher made her stay after for being disruptive. My aunt proceeded to sit down with my cousin and totally bash the guy and talk about what a horrible teacher he was and how he probably didn't get laid enough. Please...that's the kind of talk I'd expect my cousin to have with one of her friends, or even me, not her MOM. My aunt would take my cousin to go look for her boyfriend at all hours of the night and my aunt let my cousin drink at home on a regular basis because "sooner or later she's gonna do it...might as well have her do it here".

So my cousin got waaaaaay off track in her life for awhile. She coudn't hold down a job, she got kicked out art school. Her boyfriends were a string of trashy no-good losers. I don't know what got her back on track, cuz it was not my aunt. Perhaps my uncle finally stepped in. But now that my cousin is a parent, she has said that she will not make the same mistakes.

I hope that clarifies the difference between being a "friend" and being a parent more. It's not to say that parents can't have a loving, fun social relationship with their children. It's just hard to balance that with being the boss, too.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Personally I think that a child should be raised to respect everyone - parents and peers. I am friends with my parents. We do and have always done friend-things together. They have always spoken to me as an equal, explaining to me when necessary the reasons behind the rules they have made. It has always made me feel that their authority derives from the fact that they have more life experience and knowledge than I do, and of course, that they are good people; not from the mere fact that they are my parents.

If that's "new age culture" then I'm terribly sorry. But I would add that I have never had a major argument with my parents, and even our minor disagreements are few and far between.

And you arrived at Queer non-theist, with added jam?

Can you imagine how that effects people that think parent-friends are little of either and that new age ideology is not a very good thing?

Nature or nurture as cause and effect?

I'm interested in your answer of what you think made you what you are, compared to what a person with my conservative views would think.

Which obviously here, I don't need to iluminate too much.

The Bible claims that raising and teaching a child respect for God and they will not depart from it. I think it's safe to say that that life wouldn't include non-belief, unfettered promiscuity or same-gender sexual interactions.

 

[b&wpac4]

And you arrived at Queer non-theist, with added jam?

Can you imagine how that effects people that think parent-friends are little of either and that new age ideology is not a very good thing?

Nature or nurture as cause and effect?

I'm interested in your answer of what you think made you what you are, compared to what a person with my conservative views would think.

Which obviously here, I don't need to iluminate too much.

The Bible claims that raising and teaching a child respect for God and they will not depart from it. I think it's safe to say that that life wouldn't include non-belief, unfettered promiscuity or same-gender sexual interactions.

So sayeth the lock-stepish godian.

 

[cantata]

And you arrived at Queer non-theist, with added jam?

I did.

Can you imagine how that effects people that think parent-friends are little of either and that new age ideology is not a very good thing?

Yes. They probably don't like it much. Oh well.

Nature or nurture as cause and effect?

I'm interested in your answer of what you think made you what you are, compared to what a person with my conservative views would think.

Which obviously here, I don't need to iluminate too much.

What made me what I am is a mixture of my genes, prenatal biological factors, diet, exercise, upbringing, exposure to information and political views, education, music, the country in which I was born, television, the internet, peers, relatives, toys, &c. &c. &c.

The Bible claims that raising and teaching a child respect for God and they will not depart from it. I think it's safe to say that that life wouldn't include non-belief, unfettered promiscuity or same-gender sexual interactions.

What exactly makes you think I practise unfettered promiscuity?

As for the non-belief, my parents aren't religious, so even if they had been conservative I would probably have turned out a non-theist. I have wound up sharing most of their political and social attitudes. So I think that my non-heterosexuality and my non-belief owe more to their liberal views and non-religiosity than to their style of parenting.

The main consequence of their parenting style, I think, is that we have never experienced any major conflicts, I have a deep and enduring friendship with both my parents which entails mutual respect, and I have never felt the urge to do anything particularly rebellious. I view these as positive results.

 

[HollandScotts]

And that's a bad thing? Keeping miscreants and reprobates from influencing children is a very noble quest. Dope smokers usually come eith a whole bag of debachery tricks for kids.

I'ld trust my kid around a pothead more than I would at a Catholic church, that's for sure.

 

[selfinflikted]

What exactly makes you think I practise unfettered promiscuity?

Oh please. Everyone knows that anyone who falls under the GLBT umbrella is obviously practicing "unfettered promiscuity." Why, just yesterday, I slept with over 1000 people.