Think I'll sit down here for a bit... (3)

[ctay]

Yep the visit must be going very well..............

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The body of Christ should ONLY be distributed by the ordained pastor of that congregation or by another ordained pastor in his absence. The pastor alone is the one who is responsible to determine who is eligible to receive communion at that altar. Elders, seminary students, and even vicars should not be the ones to admit people to the Lord's table since they do not yet have that authority to do so.

I find that interesting. Each time communion is offered at our church, my husband (the pastor) and I take communion together as husband and wife when everyone else is done. An elder gives us communion.

You put the power of communion in the hands of the pastor when you say something like this, rather than in the power of the word and the Holy Spirit. I can only hope that I misconstruing your point.

 

[dinkime]

hello preacherswife!!! glad to see you here (and another wels, woohoo!!)

 

[PreachersWife2004]

hello preacherswife!!! glad to see you here (and another wels, woohoo!!)

HI! It's great to be here amongst fellow believers!



I wish they had a smiley of Luther nailing the 95 theses.

 

[DaSeminarian]

I find that interesting. Each time communion is offered at our church, my husband (the pastor) and I take communion together as husband and wife when everyone else is done. An elder gives us communion.

You put the power of communion in the hands of the pastor when you say something like this, rather than in the power of the word and the Holy Spirit. I can only hope that I misconstruing your point.

No what we are saying is that the Pastor is the steward of God's mysteries and he has been by virtue of his vocation and ordination been given the authority by the Holy Spirit to administer the sacrament.

Christ gave this to the Apostles who handed it down through succession to those entrusted with God's word to do these things. The Pastor has been given the word and he exegizes it and gives it to you. As you hear the word, the Holy Spirit works to help you understand the word.

The Sacrament is another of God's mysteries, but it is not for just anyone to do.

 

[dinkime]

an elder gives our Pastor communion -- we have one pastor -- how else is he suppose to take it?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

No what we are saying is that the Pastor is the steward of God's mysteries and he has been by virtue of his vocation and ordination been given the authority by the Holy Spirit to administer the sacrament.

Christ gave this to the Apostles who handed it down through succession to those entrusted with God's word to do these things. The Pastor has been given the word and he exegizes it and gives it to you. As you hear the word, the Holy Spirit works to help you understand the word.

The Sacrament is another of God's mysteries, but it is not for just anyone to do.

You are LCMS, yes? When I spoke to my husband with regards to this question, he answered that an LCMS would bring up mysticism.

We'll have to disagree on who distributes communion. The bible never says that only a pastor can do it. Again, it's the WORDS alone. Nothing the pastor does makes that wine or bread anything different.

It's the same thing with baptism. If I wanted to baptize my own baby after birth, using the water and the word, it's just as much a baptism as if the pastor did it.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

an elder gives our Pastor communion -- we have one pastor -- how else is he suppose to take it?

Maybe he's supposed to give it to himself?

 

[DaSeminarian]

You are LCMS, yes? When I spoke to my husband with regards to this question, he answered that an LCMS would bring up mysticism.

We'll have to disagree on who distributes communion. The bible never says that only a pastor can do it. Again, it's the WORDS alone. Nothing the pastor does makes that wine or bread anything different.

It's the same thing with baptism. If I wanted to baptize my own baby after birth, using the water and the word, it's just as much a baptism as if the pastor did it.

As a difference between WELS and LCMS I would agree that we are a little bit more mystical and more high church than Wisconsin. We in the LCMS believe that the authority to administer the Sacrament belongs with the Pastor. Luther believed this as well. We still see ordination as the mark of the call on a Pastor. WELS to my understand makes ordination an option, but not required. We also put more emphasis on vocation than many WELS congregations.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

As a difference between WELS and LCMS I would agree that we are a little bit more mystical and more high church than Wisconsin. We in the LCMS believe that the authority to administer the Sacrament belongs with the Pastor. Luther believed this as well. We still see ordination as the mark of the call on a Pastor. WELS to my understand makes ordination an option, but not required. We also put more emphasis on vocation than many WELS congregations.

I doubt you are more high church than WELS. Most WELS churches (and most Lutherans in general) don't practice High Church anymore, but I'd say that WELS has stuck more to the old ways of doing things more than any other synod.

Ordination as an option? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Pastors in the WELS must be ordained. They have to go to school and then seminary. My husband has been in the ministry a year longer than he was in school to become a pastor.

I understand what the LCMS believes in terms of the sacraments - I'm just curious where the biblical backing of that comes from? Luther was trying to get away from the priests only having the power. Your view is strangely a Catholic view. You do know that Catholic priests believe that we as Lutherans don't receive the true body and blood because Martin Luther broke the line, right?

There's lots of churches that when a pastor goes on vacation (and they are allowed to do that) and there is no substitute pastors, often the president of the congregation will read the service...meaning he reads the texts and the sermons. In the president's "vocation" to serve the congregation (as with the elders) it reads that he will distribute communion when the pastor is unavailable to do so.

Would you really deny your congregation communion simply because your pastor wasn't available to distribute it?

Again, you're putting the power into the hands of the pastor and not the words. I don't know how you can argue that fact.

And of course, I do believe that whenever possible the pastor should be the one distributing communion. But saying that only the pastor can distribute is wrong and not biblically based.

 

[seajoy]

When did scrappin' in the kitchen start? I know I've been gone for a month, but this used to be kind of friendly in here.

Pie and coffee anyone?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I stand corrected on "High Church" principles.

While the WELS has long been known for their simpler services, they are coming back slowly to more High Church services.

Some history from the WELS.net site:

The LCMS has its roots in German Lutheran Confessionalism. Its founders came to America because they wanted to be the theological heirs of Martin Luther. One of the marks of German confessionalism was the use of the historic Lutheran liturgy. The first president, C.F.W. Walther, was not only a great theologian but also a liturgical expert and an outstanding church musician. He encouraged his descendants to carry on his liturgical priorities, and they did.

The WELS has its roots in German Pietism. One of the marks of Pietism was a disdain for the historic Lutheran liturgy. The first constitution of Grace Lutheran Church in Milwaukee, the founding congregation of the WELS, includes this statement: "Never shall the liturgy of the old Lutheran Church be used in this congregation." By that statement, Grace was taking direct aim at Trinity Church, the LCMS congregation across the Milwaukee River, where Walther's high liturgical rite was firmly in place. Grace's pastor and Wisconsin's first president, Johannes Muehlhaeuser, was very interested in saving souls but not interested in liturgy and music at all. His Wisconsin Synod descendants followed his example.

Their differences in liturgical propriety did not keep the WELS and the LCMS from sharing a common theological position, however, and they both joined the Lutheran Synodical Conference of North America in 1872. While appreciating Missouri's doctrinal position, Wisconsin often resented Missouri's bold--and sometimes showy--leadership. An old saying that originated in the 1920s bears this out: Wir sind von dem Wisconsin Synode; wir machen kein "show." We're from the Wisconsin Synod; we don't make a show.

The differences in liturgical appreciation between the two synods were strong from the very beginning, but what really pushed Wisconsin into an almost anti-liturgical mindset was the LCMS liturgical movement that began at Valparaiso University in the 1940s. It seemed to Wisconsin that Missouri's high liturgists were invariably the ones who questioned the historic teachings of orthodox Lutheranism, and there was some basis in fact to this observation. Any WELS pastor too interested in liturgy in the 1950s and 60s was likely to be distrusted by his brother pastors, since it was Missouri's denial of historic Lutheran doctrine and practice that eventually led Wisconsin to break with Missouri in 1961.

Worship in the WELS has tended to be somewhat austere and simplistic. Things began to change, however, when our synod began using The Lutheran Hymnal in 1941. TLH gave Wisconsin it's first real experience with the Lutheran liturgical rite, and, as the pastors and people became comfortable with the rite, they began to appreciate its strengths. Interest in worship grew in the 1970s and 80s and led the synod to the creation of Christian Worship: A Lutheran Hymnal in 1993. The hymnal was accompanied by a plethora of worship manuals and helps as well as improved worship education at WELS schools and its seminary. Today's the average WELS pastor and church are much more comfortable with a "higher" liturgical practice than were WELS Lutherans of a generation ago.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

When did scrappin' in the kitchen start? I know I've been gone for a month, but this used to be kind of friendly in here.

Pie and coffee anyone?

Only if it's apple, and if the coffee is flavored.

We're not scrappin', but I suppose a debate like this shouldn't be in the kitchen area.

 

[dinkime]

pie would be grea, seajoy!!



when you first said scrappin' i wanted to get to work on my scrapbook!!

 

[PreachersWife2004]

LOL!

I don't scrapbook, although I have a couple of albums that I need to finish...

I enjoy making cards more. I started out scrapbooking and then someone sent me a homemade card and I just thought well I can do that!

 

[KimLCMS]

What's going on today everyone? It is too hot here to do anything! It's supposed to be 94 degrees and with the humidity --- uhhh!

 

[Studeclunker]

Hmmm.... Seajoy and I take a little time off and the conversation in the kitchen gets a bit too heavy.

Interesting topic Sem and P, W., would the two of you be willing to start another thread?

You know, I found some thins in the store a couple of days ago that are perfect with tea or coffee. Speaking of which; the kettle is singing. Anyone for a cuppa? I'll be mother (got cocoa pouches too )!

 

[seajoy]

Hmmm.... Seajoy and I take a little time off and the conversation in the kitchen gets a bit too heavy.

Interesting topic Sem and P, W., would the two of you be willing to start another thread?

You know, I found some thins in the store a couple of days ago that are perfect with tea or coffee. Speaking of which; the kettle is singing. Anyone for a cuppa? I'll be mother (got cocoa pouches too )!

Ahhh, it's good to be home.

 

[DaSeminarian]

Only if it's apple, and if the coffee is flavored.

We're not scrappin', but I suppose a debate like this shouldn't be in the kitchen area.

I like Rhubarb, but my coffee must be coffee flavored with some milk added. No cream.

 

[Studeclunker]

Milk's in the fridge, Sem. Help yourself. Glad to meet another member, welcome to the kitchen.

Well, my brushes should be dry by now, so back to work. T.T.F.N!