Things you should know about Calvinism

Skala

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This post is an attempt to clear up some misunderstandings about Calvinism. It is not meant to be a full-fledged, detailed explanation of Calvinism.

Why did I make this post?
Because I see ignorance about Calvinism running rampant on these forums. It seems most non-Calvinists learned what little they know about Calvinism from raging anti-Calvinists, who in turn learned what they know from other raging anti-Calvinists. This leads to strawmen, mischaracterizations, biased and misleading information, and even outright lies.

So, in no particular order, some things you should know about Calvinism.

1) Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism are two different things.

The two are not synonymous. Hyper-Calvinism is not simply "vigorous Calvinism". Instead, Hyper-Calvinism is totally different than Calvinism. Calvinists reject Hyper-Calvinism as gross error.

For example, Calvinism affirms that God uses the gospel and evangelism as the tool, the means to bring sinners to salvation. Hyper-Calvinism denies that evangelism is necessary. Thus you can see that while Calvinism acknowledges that God uses means to reach an ends, Hyper-Calvinism does not acknowledge this.

2) Calvinism is not a denomination.

Once I heard someone say "I'm not a Calvinist; I'm a Baptist". What this person has done is commit a category error. Baptist is a denomination. Calvinism is a doctrine. Baptists can be Calvinists. In fact, many denominations have members that are Calvinists.

Calvinism is simply a doctrine, like Trinitarianism is a doctrine. You never hear someone say "I'm not a Trinitarian, instead, I'm a Methodist". As if those are the same category.

3) The term "Free will" needs to be defined before any meaningful discussion can happen

Calvinists will affirm or deny "Free will" in a discussion depending on what they think you mean in that moment of time, based on the context of the current conversation. This often leads to charges of inconsistency or contradiction.

When a Calvinist affirms free will, what he is affirming is that man A) has a will B) uses that will freely (ie, without coercion or force) and C) that man is free to do whatever he wants to do. For example, if a man wants to reject Jesus, he is free to do so. If a man wants to repent of his sins and follow Jesus, he is free to do so. He can always do what he wants to do.

When a Calvinist rejects free will, what they are rejecting is specifically the notion of libertarian free will (LFW), which is an idea that teaches man is neutral by default regarding God, not inclined either for or against him. LFW teaches that man's sinful, fallen, unregenerate nature has no bearing or affect on how fallen man views God or reacts to God or responds to God. In other words, LFW teaches that man does not act in accordance with his nature. Instead, he is totally free or neutral regarding God, therefore can simply lean to the right or the left, for or against, by an act of sheer willpower. Choosing what is holy or spiritually good, according to libertarian free will, is no different or more difficult than choosing whether or not to have dessert after dinner.

Calvinists reject LFW because they believe the Bible teaches that a creature always acts in accordance with his nature (and that nature is actually by default against God and hostile to the gospel) Jesus taught this when he said the type of tree determines the type of fruit it will bear. Another example is Jer 13:23 which sarcastically asks "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil." In other words, if the Ethiopian can change the color of his skin, then you also, who are used to doing evil, can simply choose to do good, just as easily as the Ethiopian can change his own skin or the leopard can change the spots on his fur.

The point of these verses is that a creature acts in a way consistent with his nature. An apple tree will never produce oranges - only apples. The Ethiopian cannot change his skin color, and the leopard cannot change his spots. To "be different", then, requires some powerful outside force to come in and change you. Calvinists view regeneration, the new birth, being born again as this powerful, outside change. And it's done by the Holy Spirit.

An apple will tree will only start producing oranges if someone changes it into an orange tree. Calvinists understand conversion the same way. A rebel, unregenerate man is hostile to God by fallen nature, and thus will never desire God (and choose God) until something first changes him. That's what the Holy Spirit does when he causes us to be born again and removes our stony hearts and replaces them with hearts of flesh.

4) Calvinists do believe in man's responsibility.

Each man is responsible and held accountable for whether or not he believed the gospel.

"But Skala, if it's God who is in charge of changing hearts so belief in the gospel is possible, how can he hold us accountable?"

Excellent question! In fact, that's the same question the Apostle Paul knew you would ask in Romans Chapter 9. Let's see how the Apostle answered this predicted question:

Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

V20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


What, the Apostle Paul's answer isn't good enough for you? Ah, I was worried about that. Maybe I can help with some more information.

Basically, God is responsible for our coming to faith in Jesus (ie, God gets all the credit for converting us and saving us), but he is not responsible for our unwillingness to obey the gospel. Our unwillingness to bow the knee to Christ comes from our own sinfulness. Thus its our fault, not God's, that we reject Jesus and disobey the gospel.

In other words, it's God's fault if we are saved, but it's our fault if we are not saved.

5) Calvinists are not fatalists.

Fatalism is the idea that no matter what you do, you cannot change change your fate and your fate is sealed. Rather than affirm this belief, Calvinists reject it. Instead, we affirm that God uses means to reach the ends. Fatalism is the idea that no matter what happens between points A and B in time, the outcome (C) is fixed. Some examples of fatalism would be:

A) Bob never hears the gospel. He has no clue who Jesus is. Bob grows old and dies. But because Bob was, unbeknownst to him, a part of the super secret group called "the elect", he is welcomed into heaven.

B) Jim hears the gospel and believes in it. He repents of his sins and puts his faith in Jesus. He lives a life trying to produce fruit that is pleasing to God. Jim dies, but because, unbeknownst to him, he wasn't part of the super secret group called "the elect", God rejects him and casts him into hell for all eternity!

The above are examples of fatalism. As you can see in the examples, whatever happened in temporal time didn't affect or match up with the outcome. Calvinists reject this as an impossibility. Instead, Calvinists affirm that whatever happens in time actually matches up with the outcome. This is because Calvinists believe God not only ordained the end, but also the means to that end (whereas fatalism says the means is irrelevant).

In other words, the only reason someone ever believes the gospel to begin with is because he is elect. The non-elect will never believe the gospel (because they don't want to), and the elect will always believe the gospel. Thus, the two examples I gave above (of fatalism) are impossible.

6) Calvinists don't think only Calvinists are "the elect"

The phrase "the elect" is a Biblical phrase - it's not something that Calvinists invented. The Bible speaks of Christ's bride, the church, as the elect of God, or "the chosen of God" (the word 'elect' means 'to choose'). In fact the Greek word for "church" is ekklesia which means "the called out ones" (called out from the world to God) or "the chosen ones", and ekklesia is derived from the word "eklektos" which means "to choose". This means that all born again Christians, regardless of their various beliefs and differences and disagreements about theology, are the elect. All Christians are God's elect. All Christians are God's chosen people, a royal priesthood.

For a fun study, open your electronic Bible and do a search of the New Testament for "elect" and "chosen".

7) You can be a Calvinist without ever reading a single thing John Calvin ever wrote.

This is because the doctrines that Calvinism encapsulates come from the pages of the Bible, not anything John Calvin ever produced. John Calvin did not invent the doctrines that Calvinism espouses and teaches. (In fact as you will see below, what you and I as modern Christians know as 'Calvinism' actually came much later after Calvin's death) John Calvin is simply one Bible teacher out of many that taught these doctrines throughout church history. All of the other reformers from the Reformation believed and taught the same things.

In fact, some of those Reformers taught on the doctrine of election and predestination harder and more often than John Calvin did. Such as Martin Luther himself, the father of the reformation. Here's a fantastic quote from Luther:

"If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright." - Martin Luther

(paraphrased: If anyone attributes any part of his salvation, even the smallest amount, to his own free will, he knows nothing of grace, and he hasn't learned correctly about Jesus Christ)

This leads me to point #8:

8) John Calvin did not invent TULIP

TULIP is an acronym for five important doctrines that Calvinism teaches. Some think it is a summary of Calvinism, but Calvinism is much more than the 5 points. It's an entire worldview about life and theology based on the idea that God is sovereign and gracious. I digress. These points are not Calvin's inventions. In fact, nobody ever sat down and said "Hey, I'm gonna create some theology in 5 distinct points!"

So how did TULIP come about? Great question!

In 1618 a group called "The Arminians" found some disagreements with reformed teaching. In fact, it was five (5) disagreements. They started a controversy, so back in those days, the proper thing to do was to hold a synod (a meeting) and discuss the issues, with a final verdict. This meeting was called the Synod of Dort. The result was called the Canons of Dort which you can read online for free:

Canons of Dort

The delegates of the Synod came from different parts of Europe: South Holland, North Holland, Zeeland, Utrecht, and other places. These delegates ranged from pastors to secretaries to elders to scribes. Men of all kinds of ranks and positions and hierarchy and social status and walks of life. Even some English and Frenchmen were invited.

Anyways, in this meeting, the 5 points of Arminianism (the five disagreements the Arminians had with the Dutch reformed church) were presented. And one by one, after much discussion, they were rejected by the Synod.

In rejecting the 5 points of Arminianism, naturally, there was, as a result, five (5) responses. These five responses came to be known as TULIP. So you see, TULIP was never a positive affirmation of Calvinist doctrine. Instead, it was the result of a negative response to (and rejection of) Arminianism.

In other words, it's not the Calvinists fault that TULIP is in 5 distinct points. Five (5) is simply the number of issues that the Arminians presented to the Synod.

Oh, and John Calvin was dead already for 50 years before this synod (meeting) happened, and thus before TULIP existed.

9) Calvinists believe in unconditional election, not unconditional justification or unconditional salvation

Sometimes you'll hear anti-Calvinists, when formulating their attacks against Calvinism, say stuff like "Psh, Calvinists believe that no matter what they do, they will be saved! They can reject Jesus and live like the devil, but they'll still be saved cause they think they are special and elect!"

As you can see, not only does this person think Calvinism teaches fatalism, but they also think Calvinists believe in unconditional justification. Justification is what most modern Christians mean when they use the word "saved". "When did you get saved?" - "Oh, about 20 years ago when I put my faith in Jesus".

Justification is the doctrine of our legal standing before God and being seen by him as guiltless because Jesus is now our substitute, by faith. Thus, when God looks at us, he sees Jesus's righteousness and perfection instead of our own lack of those things.

Election is the doctrine that God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, in order to be holy and blameless before him in love. (If you'll notice, I simply quoted, verbatim, the Apostle Paul's understanding of being chosen by God. See Ephesians Chapter 1)

This election by God was free and gracious and unearned/unmerited on our part. It was completely by mercy and grace that God chose to bestow his grace and love upon us. Hence, unconditional.

But that doesn't mean Calvinists believe in unconditional justification. Justification has a condition: faith.

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
Rom 5:1 therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

So while Calvinists believe we didn't do anything to get elected (election happened before we were born!), that doesn't mean a person can never put faith in Jesus and yet still be saved. Calvinists fully affirm that a person is justified (saved) by putting their faith in Jesus alone.

"But Skala, if a person was elected before the foundation of the world, won't he inevitably put his faith in Jesus and be justified?"

Hey, now you're catching on!
 

Skala

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10) Calvinists don't believe in arbitrary condemnation.

Calvinists believe salvation is free without any reference to our works, but we don't believe that our condemnation is without any reference to our sins. In other words, there is an asymmetry (ie, not the same) at work here.

Calvinists believe a man goes to hell because its what his sins deserve. A man is a sinner and thus is guilty for those sins, and thus God is always just for condemning men to hell.

11) Calvinists do believe that regeneration precedes faith, but they mean logically, not temporally.

When Calvinists say they believe regeneration precedes (comes before) faith, they don't necessarily mean that X amount of time elapses between the two. In fact, many Calvinists (such as myself) believe that regeneration and faith happen simultaneously (in temporal time). It is only in a logical sense that one happens "before" the other.

A (somewhat poor) analogy would be turning on a light switch. The switch is flipped to the "on" position at the same time the light comes alive and glows. Yet one of those two events (the light switch being flipped) had causal priority. One is the cart, the other is the horse. But they happened at the same time.

12) Perseverance of the saints does not mean that we work to keep our salvation.

Instead, it means that God works in us to keep us, thus we produce fruit as a result which gives assurance of salvation.
See 2 Peter 1:3-10

In other words, Calvinists don't view salvation as our efforts to hold onto God. Instead, we view salvation as God's effort to hold onto us. And He always finishes what he starts.

13) Calvinists believe that it is impossible for our human, finite mind to comprehend the paradox of God's sovereignty and human responsibility.

Nevertheless, seeing both in the Bible, Calvinists feel obligated to believe those things. Our own ability of understanding is not the litmus test of what is considered true. If that was so, we would reject the doctrine of the Trinity. (how can three persons be one being?) Instead, whatever the Bible reveals is true, whether or not we understand it.

Calvinists are happy to affirm that the secret things belong to the Lord, but the things that are revealed to us belong to us and our children (Deut 29:29)

14) Calvinists believe that God can ordain sinful acts without being the author of sin.

This touches point #13, but it is clearly seen in verses such as:

Luke 22:22 For it has been determined that the Son of Man must die, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!

In this verse, Jesus says that his death is determined; nevertheless, he casts woe upon the person who betrays him. Thus, somehow, Jesus views the man who betrays him as the person at fault (the sinner), not God who determined it would happen. God decreed the events, but the sinner is still the author of sin.

Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur

In this verse, yet again, we see that Christ's murder at the hands of men is predestined by God, but nevertheless the author of the passage still holds those men accountable for their actions in killing Jesus (evidenced in that he calls them "wicked" and "gathered against Jesus".) They were the wicked ones, scheming against Jesus. But nevertheless, they are carrying out God's predestined plan.

God's plan is always accomplished. Not surprising, is it?

Do you not understand how this is possible or reconcilable to the human mind? Good! Neither do Calvinists! We don't understand it either!

Do you still reject the concept that God is in control but man is held accountable for his sins? Then your beef is not with Calvinism, but the Bible. You're just using Calvinism as the punching bag to beat up something you don't like.

More examples for your study:
Joseph being sold into slavery by God's design. (Gen 50)
Assyria's attack, decreed by God (Isaiah 10)

15) Calvinists don't believe that a man is dragged, kicking and screaming against his will, to Jesus and salvation.

Calvinists believe in irresistible grace. Key word: grace. The will and heart and desires not passed-by in conversion. They are part of the process!

I once had a stony heart and callous will that hated Jesus and thus I freely and willingly chose to reject him!

But God came and changed me, spiritually, from within, and gave me a new heart and took my blindfold off. Now, I can see Christ's beauty and I desire Christ, thus I freely and willingly choose to follow Him!

If God had left it up to me, I would have happily rejected him all the way to hell. Thank God (literally) he intervened to save me!

16) Also, Calvinists don't believe it is possible for man who wants to be saved, but can't be, because he is not part of the elect.

If anyone actually wants to be saved, that is evidence the Holy Spirit is working in that person's life to grant the desire for Christ.

17) When Calvinists speak of an "inability to repent and believe", they mean a moral inability, not a natural inability.

This one is important. What is the difference between a natural and moral inability, you ask? Here's an analogy given by RC Sproul:

A) A man is sitting in a chair. He is bound by chains and restraints. Though the man may desire to stand up and get out of the chair, he is unable to do so, because he is bound by forces outside of himself.

B) Another man is sitting in another chair. He is not bound by any chains at all. But it's the most comfortable chair he has ever sat in. He is not willing to stand up. Thus, he is unable to stand up. But his inability is not because of outside forces, but because of himself (from within), and his own unwillingness.

As you can see, there are two types of inabilities. When Calvinists speak of people being "unable to repent and believe" (Total Depravity), they are referring to example #B above. They are saying that people are unwilling to turn to Jesus, and thus are unable to do so. They can't change their own desires. They are trapped in a state of enslavement to sin due to their fallen nature and unregenerate hearts. Thus, they are not willing to do what the gospel commands of them. That's why regeneration is necessary. It's what God does to change us so that we can now desire spiritually good things, and desire Jesus, repentance, etc. Through the gospel message, God visits sinners with regeneration and changes our hearts, and leads us to belief in the gospel.

To reiterate, people are by nature unwilling to turn to Jesus, and their unwillingness is the cause of their inability. You have to first be willing to do turn to Jesus before you are able to do so!

That's what Calvinists mean by "inability". Calvinists don't believe that some people want to turn to Jesus, but are, for some reason, unable to do so. Instead, what they mean is that the person is unwilling from the start, and have no desire to begin with.

(cont. below)
 
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MrJim

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*Edited Post*

I apologize for what is actually now "trolling" post. I realize that since I'm am no longer attending a Baptist congregation and am not returning that, after nearly 9 years (since the old "Baptist/Anabaptist" days), I'm not allowed to "debate" or post anything beyond "fellowship" posts here.

Vaya Con Dios
 
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Skala

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^_^ Calvinist damage control/PR outreach....:D

Nah, just some education and fixing some misunderstandings. Ironically, your mocking statement is guilty of one of the very things I addressed in the post: fatalism. You demonstrated by your rude post that you are part of the reason I felt the need to make the post. So it is me who is ^_^

In other words, your post is like a big red flag that says "Look everyone, what Skala said in the opening post about people who misunderstand Calvinism is actually true!"

^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^

Why bother~~the elect are elect and the reprobate are reprobate.....according to your doctrine....

Isn't the same thing true in your doctrine?

Or wait, are you saying in your doctrine the elect are the reprobate and the reprobate are the elect? How confusing....

In your doctrine, MrJim, are you elect or reprobate? If you are elect, does that mean you are reprobate? Or vice versa? Since obviously you abhor the idea that the elect are the elect. I can't think of another alternative.
 
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twin1954

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Though I may disagree slightly with some of what you wrote it is a very good general explanation of the views of Calvinists. But I fear that it will go unheeded and dismissed by those who want to continue with the tripe and lies against Calvinist views.

I would encourage you to continue to speak of election as God's electing love and to put it all together in how it relates to the person and work of Christ.

:thumbsup:
 
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Bluelion

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I am a slave of God how about that.

Few things man is not neutral as Paul writes in Romans man is hostile to God because of a law he can not possibly keep but try to make himself right with God by doing good, or keeping the law. whether he has the law of Moses or it is written on his heart right from wrong he try to keep it which is impossible and makes him hostile to God because of his sinful nature. What Paul writes in 9 reflect man asking why he has this sinful nature and the answer is Adam. Building before chapter 9 Paul is discussing man and his sinful nature. But give me till the end of this week chapter 9 is this week in a course on Romans i am in right now.

the issue has always been those saying man has no free will, and i am not talking about libertarian, but rather man is responsible for his circumstances he finds him self in even sin from Adam. While no one comes to the father except by Jesus as Jesus stated, people with God's help can see their transgressions against the law and except Christ. Jesus always put responsibility back on the person. Jesus condemned those who did not believe after he worked miracles in front of them. He told John the Baptist that blessed are those who do not turn away because of Him.

I have been working on my son who is very hostile to God and an atheist, I see there is nothing in my power i can do to bring him to God, that God has to work on his heart. So i believe God helps us come to Him and to see, but He still gives us a choice to make. Some in your camp argue there is not choice and that is a problem. As you used Romans lets stick with that, Paul makes it very Clear Jesus is for everyone. That Jesus died for everyone, if all the world would except him He would save every last one of them. Says God is willing all be saved, and that is another issue i have with you camp some say Jesus only died for them. Sorry that is elitism.

So those are the issues i take. other than that its fine.
 
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skypair

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The main thing to keep in mind is that John Calvin and his retinue of followers/councils weren't saved and "the natural man receives not the things of God for they are foolishness to him." (1Cor 2:14)

Hence, it is foolishness that God "so loved the world" and will save "whosoever believeth on Him." It is foolishness that man has free will. It is foolishness that "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should [willingly] come to repentance."

It is almost unproductive to speak with those who have their own bible + councils of men to prop up their misunderstandings of scripture.

skypair
 
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98cwitr

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wow...thank you for this. I realized that for me to be classified as a calvinist is an error...as it seems, per definition, I am a fatalist. As it stands, I disagree with #16, as everyone wants to be saved, but many are not willing. "Everyone wants to go to heaven, but they dont want God to be there." - Paul Washer.
 
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twin1954

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The main thing to keep in mind is that John Calvin and his retinue of followers/councils weren't saved and "the natural man receives not the things of God for they are foolishness to him." (1Cor 2:14)

Hence, it is foolishness that God "so loved the world" and will save "whosoever believeth on Him." It is foolishness that man has free will. It is foolishness that "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should [willingly] come to repentance."

It is almost unproductive to speak with those who have their own bible + councils of men to prop up their misunderstandings of scripture.

skypair
Your response is a perfect example of what I feared would happen. You totally ignore what Calvinists actually believe in order to continue to spit the tripe you know is false
 
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Somber Warrior

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Can I please ask an impertinent question?

We're all Christians, all Baptists, so why is the endless debate over Calvinism the predominant topic around here? It is never, ever going to be resolved -- particularly not on a message board and most likely never, ever anywhere else, either.

Seems to me, given the nature of the secular side of the board, we should be fellowshiping, finding community and commonality, so we can bring a positive message of Christ to the lost who on the other side of the wall here.
 
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twin1954

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Can I please ask an impertinent question?

We're all Christians, all Baptists, so why is the endless debate over Calvinism the predominant topic around here? It is never, ever going to be resolved -- particularly not on a message board and most likely never, evern anywhere else, either.

Seems to me, given the nature of the secular side of the board, we should be fellowshiping, finding community and commonality, so we can bring a positive message of Christ to the lost who on the other side of the wall here.

Can two walk together except they be agreed? Amos 3:3 The simple fact is that there are two different Gospels. One puts man in the driver's seat making him his own savior and the other puts God in control and puts salvation solely in the hands of God.

We cannot present a united front because we cannot be united around different Gospels. Sorry if that offends anyone but I am convinced that it is the truth.

How can I fellowship with those who think my God is a monster or puppet master?
 
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Somber Warrior

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Can two walk together except they be agreed? Amos 3:3 The simple fact is that there are two different Gospels. One puts man in the driver's seat making him his own savior and the other puts God in control and puts salvation solely in the hands of God.

We cannot present a united front because we cannot be united around different Gospels. Sorry if that offends anyone but I am convinced that it is the truth.

How can I fellowship with those who think my God is a monster or puppet master?
Well, forgive me for disagreeing, but Calvin and Arminius were not preaching different gospels. I'm neither, by the way. That may be difficult for some on either side to grasp.

That said, I would point out to you that Spurgeon disposed of the argument long ago. I saw it posted on this board, I think, not long after I joined, and checked it out for accuracy. Can't remember who posted it, however. It is worth repeating.

Anyway, Spurgeon said he reads that God is sovereign and he must believe it. And he reads that man is responsible, and he must believe it. He went on to say, at first glance, these appear to be two parallel lines that can never meet, can never be resolved. But, he concluded, they must, because they are both true according to Scripture (I'm not going to argue with an intellect the likes of Spurgeon) so somewhere in eternity they must meet.

That's good enough for me. If I'm not meant to fully understand how a sovereign God can know who will be saved, and yet hold man responsible for being one or the other, then I happily conclude that it a mystery I will understand on the other side of this life, and choose not to let the dichotomy bother me, or influence me to think that someone who has decided it is one way or the other is right or wrong. I don't believe anyone knows. Spurgeon didn't, and it didn't bother him.

I think endless discussions, which tend toward useless efforts of proving a brother or sister in Christ on one side or the other as being a "heretic," are destructive to the body of Christ, and the concept that this is "two gospels" is even more so. I bow out now, leaving both sides to their destructive interfaces.
 
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skypair

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Your response is a perfect example of what I feared would happen. You totally ignore what Calvinists actually believe in order to continue to spit the tripe you know is false
OK, let's say this: It is called "Calvinism" because it comes from Calvin's thoughts, not God's. The Spirit and the Bible are the "mind of Christ." The spirit and the Institutes" are the mind of John Calvin (with large doses of Augustine thrown in for good measure).

How do you know that either one of them was saved?

Here's something to compare with: I visited Salt Lake City where I buttonholed an elder to explain to me whether they believed the Bible. He said, "We believe the Book of Mormon and the Bible as interpreted by our elders." Isn't that all in the world that we are seeing of Calvinism??

Yeah, it causes you to live good lives .. just like the Mormons. But does it get you to heaven? No. Neither one does. It is a gospel for this life only, 1Cor 15:19 — "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

skypair
 
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Hammster

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Can I please ask an impertinent question?

We're all Christians, all Baptists, so why is the endless debate over Calvinism the predominant topic around here? It is never, ever going to be resolved -- particularly not on a message board and most likely never, ever anywhere else, either.

Seems to me, given the nature of the secular side of the board, we should be fellowshiping, finding community and commonality, so we can bring a positive message of Christ to the lost who on the other side of the wall here.

Maybe it's just me, but sometimes you have to win by surrender. Ya know what I mean, brother of mine? Otherwise you'll be trying to communicate and it's like their number is disconnected. And you're like, "dang, I put all those nickels in the phone".
 
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Somber Warrior

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Maybe it's just me, but sometimes you have to win by surrender. Ya know what I mean, brother of mine? Otherwise you'll be trying to communicate and it's like their number is disconnected. And you're like, "dang, I put all those nickels in the phone".
Uh ... OK? Perhaps once more, with interpretation?
 
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twin1954

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Maybe it's just me, but sometimes you have to win by surrender. Ya know what I mean, brother of mine? Otherwise you'll be trying to communicate and it's like their number is disconnected. And you're like, "dang, I put all those nickels in the phone".

Do they still have pay phones? I haven't seen one in quite a while.

You must be very old, like me, if you remember when it only cost a nickel to make a phone call. :p
 
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