Things that surprise me...

[circuitrider]

The interesting thing about the term "conversion" is that it only appears once in the New Testament. It is in Acts and it is talking about gentiles converting to Christianity.

The impression you get from the passage is that it is about people moving from a gentile pagan understanding of faith to Christianity.

The rest of the Bible talks about faith, belief, grace, baptism, etc. but "conversion" is not used.

I believe evangelicals made a mistake adopted a term that is so rare in the New Testament to describe every faith walk of every Christian.

People who grow up in the faith are certainly not "converted" from one faith to another. Many people who come to Christ now come out of no faith background or a nominal Christian background so "conversion" isn't a term that describes their experience with Christ.

The other problems with conversion I've mentioned above. It makes it sound like you have turned from being a total unbeliever to a perfect Christian in one move. Of course that does not happens for most people. Most people develop faith over time and their faith grows over time.

 

[mrfun83]

I read last night Wesley's description of what a Methodist "should be". Pretty tall order - but nothing that is un-scriptural - both from the Old and New Testaments, which both teach that we should aspire to holiness before God and with mankind this side of eternity. Just as our Lord and Father God (one in the same) are consistent models of this and do not change, so Christ is Our Great Example and we are to emulate Him. I'm sure there are scoffers who say this can't be done in this life, but why aspire to something low and common?
Our delegates are going to the Annual Conference at Lake Junaluska next week - we need to keep them in our prayers.

 

[circuitrider]

Our annual conference begins this Saturday morning and will run through next Tuesday. I'm going as well as two lay members of the annual conference from the church I pastor.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Circuitrider. In God`s Eyes we are all equal, God made us in His Image. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus our Saviour gave us good advice, what does God want from us? God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters.
The first and great Commandment is: " Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 40, Jesus points out this great truth: " On these two
Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Everything we say or do, everything we advice or stand for,
should be from Love and Compassion: 1)" Love God with all our beings, and love our neighbour as we love ourselves." ( our neighbour: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) Love is a Christian`s weapon.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," shed our selfish wishes and wants, be loving and caring. Love is very
catching, and we will find, that people around us will treat as the same as we treat people, a kind smile will go a long way. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " ask and you shall receive," we ask God for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour. We keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour. All around us will know that we are representing God and Jesus our Saviour and Friend.
The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and we will find that life around us will be enjoyable. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us and carry on Loving and Caring. It might be a bit strange at first,
but we will find that God`s Love is with us, and we change into the men and women which God wants.
Love will change a multitude of sins. I say this with love, Circuitrider. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[circuitrider]

That't nice Emmy but I'm not sure why it is aimed at me. I'm aware of the Bible's teaching on love. And I am a professing Christian. Unless you are concerned about statements about conversion theology.

Just so you know, your quote "repent and be born again" should not be in quotes. There is no such phrase in the Bible. So it isn't a quote unless you are quoting something else. I prefer John 3:16. "16“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. " NRSV

I suppose you could be thinking of as Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

 

[mrfun83]

Good Morning Emmy and Circuit Rider - Since y'all brought it up, why did Jesus tell Nicodemus in John 3 that he needed to be "born again"? To me, this is an equivalent statement to Romans 12:2. I know we may be playing a game of semantics, but words mean things.

Hope you are both well and you're enjoying Annual Conference, CR!

 

[circuitrider]

Actually Jesus said you have to be born from above. The word for above and again are the same word in Greek. That is why Nicodemus was confused about what Jesus and was questioning him about being born again when Jesus was talking about being born from above. If you look at the NRSV translation it recognizes that difference.

 

[circuitrider]

Oh, and I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on Romans 12:2 because they are related but don't look "equivalent" to me.

 

[mrfun83]

Oh, and I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on Romans 12:2 because they are related but don't look "equivalent" to me.

I was referring to the first half of the verse, where it discusses transformation of the mind. The John 3 conversation deals with the transformation of the heart. Wesleyan's understand that both transformations are necessary to live a holy life. Can't just have head knowledge - "I believe that Christ is Lord and is resurrected and lives" without "the circumcision of the heart". Can't just be heart knowledge of a "feelings" religion - sorrow/tears for our sins and yet we reject having the mind of Christ and act and speak based on the realization that He is Lord and we have been transformed.
Holiness/Sanctification - the actions that come from a transformed heart and mind - produce fruit in accordance with repentance. That's my tie-in...but I'm just a dimestore theologian...

 

[circuitrider]

I would tend to say that we are being transformed, not that we have already been transformed. United Methodist theology sees Christianity as a journey so that none of us have arrived yet at full transformation of heart and life. We are earnestly striving for sanctification and that does not usually happen at the moment of salvation but as part of our walking daily with Christ.

 

[KimT]

I too see the dangers in that doctrinal slant. One thing the body of Messiah is sorely lacking overall is true Christian maturity. I do not know if you ever heard of a guy from south america named Juan Carlos Ortiz, but he wrote a couple of books back in the 1970s. In one of them, "Call to Discipleship," he tells of starting a mission church which grew from nothing to a megachurch (by our modern definition) but he sensed something was missing. While taking a time of prayer and seeking God, he came to the realization that instead of pastoring a church of strong young believers; he was babysitting an orphanage full of infants.

"Conversion" alone will never produce strong, mature believers. There is an ongoing growth process; and MOST of the bible is geared toward telling us how to live and grow AFTER initial conversion. Why do so many see it the other way around?

Part of our "readings" during new membership class was "Call to Discipleship." Excellent read. Our pastor is very big on growing Christians. He gives hours and hours of his time doing teaching and we have several retired pastors (one Baptist) who attend our church and lead Bible studies.

 

[Nemo Neem]

Few things have shaped my theology as much as understanding the history of our mostly-American theologies of late. And the marrying of certain political ideologies with Christian ideologies of the 1950's. Frankly, some of our deeply held Christian-American theological ideas are no older than the 1950's and the need for a propaganda against the russians; and making us the good Christians and them the evil heathens work (Adding "Under God" to everything, for example).

Just like a recent poster claiming that the UMC was succumbing to some sort of leftist Agenda by suggesting alms for the poor, demanding fair wages, rejecting various inhumane practices; etc. The problem is, these are Wesleyan and just generally 'Christian' before that. It's only been the last few decades that some of these ideologies have been associated with christianity.

A great example is Pope Francis suggesting things that aren't new, that every Pope before him have said; like the need to care for the poor, that fair wages are the moral thing to do, and so forth. But because Francis has been in the spotlight; people are up in arms that he's this evil "Progressive" pope. And he has reminded interviewers that nothing is new, not in centuries of Catholicism. And, nobody outside of the U.S. thinks thinking along the lines of the poor should be cared for, corporations shouldn't have all the wealth while people starve, etc., are "leftist" ideologies.

See, the problem is we want to "marry" our politics with our religious beliefs. That's where we get into trouble. Most of the issues Christians debate on would be solved if they were left in the church and not made political issues.

 

[circuitrider]

See, the problem is we want to "marry" our politics with our religious beliefs. That's where we get into trouble. Most of the issues Christians debate on would be solved if they were left in the church and not made political issues.

Some issues like race and marriage are automatically both religious and political. So it is pretty tough for the two not to crossover. As long as religious ceremonies require a government license and as long as marriage gives a married couple certain benefits from the government then we have to deal with the implications of both.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Absolutely CR. Though I think he has an excellent point in that the pervasive theory of a good Christian and a good American being one in the same is a problem. Then it becomes anything your political party suggests is what you, as a Christian, ought to do. Whether or not it's a genuinely Christian philosophy.

 

[Celticflower]

Absolutely CR. Though I think he has an excellent point in that the pervasive theory of a good Christian and a good American being one in the same is a problem. Then it becomes anything your political party suggests is what you, as a Christian, ought to do. Whether or not it's a genuinely Christian philosophy.

Which is part of the reason I have no political party affiliation. I actually pay attention to what the candidates say and do and make my own decisions, often voting for a third party or independent candidate.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

@circuitrider Your politics icon says it all. The words follow but really I should have had no need to read them because all I needed to do was check the icon.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

@circuitrider Your politics icon says it all. The words follow but really I should have had no need to read them because all I needed to do was check the icon.

It's a shame when we decide that a person has affiliated themselves with something and now have no more to offer and are of no worth.

I would encourage you to lay aside your prejudices and hear what he has to say. You might not agree with it. You probably won't. But there's simply no good reason to completely ignore someone because they vote differently than you.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

It's a shame when we decide that a person has affiliated themselves with something and now have no more to offer and are of no worth.

I would encourage you to lay aside your prejudices and hear what he has to say. You might not agree with it. You probably won't. But there's simply no good reason to completely ignore someone because they vote differently than you.

He votes differently because his beliefs are different. Since his beliefs are different what he writes follows suit. That was all I was getting at.

It should have been no surprise to me that someone who believes in woman pastors mind was boggled by those who don't.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

The phrase "believes in" in that context always makes me chuckle.

So I suppose you DON'T "believe in" women Pastors? Well I hate to break it to ya, but I talked to one just yesterday! They are real!