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Hi Dale,
The gathering by the kings of the earth of their armies at Armageddon is to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.
Take a look at Revelation 19:17-21. Jesus returning to this earth.
----------------------------------------------------------------
In verses 17-18 the kings of the earth and their armies are about to die, and the birds are going to have a huge feast on their dead bodies. btw, these two verses correspond to Ezekiel 39:17-20. Jesus's return is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.
Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In verse 19 is what links us back to the Revelation 16:16 as why the gathering of the armies at Armageddon.
The kings of the earth will be doing that to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgement on them. As they will have seen Jesus suddenly appear in heaven, in the sixth seal event in Revelation 16:12-17, and say.... 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus first deals with the beast-king and the false prophet....
Revelation 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then Jesus in verse 21 destroys the kings of the earth and their armies that will have gathered to make war on Him and His armies. And the birds eat their dead flesh, fulfilling verses Revelation 19:17-18... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 19:
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This chart I made may also be helpful.
View attachment 359065
Dale, you don't mention any verses in your above post, so I really don't understand what you mean.That really dosn't help. It tells us that it is God's purpose to destroy these evil, destructive armies and whoever is leading them. That doesn't tell us what the plans of these earthly, demon-driven kings are.
Shock and Awe: the Lord’s Day of Wrath:
How bad will the Lord’s response to the attack of Psalm 83 be?
When the sun explodes out a massive CME…. Isaiah 30:26, Psalms 50:1-3
When the Arm of the Lord descends in anger…..Isaiah 30:30, Zephaniah 3:8
When He flashes lightning and fiery coals onto the earth. Deut. 32:22, Psalm 18:13-14
When the Day comes, burning like a furnace. Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7
Most people have no conception of the worldwide devastation that will be caused by the hit upon the earth by the Lord’s fiery Day of vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 29:6 What is prophesied will be so shocking, so terrifying, that it is impossible for us to really comprehend and only when it happens, will we realise the full extent of the damage done to the world and our modern infrastructure.
There has never been a comparable natural disaster in recorded history. The nearest to it may be the continuous winters of 1883-87, caused by the ash clouds from Krakatoa, or some recent tsunamis. Only Noah’s flood really compares, but fortunately this time we have God’s promise to never again destroy man and animals so extensively. Genesis 9:16 Many people will die, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 34:3, but most will survive.
As the survivors come out from under whatever shelter they have found, Isaiah 2:20-21, Revelation 6:15, there will be little, if any light for weeks or months. Amos 5:20, Zephaniah 1:15 Most buildings will be destroyed by earthquake and fire, Isaiah 24:18, Zephaniah 3:8 and huge tsunamis will wipe out all coastal cities and towns. Jeremiah 51:42, Amos 9:6
Normal mains electricity supply will not be restored for years. Only small generators will be able to supply power and these will soon run out of fuel, as will all motor transport. Line telephone systems and radio communication may be set up fairly quickly, but mobile phones and internet may never be re-established.
The world will slowly recover and in order to regain control and normal services, a 10 region One World Government will be organised. Daniel 7:23-24 However, those who have maintained their faith and trust in the Creator God during this time of testing have the promises of His redemption and their gathering into all of the Holy Land. Deuteronomy 30:3, Isaiah 35, Psalms 107, Zechariah 10:8, Hosea 11:10-11, Ezekiel 11:17, Ezekiel 36:8, Isaiah 49:8-23, Jeremiah 23:3-4, Psalms 69:35-36, Colossians 1:11-12, Revelation 7:9-14
The like a thief verses don't disprove the Rapture, but the like a thief phrase is used to emphasize the surprise happening of different events.
1. the Rapture event.
2. the beginning of the day of the Lord.
3. the appearance of the Son of Man in heaven (Revelation 16:15) that causes the reaction for the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.
Hi Dale,
The gathering by the kings of the earth of their armies at Armageddon is to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.
Take a look at Revelation 19:17-21. Jesus returning to this earth.
----------------------------------------------------------------
In verses 17-18 the kings of the earth and their armies are about to die, and the birds are going to have a huge feast on their dead bodies. btw, these two verses correspond to Ezekiel 39:17-20. Jesus's return is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.
Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In verse 19 is what links us back to the Revelation 16:16 as why the gathering of the armies at Armageddon.
The kings of the earth will be doing that to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgement on them. As they will have seen Jesus suddenly appear in heaven, in the sixth seal event in Revelation 16:12-17, and say.... 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus first deals with the beast-king and the false prophet....
Revelation 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then Jesus in verse 21 destroys the kings of the earth and their armies that will have gathered to make war on Him and His armies. And the birds eat their dead flesh, fulfilling verses Revelation 19:17-18... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 19:
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This chart I made may also be helpful.
View attachment 359065
I appreciate your detailed analysis, I believe the Scriptures provide a basis for the rapture as a distinct event from the Second Coming. Let me address your points:There are several verses in the New Testament where Jesus is compared to a thief in that He will come, return from Heaven, at an unexpected time. Jesus speaks of himself this way in Matthew and Luke, and Paul and Peter make the same point in the Epistles. There are two more thief verses in Revelation. Why does this matter?
There is no possibility that these thief verses are a warning that some will be “left behind” at a rapture separate from the Second Coming. The last thief verse is too close to the coming of Christ at the end of Revelation. The last thief verse is Revelation 16:15 and Christ comes as the rider on a white horse in Revelation 19:11.
Revelation 16:15 comes just before the Seventh Bowl is poured out. To put this in perspective, in Revelation we have the Seven Seals, the Seven Trumpets and then the Seven Bowls. Six Seals are opened in Chapter 6 and the Seventh Seal unleashes the Seven Trumpets. The Seven Trumpets sound in Chapters Eight to Eleven. After Revelation 16:15, the Seventh Bowl is poured out two verses later in verse 17. The Beast and the False Prophet arise in Chapter 13.
The whole idea of the Rapture is that the Second Coming is split into two parts, a secret flyover, and the public Second Coming. Jesus would take His followers out of this world in the secret flyover to spare them the reign of the Beast. If that was going to happen it would have to happen long before Revelation 16:15.
The thief verses are a series of warnings that the return of Christ from Heaven will be unexpected, many will be surprised. Dispensationalists tell me that after the Rapture the earth will be in a new dispensation. There will be no church and no Holy Spirit. I guess that means that the Holy Spirit will not be active. Yet in Revelation 16:15 we see the same warning that Jesus gave in Matthew 24, the apocalyptic chapter in Matthew, that Jesus will come as a thief. This warning must be conveyed to the church by the Holy Spirit.
See Post #2 for a list of thief verses.
Isaiah 30:26a The sun will shine with seven times it normal brightness, like 7 days in one and the Moon shall shine [reflect it] as brightly as the sun.Not one of the verses you cite says anything about fire coming out of the sun.
This is a fundamental error of the rapture to heaven believers.The "thief" analogy emphasizes the suddenness and unpredictability of Christ's return.
Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven accompanied Hm......at the Second Coming, He comes with His saints (Revelation 19:14, Jude 1:14-15).
I appreciate your detailed analysis, I believe the Scriptures provide a basis for the rapture as a distinct event from the Second Coming. Let me address your points:
1. "Thief in the Night" Imagery:
The "thief" analogy emphasizes the suddenness and unpredictability of Christ's return. 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 states:
"For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief."
This passage distinguishes between believers, who are prepared, and unbelievers, who are caught off guard. This aligns with the rapture being a separate event that removes the church before the tribulation. The warning to stay vigilant applies to those awaiting Christ’s return, not necessarily to a post-tribulation audience.
2. Revelation Timeline:
The placement of Revelation 16:15 near the end of the tribulation does not preclude a pre-tribulation rapture. The Book of Revelation is not strictly chronological—it often revisits themes from different perspectives. The warning in Revelation 16:15 could apply to those who come to faith during the tribulation, as many will turn to Christ after the church has been raptured (see Revelation 7:14).
3. Role of the Holy Spirit:
Dispensational theology does not assert that the Holy Spirit ceases to exist or act during the tribulation. Instead, it teaches that the Spirit's role in indwelling the church (as seen in John 14:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 3:16) changes. After the rapture, the Spirit continues to convict, guide, and empower tribulation believers, which explains the warning in Revelation 16:15.
4. Separation of Events:
The rapture and the Second Coming serve different purposes. In the rapture, Christ comes for His church (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), while at the Second Coming, He comes with His saints (Revelation 19:14, Jude 1:14-15). This distinction supports the idea of two events rather than one combined return.
In conclusion, the "thief" warnings emphasize preparedness for Christ’s return, but they do not exclude the possibility of a pre-tribulation rapture. The warnings in Revelation likely address tribulation saints, and the timeline of Revelation is flexible enough to accommodate a pre-tribulation rapture alongside the Second Coming.
Isaiah 30:26a The sun will shine with seven times it normal brightness, like 7 days in one and the Moon shall shine [reflect it] as brightly as the sun.
Psalms 50:1-4, Joel 2:2, also tell us how the sun must be involved.
Also, a CMe is the only natural event that can literally fulfil all the vividly described effects of the terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath.
You won't need to try to guess what they really mean, as their fulfilment will do that.I may not bother to answer these claims in the future.
Joel 2, is quite clear; what is coming is LIKE an army.. It is described in verse 3 as: devouring fire before and leaping flames behind.There is no fire here. Judgment comes in the form of “a large and mighty army,” an army of foreigners.
The rapture/resurrection verses are in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 and 1Thessalonians5:9-11.You keep mentioning the rapture. Your charts are useless because they start with a “rapture,” something not found in the Bible.
Hi Dale,
The gathering by the kings of the earth of their armies at Armageddon is to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.
Take a look at Revelation 19:17-21. Jesus returning to this earth.
----------------------------------------------------------------
In verses 17-18 the kings of the earth and their armies are about to die, and the birds are going to have a huge feast on their dead bodies. btw, these two verses correspond to Ezekiel 39:17-20. Jesus's return is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.
Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In verse 19 is what links us back to the Revelation 16:16 as why the gathering of the armies at Armageddon.
The kings of the earth will be doing that to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgement on them. As they will have seen Jesus suddenly appear in heaven, in the sixth seal event in Revelation 16:12-17, and say.... 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus first deals with the beast-king and the false prophet....
Revelation 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then Jesus in verse 21 destroys the kings of the earth and their armies that will have gathered to make war on Him and His armies. And the birds eat their dead flesh, fulfilling verses Revelation 19:17-18... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 19:
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This chart I made may also be helpful.
View attachment 359065
Hi Dale,
The gathering by the kings of the earth of their armies at Armageddon is to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.
Take a look at Revelation 19:17-21. Jesus returning to this earth.
----------------------------------------------------------------
In verses 17-18 the kings of the earth and their armies are about to die, and the birds are going to have a huge feast on their dead bodies. btw, these two verses correspond to Ezekiel 39:17-20. Jesus's return is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.
Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In verse 19 is what links us back to the Revelation 16:16 as why the gathering of the armies at Armageddon.
The kings of the earth will be doing that to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgement on them. As they will have seen Jesus suddenly appear in heaven, in the sixth seal event in Revelation 16:12-17, and say.... 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus first deals with the beast-king and the false prophet....
Revelation 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then Jesus in verse 21 destroys the kings of the earth and their armies that will have gathered to make war on Him and His armies. And the birds eat their dead flesh, fulfilling verses Revelation 19:17-18... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 19:
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This chart I made may also be helpful.
View attachment 359065
Dale, those verses are referring to Antiochus IV. His troops placed a statue of Zeus in the temple on his behalf.You seem to think I need educating on the end of Revelation. Let me offer you a reminder of what we find near the end of Daniel.
“He will be succeeded by a contemptible person who has not
been given the honour of royalty. He will invade the kingdom
when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through
intrigue. Daniel 11:21 NIV
This “contempible person” is the Antichrist, also called the King of the North in Daniel.
The king of the North will return to his own country with
great wealth, but his heart will be set against the holy
covenant. He will take action against it and then return to his
own country.
Daneil 11:28 NIV
“His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress
and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the
abomination that causes desolation.
Daniel 11:31 NIV
You are misunderstanding what Jesus meant in Matthew 24:27. He was not referring that His return being as quick as lightning.For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in thewest, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:27 NIV
This is from the apocalyptic chapter in Matthew. It tells us that the Second Coming will be sudden, like a lightning bolt, and visible to everyone.
Dale, those verses are referring to Antiochus IV. His troops placed a statue of Zeus in the temple on his behalf.
I agree.I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what
will the outcome of all this be?”
He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are
closed up and sealed until the time of the end.
Daniel 12:8-9 NIV
The Book of Daniel tells us that the prophecy cannot be understood until the end times arrive. Moreover, Jesus tells us that the “desolating abomination” (or “abomination of desolation” in some translations) spoken of by Daniel is still in the future.
The Daniel 11:31 abomination of desolation precedes the time of the end. It prefigures what the time of the end abomination of desolation will be - i.e. a statue image placed in a holy place.This “desolating abomination” appears in Daniel chapters 9, 11 and 12.
For one week he shall make a firm
compact with the many; Half the week
he shall abolish sacrifice and oblation;
On the temple wing shall be the horrible
abomination until the ruin that is
decreed is poured out upon the horror."
Daniel 9:27 NAB
Armed forces shall move at his
command and defile the sanctuary
stronghold, abolishing the daily sacrifice
and setting up the horrible abomination.
Daniel 11:31 NAB
I agree that Antiochus is not the Antichrist person. I disagree that the Antichrist is one of the series of the kings of the north.The Book of Daniel tells us that this King of the North/Antichrist will die while attacking Israel, but Antiochus Epiphanes died in Iran. The King of the North described in Daniel 11:45 cannot refer to Antiochus Epiphanes.
Hi Dale,
The gathering by the kings of the earth of their armies at Armageddon is to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.
Take a look at Revelation 19:17-21. Jesus returning to this earth.
----------------------------------------------------------------
In verses 17-18 the kings of the earth and their armies are about to die, and the birds are going to have a huge feast on their dead bodies. btw, these two verses correspond to Ezekiel 39:17-20. Jesus's return is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.
Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In verse 19 is what links us back to the Revelation 16:16 as why the gathering of the armies at Armageddon.
The kings of the earth will be doing that to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgement on them. As they will have seen Jesus suddenly appear in heaven, in the sixth seal event in Revelation 16:12-17, and say.... 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus first deals with the beast-king and the false prophet....
Revelation 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then Jesus in verse 21 destroys the kings of the earth and their armies that will have gathered to make war on Him and His armies. And the birds eat their dead flesh, fulfilling verses Revelation 19:17-18... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 19:
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This chart I made may also be helpful.
View attachment 359065
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