They Deserve a State ??

[ScottBot]

That's a strawman AVO . . . you attacked one of MM's statement focused on the Palestinian side, yet commended his statement focused on the Israeli side, yet apparently do not realize he was saying the same thing from two different persepctives.

It is a failure to understand this simple fact that leads one to the strawman argument that Catholics here who condemn Israel's terrorist acts are "hell-bent on the destruction of Israel". That is nothing more than bearing false witness against your own brethern.

I think it would be good to focus on what is actually being said by those who take a stand against Israel's political game rather than this fabricated polemic strawman which has no basis in reality. It is quite offensive actually.

.

I commended MM post precisely because it was fair and objective and not filled with that "Zionist war pigs" polemic crap that has been littering this thread for a while now. Present whatever side you want, but as a moderator I am obligated to put a stop to ad hominem and guilty by association logical fallacies when I see them.

And posting a treaty between the Vatican and Israel both recognizing each other's legitimacy is a strawman? I think it is about as germain to this conversation as any thing that has been posted....particularly if you are a Catholic and you espouse a view that Israel has no legitimate right to exist. It does, the Pope says so, and the picking and choosing what to believe should stop. If you are Catholic and wish to express your disapproval of what you feel are heavy handed measures taken by Israel, feel free. To say they don't have a right to exist as a nation, regardless of the circumstances surrounding how it came to be, is reckless and irresponsible.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I commended MM post precisely because it was fair and objective and not filled with that "Zionist war pigs" polemic crap that has been littering this thread for a while now.

That is also bearing false witness against you brethren AVO . . no such thing has occured. All that is being revealed is the biases of those who are pro-Israel who resort to such polemics as you exhibit above.

It is exactly how Bernstein said responses to facts regarding Zionist culpability would be responded to.

It is only in your mind that such "Zionist war pigs" polemic crap exists. It does not exist in our posts.

Maybe you need to step away from the thread as it is apparent you have lost the ability to be objective about this subject or to objectively read my posts.

Present whatever side you want, but as a moderator I am obligated to put a stop to ad hominem and guilty by association logical fallacies when I see them.

Then quit engaging in them yourself, for that is all you are doing. So, when you post here as a member, are you acting in your official capacity as a mod? Or are you acting as a member? Which are you acting as when you engage in ad hominem logical fallacy as you have above?

Your posts are full of logical fallacies because of your bias for Zionist Israel and against those who stand against her agenda and acts.

And posting a treaty between the Vatican and Israel both recognizing each other's legitimacy is a strawman?

Now you are creating more strawman arguments. I did not address such a posting of a treaty. I did not accuse you of a strawman for posting of a treaty.

I think it is about as germain to this conversation as any thing that has been posted....particularly if you are a Catholic and you espouse a view that Israel has no legitimate right to exist.

Again, more false accusations! Why such atagonism in your posts AVO if you are really paying attention to what I say?

This is nothing more than yet another strawman. Nowhere have I advocated that Israel does not have a legitimate right to exist. You are fabricating arguments to attack . . . they don't fall much short of calling me anti-semitic. . .another of the attacks used by pro-zionists that Berstein said would be common. This is nothing more than an attempt to discredit what I have said without any legitimate basis for doing so.

All you are doing is engaging in ad hominem and other logical fallacies AVO . . what you say it is your duty to stand against.

It does, the Pope says so, and the picking and choosing what to believe should stop.

And the strawman continues. . . . . . No one is disagreeing with the Pope here AVO . . at least not me regardless of your false accusations.

If you are Catholic and wish to express your disapproval of what you feel are heavy handed measures taken by Israel, feel free. To say they don't have a right to exist as a nation, regardless of the circumstances surrounding how it came to be, is reckless and irresponsible.

And the strawman continues . . . . and the ad hominems continue . . just more logically fallacious argumentation AVO . . nothing more . . Honestly, I expected better than this.

.

 

[FrenchAffair]

How is this even a question, I do not understand. Us Palestinians are people too, our children are human, our wives are human, our brothers are human, our mothers, our fathers, our sisters, our sons, we are all human. The question is not “deserve” the question is giving us the fundamental human right to self determination, the right that Jews fled the slaughter of Europe to our shores for.
Palestinians as a people, as a history, as a culture, as a society date back before the time of the Romans to the very man who gave birth to the 12 tribes. Palestinians do not “deserve” we demand, demand the rights that are afforded to all humans on the basic principle that we are human.

Just as the south of Africa was plagued with colonial racism, apartheid and oppression today so is the land of Palestine. The native people are margalized, forced off their land. Our livelihood is uprooted, our homes destroyed, our people beaten and oppressed. All this so Jews can have their self determination, and the question is do we “deserve” it?

The question should be do the Zionist deserve to stay once our land is liberated.

 

[KarrieTex]

How is this even a question, I do not understand. Us Palestinians are people too, our children are human, our wives are human, our brothers are human, our mothers, our fathers, our sisters, our sons, we are all human. The question is not “deserve” the question is giving us the fundamental human right to self determination, the right that Jews fled the slaughter of Europe to our shores for.
Palestinians as a people, as a history, as a culture, as a society date back before the time of the Romans to the very man who gave birth to the 12 tribes. Palestinians do not “deserve” we demand, demand the rights that are afforded to all humans on the basic principle that we are human.

Just as the south of Africa was plagued with colonial racism, apartheid and oppression today so is the land of Palestine. The native people are margalized, forced off their land. Our livelihood is uprooted, our homes destroyed, our people beaten and oppressed. All this so Jews can have their self determination, and the question is do we “deserve” it?

The question should be do the Zionist deserve to stay once our land is liberated.

Except the Jews were given the Convenant to the land that they are and you were not.

It is NOT your land.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

How is this even a question, I do not understand. Us Palestinians are people too, our children are human, our wives are human, our brothers are human, our mothers, our fathers, our sisters, our sons, we are all human. The question is not “deserve” the question is giving us the fundamental human right to self determination, the right that Jews fled the slaughter of Europe to our shores for.
Palestinians as a people, as a history, as a culture, as a society date back before the time of the Romans to the very man who gave birth to the 12 tribes. Palestinians do not “deserve” we demand, demand the rights that are afforded to all humans on the basic principle that we are human.

Just as the south of Africa was plagued with colonial racism, apartheid and oppression today so is the land of Palestine. The native people are margalized, forced off their land. Our livelihood is uprooted, our homes destroyed, our people beaten and oppressed. All this so Jews can have their self determination, and the question is do we “deserve” it?

The question should be do the Zionist deserve to stay once our land is liberated.

And quite frankly, until you Palestinians settle down, and quit sending suicide bombers into Israel to maim and kill innocent civilians, there are several things that will continue to take place.

1. You will NOT be taken seriously on the world stage, because this suicide bombers are uncivilized savages.
2. You will NOT see an end to Israeli retaliation.


I'd strongly suggest that you accept the fact that Palestinians need to come into the 21st Century. Israel has the right to exist as a sovereign nation. Stop trying to annihilate them, and life will be MUCH better for you!

 

[FrenchAffair]

Except the Jews were given the Convenant to the land that they are and you were not.

It is NOT your land.

"Except the Jews were given the Convenant to the land that they are and you were not. - KarrieTex"

So every Palestinian should be rounded up and sent off to camps, taking the land that has been in our families for hundreds of generations away from us so some seudo-religious Jews from American can come and live in a nice house? You are stating this opinion on two false assumptions, the first is that God gave the land to the Jews. The second is that he said to kick everyone off that wasn’t Jewish. A simple examination of the word of God as he has given it to us though his Holy Bible illustrates how wrong those assumptions are.

I ask you this question though, what gave you the land you live on?


It is NOT your land. - KarrieTex

Why is it not our land? My fathers family lived in the same house in Sur Baher for 500 years, they have farmed the land since the times of the crusades. It was the house I was born into, it was the house my father was born into, the house his fathers father was born into and so on and so on. The land around was once farmed by my fathers family and over time became a small town, into a village and finally a suburb.

How is this not our land? We have the deed from the British Mandate, we have the deed from the Palestinian Authority, we have the deed from the Ottoman Empire. The legal ownership of the land goes back over 300 years that can be proven explicitly with documentation. Another 400 years on top of that can be shown that our family lived on the land.

This was the land that my grandfather fought in the British army against Nazi Germany for, it was the land that my great grandfather fought in the Ottoman Army for. It is the land that for generation after generation the men and women of my fathers family had put their blood into, the land they loved, that they grew up on and that they passed down to their children.

All this taken away i n a single night, a single night when the Israeli tanks, the Israeli bulldozers, the Israeli soldiers came. They gave us 72 hours, 72 hours to take all we could of 700 years of history pack it up and they put us, with 500 other residences of the area in trucks and shipped us off to refugee camps, where they dropped us off in the middle and left. I was 6 years old and it was not in till I was 12 that I saw the land that generation after generation of my family called home. It was no longer the peaceful town that had existed for hundreds of year. It was part of an Israeli settlement, our homes destroyed, the history of my family burred under an Israeli settlement.

You tell me how this is just? How you justify this and how this is not our land?

My story is not an exception, it is the daily norm. Everyday Palestinians have their homes taken from them, their land uprooted, their livelihood destroyed, their lives shattered. For what? For Israeli settlements, for Israeli bases, for Israeli roads, for Israeli walls and most of the time for nothing at all.

 

[icedtea]

What would've been wrong with making Israel a state, but allowing all there to stay and the Jews whose ancestors lived there return? There was enough room, yes?
Is the state the people? Some in America don't believe Bush represents them.

 

[FrenchAffair]

And quite frankly, until you Palestinians settle down, and quit sending suicide bombers into Israel to maim and kill innocent civilians, there are several things that will continue to take place.

1. You will NOT be taken seriously on the world stage, because this suicide bombers are uncivilized savages.
2. You will NOT see an end to Israeli retaliation.


I'd strongly suggest that you accept the fact that Palestinians need to come into the 21st Century. Israel has the right to exist as a sovereign nation. Stop trying to annihilate them, and life will be MUCH better for you!

"quite frankly, until you Palestinians settle down, and quit sending suicide bombers into Israel" -ParsonJefferson

For a decade after the Israeli invasion Palestinians lived in peace. That peace brought about more Israeli settlements, harsher occupation, more land taken from Palestinians.

Finally the Palestinian people had enough and engaged in active resistance against the Israeli occupation. There have been peace talks, there has been ceasefires. But in till every settlement is uprooted and returned, in till the occupation of Gaza, East Jerusalem and West Bank is ended, in till the blockade of Palestine by Israel exists no longer Palestinians have every right and duty to resist the occupier.

Israel has no intention of giving Palestinians any freedom, no intention of returning the land, allowing the right of return, compensating Palestinians whose lives they have destroyed. The only way that Israel will end its oppression and occupation of the Palestinian people is if we force them to. Though both political means and armed resistance.

South Africa has shown that one cannot work without the other as leverage.

"You will NOT be taken seriously on the world stage, because this suicide bombers are uncivilized savages. -ParsonJefferson"

How is a suicide bomber any less savage than an Israeli bullet or bomb? Israeli tactics are far more deadly and enact a far greater toll on civilian life than Palestinian suicide bombers have.

"Israel has the right to exist as a sovereign nation.-ParsonJefferson"

That how ever does not give them the right to oppress, occupy and deny Palestinians their human and civil rights.

 

[icedtea]

So if America refused aid unless they made a 'fair' state, they would? if not, then what?
Interesting thread.

 

[KarrieTex]

"Except the Jews were given the Convenant to the land that they are and you were not. - KarrieTex"

So every Palestinian should be rounded up and sent off to camps, taking the land that has been in our families for hundreds of generations away from us so some seudo-religious Jews from American can come and live in a nice house? You are stating this opinion on two false assumptions, the first is that God gave the land to the Jews. The second is that he said to kick everyone off that wasn’t Jewish. A simple examination of the word of God as he has given it to us though his Holy Bible illustrates how wrong those assumptions are.

I ask you this question though, what gave you the land you live on?


It is NOT your land. - KarrieTex

Why is it not our land? My fathers family lived in the same house in Sur Baher for 500 years, they have farmed the land since the times of the crusades. It was the house I was born into, it was the house my father was born into, the house his fathers father was born into and so on and so on. The land around was once farmed by my fathers family and over time became a small town, into a village and finally a suburb.

How is this not our land? We have the deed from the British Mandate, we have the deed from the Palestinian Authority, we have the deed from the Ottoman Empire. The legal ownership of the land goes back over 300 years that can be proven explicitly with documentation. Another 400 years on top of that can be shown that our family lived on the land.

This was the land that my grandfather fought in the British army against Nazi Germany for, it was the land that my great grandfather fought in the Ottoman Army for. It is the land that for generation after generation the men and women of my fathers family had put their blood into, the land they loved, that they grew up on and that they passed down to their children.

All this taken away i n a single night, a single night when the Israeli tanks, the Israeli bulldozers, the Israeli soldiers came. They gave us 72 hours, 72 hours to take all we could of 700 years of history pack it up and they put us, with 500 other residences of the area in trucks and shipped us off to refugee camps, where they dropped us off in the middle and left. I was 6 years old and it was not in till I was 12 that I saw the land that generation after generation of my family called home. It was no longer the peaceful town that had existed for hundreds of year. It was part of an Israeli settlement, our homes destroyed, the history of my family burred under an Israeli settlement.

You tell me how this is just? How you justify this and how this is not our land?

My story is not an exception, it is the daily norm. Everyday Palestinians have their homes taken from them, their land uprooted, their livelihood destroyed, their lives shattered. For what? For Israeli settlements, for Israeli bases, for Israeli roads, for Israeli walls and most of the time for nothing at all.

There are no false assumptions. GOD gave ABRAHAM the convenant for the child of SARAH'S WOMB not HAGAR.

Also, until your people (if that is what they are) stop killing themselves because they don't like the president in office, killing Jews because gasp they are Jews, and funding other terrorists groups to MURDER other Christians then don't you talk to me about what you think you deserve.

YOUR country...oh wait Palastine is NOT a country but a region...stops declaring war on Israel then maybe you can be whole. You want war well defeat is part of it.

My family did not burn alive in an oven for YOUR people to strap CHILDREN with bombs and get on a bus to maim and kill as many Jews as you can just because they are Jews.

 

[icedtea]

After reading all this, and my bible, I have to conclude (in my opinion) the Palestinians are the terrorists, and God most definitely gave that land (and more than they have now) to Israel. Zionist or nonzionists.

 

[FrenchAffair]

Yeah...the Palestinian government is *all* about takin' care of the Palestinian people...

Rival Zionist groups in the British Mandate fought each other quite often. No one is saying that the Palestinian nation is perfect, that as soon as Israel leaves we will be a paradise. But what is being said is that we demand the right to self determination, to build or destroy our nation due to our choices. Will a Palestine free of Israeli occupation, free of Israeli Apartheid, free of Israeli settlers and solider be transformed into a paradise overnight? Of course not, but it will allow the Palestinian people to control their own destiny, it will allow us to begin and try to build a nation. It will give us the possibility to justice and freedom, none of which can occur as long as Israel occupies our land, oppresses our people and divides the nation.

 

[icedtea]

Did I hear wrong, or weren't the palestinians offered land bck in 48 but refused just to be martyrs.?

 

[christinepro]

Why did the Palestinians trash the properties after Arial Sharon gave them the occupied territories? I actually believed that Yasser Arafat wanted peace but when I saw the people wrecking everything that was given to them I kind of lost respect. I hope it wasn't the majority of Palestinians that wrecked their new houses but it sure looked bad on the news.

 

[FrenchAffair]

Karrietex, there is no reason to be uncivil. We are both adults; please let us keep this a civil conversation.

I would like to readdress several questions which I asked you in the previous post that you have left unanswered.

The first is;
What gave you the land you live on?
What should be done with the Palestinian people?
And
How do you justify the occupation, destruction and theft of Palestinian land?

“There are no false assumptions. GOD gave ABRAHAM the convenant for the child of SARAH'S WOMB not HAGAR. - KarrieTex”

Yes, this is the assumption of a small minority of Christians known more commonly as “Christian Zionists”. However let us examine the Abrahamic Covenant in the words of God.

The covenant with Abraham begins in Genesis 2. The covenant began with Gods creation of paradise, represented in the garden of eden. Thiwa s the place where people could receive all of God’s blessings and commune in fellowship with him. This is where the image of land begins in the bible, This land of paradise was lost in the fall, but a foretaste of heaven is reflected in the imagery of the promise made to Abraham.

The Lord had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. Genesis 12:1

In Geneis 15:18 God is more specific and indicates the extent of the land, "On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates". This prophecy has been fulfilled in so far as Ishmael’s descendants do indeed extend throughout the Middle East. Neither Ishmael nor Isaac had been born with this promise was given. In Genesis 17 the promise is repeated and amplified.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless. 2I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers." 3Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4"As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God." Genesis 17:1-8

The promise that God is going to give access to the land again is restated to Moses and the land is described as flowing with milk and honey, in Exodus 3:8 and a number of other passages in the Pentateuch.

So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey--the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. Exodus 3:8


These images are paradigms. The land of the Bible is not and never ever did flow with milk and honey. It is a beautiful land but the biblical imagery points to a restored paradise in the future. From the very beginning this Old Covenant shadow would have to wait for the New Covenant for the actual fulfilment of the promise. The land in the Old Covenant was not an end in itself.

The tabernacle, the place of worship in the Old Covenant was never intended to have a settled location in God's plan of redemption. It pointed to Christ who would tabernacle among His people in the incarnation and since Pentecost through the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. The sacrificial system could never atone for sins but only foreshadow the ultimate sacrifice of the sinless, perfect Son of God. So the patriarch Abraham receives the promise of the land but he himself never possessed it. This is not to spiritualise the promise away. It will ultimately be experienced in paradise. This was the promise of the covenant, not the permanent and everlasting possession of the Middle East. In Hebrews 11 we learn that by this non-possession the patriarch learned to look forward to the city with foundations whose architect is God. This is the only legitimate interpretation of the Abrahamic Covenant.

For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. 13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. Hebrews 11:10-16

It is important to stress once again, in Hebrews, heavenly does not mean allegorical or spiritual or non-literal. It is just the reverse, as C.S. Lewis tries to describe in Great Divorce, the heavenly is the consummate true state of things, it is the consummate true reality. In the same way, the heavenly Jerusalem, the heavenly city for which the Patriarchs were looking is not a nebulous ethereal idea. It is the ultimate reality which we can only foretaste in our present state.

It is significant to note at this early stage in Genesis how the role of Jerusalem is central. Abraham paid tithes to Melchizadeck, the priest king of Jerusalem (Genesis 14:20). At this significant place Abraham offered his son Isaac as an offering to God (Genesis 22). But in both these shadowy events pointed to the greater realities of the New Covenant, ultimately realised in the heavenly priesthood of Christ after the order of Mechizadeck (Hebrews 7) and the once for all sacrifice of the Son of God at Calvary.

One more thing about the Land. The Land never belongs to Israel in the Torah. The Land belongs to God. Land cannot be permanently bought or sold. It cannot be permanently given away, let alone stolen or confiscated. The Land is never at the disposal of Israel for its national purposes. Instead it is Israel who are at the disposal of God's purposes. The Jews remain tenants in God's Land.

The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. Leviticus 25:23

There are four aspects to the Abrahamic covenant. Any interpretation of the land aspect of the Abrahamic covenant cannot be divorced from the other strands of the covenant. As Christians we have no difficulty in seeing the fulfilment of the promise in the person and work of Jesus Christ. In Him God has indeed first, blessed people of all nations, second, by drawing them into a covenant relationship with God in which, third, there is now neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, members of one holy nation. If these three strands of the one covenant find their fulfilment in Christ in His Church, how can we put the promise concerning the land into a totally different category?

Don't be misled by the statement God made to Abraham that the land would be "an everlasting possession." Insisting on literal fulfilment is a double-edged sword. In 1 Chronicles 15:2, for example, David insists that the Levites would carry the ark of the Lord and minister before Him for ever. Is that being fulfilled literally on earth or figuratively in Christ? In 1 Chronicles 23:13 God promises that the Aaronic priesthood would continue "for ever". Is that being fulfilled literally now on earth or figuratively in Christ? In 2 Chronicles 33:7 God says that he has put his name in the temple in Jerusalem for ever. Is that being fulfilled literally now on earth or figuratively in Christ and the Church? In 1 Chronicles 23:25, God promises that He has come to dwell in Jerusalem for ever. Is that being fulfilled literally now on earth or figuratively in Christ and the Church? Likewise in 2 Samuel 7:12-16, God promises that a descendent of David will sit on his throne for ever. Is that being fulfilled literally on earth or figuratively in Christ? Let me address another form of wooden literalism Christian Zionists are particularly partial to.

You will find some who insist that because the Jews have never literally occupied the entire land promised to Abraham, from the Nile to the Euphrates, this promise must still await future fulfilment. Hence their support not only for the settlement of the West Bank but the rest of the Middle East. Such reasoning ignores the way the Old Testament writers themselves understood the promise made to Abraham. God reaffirmed that same promise to Joshua.

Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give them. (Joshua 1,6)

The question then arises, did Israel do so? While it is true that, notwithstanding the aspiration depicted on the modern Israeli national flag, the Jews have never exercised political sovereignty over all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates. Nevertheless the Book of Joshua makes clear that the covenant promise was indeed regarded as having been fulfilled in that generation.

So Joshua took the entire land, just as the LORD had directed Moses, and he gave it as an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal divisions. Then the land had rest from war. (Joshua 11,23)

So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. Not one of all the Lord's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled. (Joshua 21,43-45)

It is significant that we are told Joshua took 'the entire land' because the Lord had given 'Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers'. To the claim that certain promises have yet to be fulfilled, Joshua is emphatic, 'Not one of all the Lord's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.'

Likewise, Nehemiah, writing after the second exile, looked back to the first exile and could testify in praise to God for the fulfilment of the promises made to Abraham,

You gave them kingdoms and nations, allotting to them even the remotest frontiers... You made their sons as numerous as the stars in the sky, and you brought them into the land that you told their fathers to enter and possess. (Nehemiah 9,22-23)

These passages record the first re-gathering of the Israelites to the Promised Land. Nehemiah even refers in the past tense to the fulfilment of the metaphorical promise to make Abraham's descendants 'as numerous as the stars in the sky' (cf. Genesis 22:17). Since the promise given to Abraham concerning the Land is to be understood as intimately bound up with the covenant relationship with and blessings for all peoples of the world, to insist on an interpretation that now gives people of Jewish origin an exclusive title deed to Palestine in perpetuity runs contrary both to the promise itself within its Old Covenant context as well as its New Covenant fulfilment. The four strands of the Abrahamic covenant comprise a package deal and are interwoven together not only in pre-figurement and in their fulfilment in and through Christ.

 

[FrenchAffair]

"killing Jews because gasp they are Jews, and funding other terrorists groups to MURDER other Christians then don't you talk to me about what you think you deserve. -Karrietex"

The people of Palestine have lived side by side peacefully for hundreds of years. Jew, Muslim, Christian.... all three have populated this land and all three hold it holy. It has only been since the introduction of European Zionism that the conflict has arisen.

Perhaps if the Zionist were to end the occupation, oppression and apartheid the rational for killing and the motives and incentive for Palestinians to engage in armed conflict with Israel would significantly drop.

Neither side is without blame, both Israel and Palestine have to work together. But it is not a one way street and Palestine is not to bear the blame. Many Palestinians have taken their plight of liberation to an extreme, this is what we must deal with. But at the same time the oppression, persecution, ethnic cleansing and occupation of Palestine must come to an end before Palestinians can turn their attention onto themselves

“YOUR country...oh wait Palastine is NOT a country but a region -Karrietex”

Palestine is a nation, a people, a culture, a history and a future. That cannot be taken away from us.

 

[FrenchAffair]

From hte looks of things...ya don't need Israel to divide the palestinian people....doin' that all on their own...

Your level of analysis of the situation and abridged conclusions brought from it can only lead me to the logical conclusion that you are being facetious.

If you wish to enter into a conversion on the issue I am more than willing to. However your cartoons making light of the tragic situation in Palestine and the plight of millions of Palestinians is insulting and quite frankly offensive as you are posting them simply to bait and insult.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Not to bait and insult...but to prove the point that Palestine's problem isn't truly Isreal and the Jews, but within their own failure to accept UN Conditions in 1949 and take responsibility for their own self government. Nearly 60 years later, they still aren't able or willing to cooperate, even with themselves, to have a land and nation of their own.

While being somewhat facetious and sarcastic...the truth is nevertheless there.

 

[FrenchAffair]

Not to bait and insult...but to prove the point that Palestine's problem isn't truly Isreal and the Jews, but within their own failure to accept UN Conditions in 1949 and take responsibility for their own self government. Nearly 60 years later, they still aren't able or willing to cooperate, even with themselves, to have a land and nation of their own.

While being somewhat facetious and sarcastic...the truth is nevertheless there.

The is like saying “The Jews problem wasn’t the Nazi, but that they couldn’t find their way out of the gas chambers”.

If there was no Israel would there be a Fatah? Would there be a Hamas? Would there be a conflict in Gaza?
You are not a stupid women, do not pretend to be naïve. The current conflict is not simply “savage Palestinians enacting their barbaric nature”. It is the culmination of a complex set of cirimstances and situations that have occurred over the past 30 years. No one in the region is without a part to play, including most of all Israel.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Most of all Palestine, for rejecting the proposal of the UN to keep nearly 60% of their land intact if htey would just form a centralized government...

didn't wanna do it...

but continue to blame the Jews instead of themselves...and NOW want to claim that it's because of Israel...not because of their own apathy...

not buying it. sorry