They Deserve a State ??

Gwenyfur said:

Yep, us poor Jews shouldn't have the land of our forefathers...we shoulda been smart enough to run for the furnaces and gas chambers of the concentration camps and rid the world of all it's troubles....after all if y'all got rid of the jews, you'd be rid of everything wrong in the world [/snarkiness]

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snicker snicker...i think i like you.

HowardDean said:

Antarctica? (sorry)

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Well, the Emperor and Adelie penguins seem to get along well enough, but them leopard seals are always knocking on the door of a hostile takeover.

thereselittleflower said:

I want to know why everyone here is griping about Palestinian terrorism when Zionist terrorism defended and obvioulsy perfectly OK according to the logic above, yet Palestinians are not allowed to use the same methods to found their own statehood?

Such hypocrisy!!!!


.

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How many Israelis strap C4 to their chest and blow themselves to smithereens in a crowded market? Hypocrisy indeed.

Gwenyfur said:

wow...and you can't see the difference of 60 years!???

The last recorded Zionist terrorist act was in 1949, 3 weeks before Israel was recognized as a legitimate nation with a legitimate government...

Palestine...wait! They aren't even a nation yet, and they're killing each other off...hrmmm what was I thinking!

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1948 my friend on May 14th.

And my GERMAN JEWISH RELATIVES were right there helping it along.

Kinda like that part of my heirtage, German Jewish Cousins after they went through that hell helping to lay the foundation of their country.

OH and as Job says, "the Lord gives and takes away." Guess God gave HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE back their land.

[FONT=&quot] The UN gave the palestinians a chance for their own country...they didn't want it then[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]The [/FONT]“[FONT=&quot]US gave them a chance[/FONT]”…[FONT=&quot]. A chance for what? It was their land, they lived on it and the Zionist came and though the barrel of the gun forced them of and forcibly landed more white European setters.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] The Palestinians did not want half their land being given to White European Settlers who for the previous 20 years had been wagering a war of terrorism and ethnic cleansing against both the Palestinian people and the British authority. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] if jews lay down their weapons...there'd be no more jews....[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot] When every Zionist is cleared from the shores of Palestine God will smile and the heavens will rejoice. The day is coming, do not be so confident. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] and the innocent jewish children aren't worthy of defense? how many jewish women and children[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot] Ah, so now we see your true ideology. The Arabs are not human, but the [/FONT]“[FONT=&quot]Jews[/FONT]”[FONT=&quot] are holier than thou. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] adn that's any different than the founding of any other country on the planet how?[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot] ……… are you serious? Please, open up a grade 6 history book and gain some perspective. “Other countries” in modern era have not done to people what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians. Unless we go to a place like Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa, Communist Russia, Khmer Rouge…. Good company you support. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

hrmmm now for a biblical perspective on zionism:

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[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] None of those verse have anything to do with modern Zionism, or the modern secular and socialist state of Israel. [/FONT]

21 When the king of Israel saw them, he asked Elisha, "Shall I kill them, my father? Shall I kill them?"
22 "Do not kill them," he answered. "Would you kill men you have captured with your own sword or bow? Set food and water before them so that they may eat and drink and then go back to their master." 23 So he prepared a great feast for them, and after they had finished eating and drinking, he sent them away, and they returned to their master. So the bands from Aram stopped raiding Israel's territory. 2 Kings 6:21-23



9 But a prophet of the LORD named Oded was there, and he went out to meet the army when it returned to Samaria. He said to them, "Because the LORD, the God of your fathers, was angry with Judah, he gave them into your hand. But you have slaughtered them in a rage that reaches to heaven. 10 And now you intend to make the men and women of Judah and Jerusalem your slaves. But aren't you also guilty of sins against the LORD your God? 11 Now listen to me! Send back your fellow countrymen you have taken as prisoners, for the LORD's fierce anger rests on you." 2 Chronicles 28:9-11



7 I pondered them in my mind and then accused the nobles and officials. I told them, "You are exacting usury from your own countrymen!" So I called together a large meeting to deal with them 8 and said: "As far as possible, we have bought back our Jewish brothers who were sold to the Gentiles. Now you are selling your brothers, only for them to be sold back to us!" They kept quiet, because they could find nothing to say.
9 So I continued, "What you are doing is not right. Shouldn't you walk in the fear of our God to avoid the reproach of our Gentile enemies? 10 I and my brothers and my men are also lending the people money and grain. But let the exacting of usury stop! 11 Give back to them immediately their fields, vineyards, olive groves and houses, and also the usury you are charging them—the hundredth part of the money, grain, new wine and oil." Nehemiah 5:7-11



11 But afterward they changed their minds and took back the slaves they had freed and enslaved them again.
12 Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 13 "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: I made a covenant with your forefathers when I brought them out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. I said, 14 'Every seventh year each of you must free any fellow Hebrew who has sold himself to you. After he has served you six years, you must let him go free.' [a] Your fathers, however, did not listen to me or pay attention to me. 15 Recently you repented and did what is right in my sight: Each of you proclaimed freedom to his countrymen. You even made a covenant before me in the house that bears my Name. 16 But now you have turned around and profaned my name; each of you has taken back the male and female slaves you had set free to go where they wished. You have forced them to become your slaves again.
17 "Therefore, this is what the LORD says: You have not obeyed me; you have not proclaimed freedom for your fellow countrymen. So I now proclaim 'freedom' for you, declares the LORD -'freedom' to fall by the sword, plague and famine. I will make you abhorrent to all the kingdoms of the earth. Jeremiah 34:11-17



Amos 2:6-7

[FONT=&quot]6 This is what the LORD says:
"For three sins of Israel,
even for four, I will not turn back {my wrath}.
They sell the righteous for silver,
and the needy for a pair of sandals. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]They trample on the heads of the poor
as upon the dust of the ground
and deny justice to the oppressed.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Father and son use the same girl
and so profane my holy name.[/FONT]

49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you." (Exodus 12:49 )



"Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.” (Exodus 22:21)



Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9)



33And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:33-34)



And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee. (Leviticus 25:35)



8He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. 19Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. (Deuteronomy 10:18-19)

7Thou shalt not abhor an Edomite; for he is thy brother: thou shalt not abhor an Egyptian; because thou wast a stranger in his land.( Deuteronomy 23:7)



17Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge (Deuteronomy 24:17)



19Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen. (Deuteronomy 27:19)





Israel spits in the face of God, they desecrate the commandments of God, they take his name in vain, they abuse it, degrade it and use it to justify acts of murder, oppression, ethnic cleansing, genocide.



God curses Israel and all those who support the abomination.



Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews (Revelation 3:9)

the prophet advocated the surrender of Israel’s territory to the King of Babylon, in return for peace


Jeremiah 27:6-17

6And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him. 7And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him.
8And it shall come to pass, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve the same Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and that will not put their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation will I punish, saith the LORD, with the sword, and with the famine, and with the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.
9Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon:
10For they prophesy a lie unto you, to remove you far from your land; and that I should drive you out, and ye should perish.
11But the nations that bring their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him, those will I let remain still in their own land, saith the LORD; and they shall till it, and dwell therein.
12I spake also to Zedekiah king of Judah according to all these words, saying, Bring your necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him and his people, and live.
13Why will ye die, thou and thy people, by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence, as the LORD hath spoken against the nation that will not serve the king of Babylon?
14Therefore hearken not unto the words of the prophets that speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon: for they prophesy a lie unto you.
15For I have not sent them, saith the LORD, yet they prophesy a lie in my name; that I might drive you out, and that ye might perish, ye, and the prophets that prophesy unto you.
16Also I spake to the priests and to all this people, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Hearken not to the words of your prophets that prophesy unto you, saying, Behold, the vessels of the LORD's house shall now shortly be brought again from Babylon: for they prophesy a lie unto you.
17Hearken not unto them; serve the king of Babylon, and live: wherefore should this city be laid waste?

I am looking for the biblical passage where God gave Israel a bill of divorce and put her out.

Amor Vincit Omnia said:

I am looking for the biblical passage where God gave Israel a bill of divorce and put her out.

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I would like to see that one too.

Amor Vincit Omnia said:

I am looking for the biblical passage where God gave Israel a bill of divorce and put her out.

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It is true that God gave Palestine to Hebrews in ancient times. But the Bible teaches that their possession of the land was under a conditional covenant with Jehovah. If the Hebrews disobeyed their God, they would lose the land.

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Matthew 21:43)


23Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 24Son of man, they that inhabit those wastes of the land of Israel speak, saying, Abraham was one, and he inherited the land: but we are many; the land is given us for inheritance.
25Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land?
26Ye stand upon your sword, ye work abomination, and ye defile every one his neighbour's wife: and shall ye possess the land?
27Say thou thus unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; As I live, surely they that are in the wastes shall fall by the sword, and him that is in the open field will I give to the beasts to be devoured, and they that be in the forts and in the caves shall die of the pestilence.
28For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease; and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through.
29Then shall they know that I am the LORD, when I have laid the land most desolate because of all their abominations which they have committed. (Ezekiel 33:23-29)






9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. (Genesis 17:9-14)



4Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (Exodus 19:4-5)



40If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD. (Leviticus 26:40-45)



12Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers: (Deuteronomy 7:12)



15Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
16When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you. (Joshua 23:15-16)



6But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
7Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
8And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?
9And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil. (1 Kings 9:6-9)



19But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
20Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.
21And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house?
22And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them. (2 Chronicles 7:19-22)


12Therefore the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
13Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; I made a covenant with your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondmen, saying,
14At the end of seven years let ye go every man his brother an Hebrew, which hath been sold unto thee; and when he hath served thee six years, thou shalt let him go free from thee: but your fathers hearkened not unto me, neither inclined their ear.
15And ye were now turned, and had done right in my sight, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbour; and ye had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name:
16But ye turned and polluted my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom he had set at liberty at their pleasure, to return, and brought them into subjection, to be unto you for servants and for handmaids.
17Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ye have not hearkened unto me, in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother, and every man to his neighbour: behold, I proclaim a liberty for you, saith the LORD, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
18And I will give the men that have transgressed my covenant, which have not performed the words of the covenant which they had made before me, when they cut the calf in twain, and passed between the parts thereof,
19The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and all the people of the land, which passed between the parts of the calf;
20I will even give them into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of them that seek their life: and their dead bodies shall be for meat unto the fowls of the heaven, and to the beasts of the earth.
21And Zedekiah king of Judah and his princes will I give into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of them that seek their life, and into the hand of the king of Babylon's army, which are gone up from you.
22Behold, I will command, saith the LORD, and cause them to return to this city; and they shall fight against it, and take it, and burn it with fire: and I will make the cities of Judah a desolation without an inhabitant. (Jeremiah 34:12-22)

Every time anyone came agains tthem, even when unprepared and it looked like the end, miraculously they came out victorious.
Doesn't it seem as if God really is defending them?

Here are some official statements from various churches in the US concerning Zionism:

Presbyterian Church: "Christian Zionism promotes a theology that justifies grievous violations of basic rights of people who are also made in the image of God, and is contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ."

United Church of Christ: "We believe that the tenets of Christian Zionism neither reflect the intention of the teachings of Jesus and the prophets, nor promote peace in the Middle East, and respectfully recommend …and alternative voice to this theology."

Mennonite Church: "A widespread but erroneous belief is that Christian Zionists…read Daniel and Revelation literally. They do not. No Christian Zionist applies a consistently literal interpretation to Revelation. No one has suggested that Jesus was really a lamb."

Evangelical Lutheran Church: “"…the movement of Christian Zionism based on these biblical interpretations seeks to influence U.S. policy toward Israel in a manner that would arguably facilitate mistreatment of Palestinians, continued occupation of the land, opposition to a two-state solution, and exclusive Israeli control of Jerusalem”

United Methodist Church: "…every …household should give prayerful consideration as to how God will actually judge us for our silence about and complicity in the crushing of the Palestinian people…"

Episcopal Church: "A partial response to Christian Zionism would be to say that we read Scripture in light of [Jesus'] two great commandments - to love God and our neighbor."

Catholic Church: “The Holy Catholic Church as the body of Christians on this earth cannot accept the denial of national and individual rights of the Palestinians, it is time to return to the principles of international legality: the banning of acquisition of territory by force, the right of people to self determination, respect for the resolutions of the United Nations and the Geneva convention. We as Christians are commanded to follow the commandments of Jesus Christ, to love one another as we love ourselves. As faithfull and moral Christians we cannot support the acts of the State of Israel and we should do all that is within our power to bring peace to the holy land”

Interesting read for those of you who carry a Catholic icon and seem hell-bent on the destruction of Israel, the Vatican doesn't share your view.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/holysee.html

HowardDean said:

Every time anyone came agains tthem, even when unprepared and it looked like the end, miraculously they came out victorious.
Doesn't it seem as if God really is defending them?

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Israel’s military victories have never been miraculous, Israel defeating the Arab nations was a basic certainty due to the disportinate military power. Up in till the last 10 years no Arab nation rivaled the military power of Israel provided on a silver platter by the US.

But in the last 10 years we have seen Israel lose conflict after conflict, They lost Gaza, they lost control of much of the west bank. They lost in Lebanon in 2000 and again they lost in 2006.

The end of the cold war brought the same US military support that they gave to Israel to it’s Arab nebiours. The only reason the US supported Israel was because the Arab states were backed by the soviet union, not that the cold war by proxy is over the US sees that the Arab states are far more beneficial allies than Israel. Israel posses no natural resources, is a small little piece of land that is unimportant and their support for Israel is the cause of most of the terrorism against the US. The Arab states are situated stragitcly, possess all the oil and most of all, Islamic fundamentalism comes from these Arab states. The US will back moderate and stable Arab governments with as much military power is needed to ensure they do not fall in the hands of Islamic fundamentalism.

Combine this with the fact that in 35-50 years Arabs will outnumber Jews within Israel, the future of the Zionist entity is limited at best.




Satan has maintained Israel this long, but the will of God will prevail.

HowardDean said:

Every time anyone came agains tthem, even when unprepared and it looked like the end, miraculously they came out victorious.
Doesn't it seem as if God really is defending them?

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Amor Vincit Omnia said:

Interesting read for those of you who carry a Catholic icon and seem hell-bent on the destruction of Israel, the Vatican doesn't share your view.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/holysee.html

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The Catholic church recognizes the Palestinian state, recognizes their lawful authority over Gaza, West bank and East Jerusalem and consistently calls for the end of the occupation, the end of the apartheid wall, end of the illegal settlements. The Vatican also condemns in the strongest words Israeli military incursions and murder of innocent Arabs.

It was only 3 years ago that two Catholic priests were killed when an Israeli outpost opened fired on the car they were riding in.

MezzaMorta said:

The Catholic church recognizes the Palestinian state, recognizes their lawful authority over Gaza, West bank and East Jerusalem and consistently calls for the end of the occupation, the end of the apartheid wall, end of the illegal settlements. The Vatican also condemns in the strongest words Israeli military incursions and murder of innocent Arabs.

It was only 3 years ago that two Catholic priests were killed when an Israeli outpost opened fired on the car they were riding in.

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Nice non sequitor.

Amor Vincit Omnia said:

Nice non sequitor.

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There is no logical fallacy, the Vatican recognizes the Israeli state with in the 1967 borders, and the Palestinian state as declared in 1988 in Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem. It also condemns the illegal Israeli settlements outside the 1967 border, the abuse of Palestinians rights by Israel, the military acts resulting in massive civilian deaths by Israel (and Palestinians) as well as the occupation of Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian land by Israel.

The Catholic Church is committed to the principles and teachings of Christianity, as stated above in their official statement. As such they cannot support the illegal and immoral acts of Israel, no Christian can.

MezzaMorta said:

There is no logical fallacy, the Vatican recognizes the Israeli state with in the 1967 borders, and the Palestinian state as declared in 1988 in Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem. It also condemns the illegal Israeli settlements outside the 1967 border, the abuse of Palestinians rights by Israel, the military acts resulting in massive civilian deaths by Israel (and Palestinians) as well as the occupation of Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian land by Israel.

The Catholic Church is committed to the principles and teachings of Christianity, as stated above in their official statement. As such they cannot support the illegal and immoral acts of Israel, no Christian can.

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Now there you have it, a clear, concise, to the point, logical statement germain to the topic and void of the useless polemics that litter this discussion. Thank you for bringing it together for those of us who aren't grasping the complexity of the situation. I appreciate it.